The fascinating reformed theology paradox of Hebrew 6:4-6

[BNR32FAN]

Doesn't alter Ex 4:21. . .God kept Pharaoh from doing what he commanded him to do.

This still has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit playing tricks on people making them think they’re saved when they really aren’t. That’s a deception, the Holy Spirit does not partake in deception.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That's a good question. You're talking about Hebrews 6:4-6, right?

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. (Heb 6:4–6)​

I'm sure if I studied it and submitted to the guidance of the Holy Spirit that I could give you a solid answer. But in the meantime, I am one hundred percent confident that it is not talking about the possibility that what I have with Christ may be perishable.

If you see eternal life as perishable, please answer a question I have asked several times on this forum but have not received any answers.

Hypothetically, if a person gains eternal life then loses it, is there any way he can he get it back again?

The answer in the two passages from Hebrews that are favord by those who believe salvation is perihable seems to be "no". Here, it says, "it is impossible... to renew them again to repentance", and in Hebrews 10:26 it says of them, "there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins".

I'd like an answer from anyone who does not believe in eternal security.

Yes absolutely, a person can always repent and be saved. We never lose that option as long as we live. Are you familiar with James 5:19-20?

”My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.“
‭‭James‬ ‭5‬:‭19‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[concretecamper]

Ahh so why do Mafia members attend church?

They are not professed non-believers. Grave sinners, maybe.

Many Catholic Churches won’t marry a Catholic and an atheist

They must receive the Petrine Privilege.

So the atheist has to pretend to believe in the Catholic faith to get married which would include baptism if the person had never been baptized before

Not true, see above

Politicians love to parade around pretending to be Christians, it’s good for business

So, I know non-politicians who do the same

These are all viable situations that happen in the real world which brings about the legitimate question are they saved when they are baptized?

You have not supplied 1 example. All the examples you gave DO NOT address a non-believer desiring Baptism.

 

[LoveofTruth]

He is talking to Hebrews, God's chosen people, warning them they will miss out on salvation if they don't put all their trust in Christ and rest from their works.

No, this is not who he is talking to. While they may be Hebrews they were saved people who have Christ, read the verses I gave again it is very clear and the writer includes himself in the warning.

It is soo clear I marvel how you can not see it

“Wherefore, holy brethren, [talking to holy brethren in Christ] partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;...“But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, [the writer includes himself in this "we"] if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end...“Take heed, brethren, [believers in Jesus] lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God...[you can't depart from God unless your once with him] For we [the writer talks of himself and them again] are made partakers of Christ, if we [including himself as well] hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;” (Hebrews 3:1, 6, 12, 14 KJV)

I know this one section tears down the erroneous eternal security views …but so be it. Let all that can be shaken be shaken.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Doesn't alter Ex 4:21. . .God kept Pharaoh from doing what he commanded him to do.

We also tead,

Exodus 8: 32. “And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.”

 

[Clare73]

This still has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit playing tricks on people making them think they’re saved when they really aren’t. That’s a deception, the Holy Spirit does not partake in deception.

No deception involved. . .they failed to feed on what would have saved them.

 

[Clare73]

We also tead,

Exodus 8: 32. “And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.”

Which God could have softened as he does all whom he saves--see Saul of Tarsus--but God did not.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

He is talking to Hebrews, God's chosen people, warning them they will miss out on salvation if they don't put all their trust in Christ and rest from their works. We are a couple thousand years removed from the kingdom being taken away from them, but they were in the midst of it at the time. So, projecting our current circumstances onto them yields a particularly bad point of view.

It does appear, however, that the message of Hebrews is still appropriate. We apparently have many among us today who say they are Christians but are not steadfastly trusting Christ for the safekeeping of their souls. They are still working hard to secure or maintain their own salvation. They should take seriously the warnings of Hebrews that only those who those who steadfastly maintain full confidence in Christ "have become partakers of Christ".

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end” [The New King James Version (Heb 3:12–14). (1982). Thomas Nelson.]​

Note that "we have become" in verse 14 is a Greek perfect tense verb, indicating completed action in past time that results in a state of being, with the emphasis placed on the resulting state of being. People who "have become partakers of Christ" steadfastly continue in their confidence in Christ. We can therefore dogmatically say that people who depart from the living God with "an evil heart of unbelief" have not "become partakers of Christ".

When a person is born again, he/she becomes a partaker in a heavenly calling—an heir of God and joint heir with Christ. And that inheritance is not just a pie in the sky; it also includes our suffering with Christ (Rom. 8:17), and is conditional upon our holding our first confidence firm to the end. (Heb. 3:14).

Total apostasy from the Christian faith and Christ Himself on the part of genuine believers has been an issue of great concern throughout the entire history of the Church. Up until the 16th century, it was the unanimous view of the Church that such a scenario is not only possible, but a very frequent happening. The Ante-Nicene Church Fathers agonized over their witnessing their closest friends and relatives who had been firm in their faith and practice for years forsake all of it when overcome by temptation. And that agonizing has continued down to the present day. However, we find millions of people denying this reality thereby heaping more sorrow and agony upon the heads of those who have witnessed it—and I am one of those wittiness! I lost my best friend and brother to Satan, and saw my brother’s wife and three beautiful Christian boys suffer that agony that no one should have to bear.

However, this is not the worst of it. Satan is indescribably evil and he has put into motion something even worse! He let the doctrine of conditional salvation stand unopposed for 1,500 years and then raised up men by the millions to oppose the doctrine knowing full well the inescapable implication that the Bible was so poorly written that no one could understand it until a Frenchman named Jean Calvin came along and taught a brand new systematic theology. And, of course, if the Bible was indeed so poorly written that no one could understand it for 1,500 years, the Bible was written by men with ridiculously poor writing skills and therefore it is of human rather than divine origin making it neither inspired nor authoritative. But no! The Bible is the inspired word of God and it was so well written that it was understood (for the most part) for 1,500 years and is still understood by those persons who carefully and prayerfully read it.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Which God could have softened as he does all whom he saves--see Saul of Tarsus--but God did not.

God gave all men the true Light that lighteth every man and this is to “convict” them at first reprove them. All things that are reproved are made manifest by the light . This seed given is the word down in the heart if they heard aand received him they would have life .

Gid calls all men everywhere to repent and Jesus said ,

Matthew 23: 37. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!”

Isaiah 5: 4. What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes? 5. And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:”

God does not force men to believe. He does so much to bring all to him …but they would not all come.

Isaiah 66: 2. For all those things hath mine hand made, and those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. 3. He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. 4. I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.”

 

[Danthemailman]

"Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you." I'm sticking with the Bible.

Keep reading - "not the removal of dirt from the flesh" (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY the wicked in Noah's day came in contact with the water and they all perished.

 

[Danthemailman]

Yes, he speaks to believers in particular in the warning of having an evil heart in departing from the living God

as we read,

“Wherefore, holy brethren, [talking to holy brethren in Christ] partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;...“But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, [the writer includes himself in this "we"] if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end...“Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God...[you can't depart from God unless your once with him] For we [the writer talks of himself and them again] are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;” (Hebrews 3:1, 6, 12, 14 KJV)

Hebrews 3:8-10 says, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works forty years. Therefore, I was angry with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of genuine believers.

Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So, we see that they could not enter in because of UNBELIEF. That is the heart of the issue.

*Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. Did you see that? DID NOT BELIEVE.

In Hebrews 3:14, we read - For we have become [past tense Greek verb, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence firm to the end.

*Notice that the wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end. It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end.

What about the faltering Hebrews who end up departing from God after beginning with some level of confidence and profession of loyalty, but then later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Hebrews 3:8-10 says, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works forty years. Therefore, I was angry with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of genuine believers.

Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So, we see that they could not enter in because of UNBELIEF. That is the heart of the issue.

Hello and God bless,

The writer of Hebrews is simply uses an example of unbelief as a warning to the believers in Christ he speaks to and he includes himself in that warning. There is no denying this in the text.

*Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. Did you see that? DID NOT BELIEVE.

Consider the next verse

Jude 1: 6. And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”

Angels once had eternal life with God, perfect beings, with no sin, then some fell and will end up in the lake of fire. If God spared not the angels that sinned how can any escape if they walk in unbelief and sin.

2 Peter 2: 4. For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;”

Peter told this as a warning for all believers as well.

John told us in 1 John that if we say we walk in the light (or are saved in Christ) and walk in datkness we lie . We are not in the light of walking in darkness and cannot claim at that time to see God or know him (1 John 3:6 KJV)

In Hebrews 3:14, we read - For we have become [past tense Greek verb, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence firm to the end.

No your not wording this right abd it appears you miss seeing the “if” word of condition.

It says,

Hebrews 3: 14. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;” (KJV)

Yes, they were believers but to continue. In the faith is vital to be grounded and settled the word “if we hold” is conditional. There is no such unconditional salvation in the scripture. If we continue in the faith , if we abide in him, if we continue in the grace, if we faint not, if we overcome to the end, if we walk in the light as he is in the light, if we endure, if we live in the Spirit, if we receive him…

 

[Danthemailman]

Thank you for your lengthy and well-thought-out post. Lots to digest!
My understanding regarding the "things that accompany salvation" is that they are the things listed earlier in verses 4-5:

Hebrews 6:4-5 KJV
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come

"Things that accompany salvation"
Were enlightened,
tasted of the heavenly gift
partakers of the Holy Ghost,
tasted the good word of God,
powers of the world to come

in regard to Hebrews 6:4-6, once enlightened - which means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man," but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. The light either leads to acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject the light.

In regard to partakers of the Holy Spirit, the word translated “partaker” can certainly refer to a saving partaking in Christ, as we read in Hebrews 3:14, yet it can also refer to a less than saving association or participation. See Luke 5:7 and Hebrews 1:9 - "comrades, companions," which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. These Hebrews who fell away had obviously in some aspect shared in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but in what way? There are other ministries of the Holy Spirit which precede receiving the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, which only genuine believers receive. (Ephesians 1:13)

Those who fall away absolutely could have been affiliated closely with the fellowship of the church. Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the true preaching of the word of God yet have simply tasted and stopped there. People who have experienced these things may be genuine Christians, yet this alone is not enough to give conclusive evidence that the beginning stages of conversion (repentance unto life, regeneration, salvation, justification, etc..) have taken place for those who fell away. The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet those who draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth do not believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:39)

These certain individuals who fall short of obtaining salvation certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responding to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead sinners to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not use conclusive terms that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit." Genuine believers who have believed the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)

In regard to "tasted" the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, they may have tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of what was tasted, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept what is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." We do not merely taste, but drink into one Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:13)

In regard to renew them again unto repentance, this does not specify whether the repentance was merely outward or genuine accompanied by saving faith. They have in some sense "repented," there may be sorrow for sins and an attempt to turn from them (moral self-reformation) that non-believers can experience. There is repentance that falls short of salvation, which is clear from Hebrews 12:7 and the reference to Esau, as well as the repentance of Judas Iscariot in Matthew 27:3. Paul refers to a repentance “without regret that leads to salvation,” which shows there is a repentance that does not lead to salvation. As with “belief/faith”, so too with “repentance,” we must always distinguish between what is substantial and results in salvation and what is spurious. Renew them again "unto salvation" would be conclusive evidence for the argument of a loss of salvation.

In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. We see in scripture where good fruit is the evidence of spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the trustworthy evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that those who fell away in Hebrews 6 were not genuine believers.

*Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.

It's generally stated by those who believe that salvation can be lost that it can be regained again, yet that would not be the case here if the writer of Hebrews was teaching a loss of salvation. I have heard certain individuals state they know someone who was truly saved, but later lost their salvation, yet only God truly knows the heart of individuals. Certain people "on the surface" may do a good job of looking like the real deal for a while (like Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) yet to the other 11 disciples, he looked like the real deal, but Jesus knew his heart. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and it's not always easy to tell them apart.

 

[Danthemailman]

He simply uses an example of unbelief as a warning to the believers in Christ he speaks to and he includes himself in that warning. There is no denying this in the text.

The letter is addressed to believers in Christ, yet the problem is you can always find make believers mixed in with the group. Just because a letter is addressed to believers does not mean that everyone in a group of professing believers is a genuine believer. If you visited a new church on Sunday morning (particularly a very large church) and the Pastor of that church addressed the congregation with, "good morning brothers and sisters in Christ" would you automatically assume that EVERYONE attending church that morning MUST be a genuine believer?

There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers mixed together throughout various churches. The writer of Hebrews is addressing groups of people who all "profess" to be Christians without being able to infallibly know the actual state of every person's heart.

Elsewhere in the book of Hebrews 4:1-2, we read - For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in THOSE who heard it.

For WE who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were genuine believers. *Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

Consider the next verse

Jude 1: 6. And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”

Angels once had eternal life with God perfect beings, with no sin, then some fell and will end up in the lake of fire. If God spared not the angels that sinned how can any escape if they walk in unbelief and sin.
2 Peter 2: 4. For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;”

Peter told this as a warning for all believers as well.

These fallen angels have made their choice and unbelievers have made their choice. Genuine believers are sealed until/for the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)

John told us in 1 John that if we say we walk in the light (or are saved in Christ) and walk in datkness we lie . We are not in the light of walking in darkness and cannot claim at that time to see God or know him (1 John 3:6 KJV)

1 John 1:6 - If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

*Walking in darkness is descriptive of children of the devil. Walking in the light is descriptive of children of God. Only those who are saved/believers are in the light.

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

Ephesians 5:8 - for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light. Children of the devil walk in darkness, not in the light. Children of God walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.

In 1 John 2:9, we read - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. In vs. 11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

*Compare with 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, (compare with 1 John 1:6 - does not practice the truth) nor is he who does not love his brother.

*Notice that walks in darkness, hates his brother is descriptive of children of the devil.

No your not wording this right abd it appears you miss seeing the “if” word of condition.

IF is conditional and is also a confirmation.

It says,

Hebrews 3: 14. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;” (KJV)

Yes, they were believers but to continue. In the faith is vital to be grounded and settled the word “if we hold” is conditional. There is no such unconditional salvation in the scripture. If we continue in the faith , if we abide in him, if we continue in the grace, if we faint not, if we overcome to the end, if we walk in the light as he is in the light, if we endure, if we live in the Spirit, if we receive him…

That's false and culminates in "type 2 works salvation." Once again, continuing is proof of genuine conversion. Genuine believers believe to the saving of the soul and do not draw back to perdition. (Hebrews 10:39) Make believers come short of the grace of God. (NASB) The ESV reads - ..fails to obtain the grace of God. (Hebrews 12:15)

 

[BNR32FAN]

Good examples and sadly, there are many folks in various false religions who think they are believers but are not and get water baptized because they think it will save them. Such folks are trusting in works for salvation and not in Jesus Christ alone.

I think there are many people who get baptized for reasons other than because they are actual believers. Organized crime members often want to have the appearance of being of good moral character so that they can have people testify as character witnesses on their behalf. Politicians seeking conservative votes want the appearance that they are Christians because they want votes. Some unbelievers may want to marry a believer who refuses to get married unless they become a believer. Some people may be getting pressured by their peers or family members to become a believer. There are a lot of circumstances where people may want to appear to be a believer who really aren’t and @concretecamper refuses to acknowledge this because it proves that baptism doesn’t save a person.

 

[concretecamper]

There are a lot of circumstances where people may want to appear to be a believer who really aren’t and @concretecamper refuses to acknowledge this because it proves that baptism doesn’t save a person.

All it proves is your communication may need improvement. I stand ready to answer a legit question.

 

[B Griffin]

Yes absolutely, a person can always repent and be saved. We never lose that option as long as we live. Are you familiar with James 5:19-20?

”My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.“
‭‭James‬ ‭5‬:‭19‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So, what does it mean that "it is impossible to renew them again to repentance"? If it is possible to turn someone who strays from the truth back to the truth and save his soul from death, then must we conclude Hebrews 6:4-6 is not talking about the same thing?

And what does it mean that "there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins"? How does the one who lost his salvation in James 5:19-20 get it back without Jesus' sacrifice covering his sins?

 

[Clare73]

God gave all men the true Light that lighteth every man and this is to “convict” them at first reprove them. All things that are reproved are made manifest by the light . This seed given is the word down in the heart if they heard aand received him they would have life .
Gid calls all men everywhere to repent and Jesus said ,
Matthew 23: 37. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!”
Isaiah 5: 4. What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes? 5. And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:”

God does not force men to believe. He does so much to bring all to him …but they would not all come.

Isaiah 66: 2. For all those things hath mine hand made, and those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. 3. He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. 4. I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.”

Which does not address the point of my post. . .

 

[B Griffin]

When a person is born again, he/she becomes a partaker in a heavenly calling—an heir of God and joint heir with Christ. And that inheritance is not just a pie in the sky; it also includes our suffering with Christ (Rom. 8:17), and is conditional upon our holding our first confidence firm to the end. (Heb. 3:14).

So, you didn't answer the question. If a person breaks the condition and loses his salvation, can he get it back?

Total apostasy from the Christian faith and Christ Himself on the part of genuine believers has been an issue of great concern throughout the entire history of the Church. Up until the 16th century, it was the unanimous view of the Church that such a scenario is not only possible, but a very frequent happening. The Ante-Nicene Church Fathers agonized over their witnessing their closest friends and relatives who had been firm in their faith and practice for years forsake all of it when overcome by temptation. And that agonizing has continued down to the present day. However, we find millions of people denying this reality thereby heaping more sorrow and agony upon the heads of those who have witnessed it—and I am one of those wittiness! I lost my best friend and brother to Satan, and saw my brother’s wife and three beautiful Christian boys suffer that agony that no one should have to bear.

We have probably all seen it if we've been around long enough. But everyone I have seen it happen to could easily fall into the "never saved" or "saved but burned out on legalism" categories.

However, this is not the worst of it. Satan is indescribably evil and he has put into motion something even worse! He let the doctrine of conditional salvation stand unopposed for 1,500 years and then raised up men by the millions to oppose the doctrine knowing full well the inescapable implication that the Bible was so poorly written that no one could understand it until a Frenchman named Jean Calvin came along and taught a brand new systematic theology.

Satan allowed the doctrine of conditional salvation stand unopposed for 1500 years? Satan raised up millions of men to oppose it? Satan fooled people into believing the Bible couldn't be understood until he raised up Calvin to explain it?

And, of course, if the Bible was indeed so poorly written that no one could understand it for 1,500 years, the Bible was written by men with ridiculously poor writing skills and therefore it is of human rather than divine origin making it neither inspired nor authoritative.

This is the devil saying this? Didn't he know that the Bible wasn't widely available to the masses for maybe 1400 of those 1500 years?

But no! The Bible is the inspired word of God and it was so well written that it was understood (for the most part) for 1,500 years and is still understood by those persons who carefully and prayerfully read it.

So, what inspired that tirate? Do you think Calvin started the concept of eternal security? I certainly don't.

 

[B Griffin]

in regard to Hebrews 6:4-6, once enlightened - which means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man," but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. The light either leads to acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject the light.

In regard to partakers of the Holy Spirit, the word translated “partaker” can certainly refer to a saving partaking in Christ, as we read in Hebrews 3:14, yet it can also refer to a less than saving association or participation. See Luke 5:7 and Hebrews 1:9 - "comrades, companions," which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. These Hebrews who fell away had obviously in some aspect shared in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but in what way? There are other ministries of the Holy Spirit which precede receiving the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, which only genuine believers receive. (Ephesians 1:13)

Those who fall away absolutely could have been affiliated closely with the fellowship of the church. Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the true preaching of the word of God yet have simply tasted and stopped there. People who have experienced these things may be genuine Christians, yet this alone is not enough to give conclusive evidence that the beginning stages of conversion (repentance unto life, regeneration, salvation, justification, etc..) have taken place for those who fell away. The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet those who draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth do not believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:39)

These certain individuals who fall short of obtaining salvation certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responding to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead sinners to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not use conclusive terms that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit." Genuine believers who have believed the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)

In regard to "tasted" the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, they may have tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of what was tasted, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept what is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." We do not merely taste, but drink into one Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:13)

In regard to renew them again unto repentance, this does not specify whether the repentance was merely outward or genuine accompanied by saving faith. They have in some sense "repented," there may be sorrow for sins and an attempt to turn from them (moral self-reformation) that non-believers can experience. There is repentance that falls short of salvation, which is clear from Hebrews 12:7 and the reference to Esau, as well as the repentance of Judas Iscariot in Matthew 27:3. Paul refers to a repentance “without regret that leads to salvation,” which shows there is a repentance that does not lead to salvation. As with “belief/faith”, so too with “repentance,” we must always distinguish between what is substantial and results in salvation and what is spurious. Renew them again "unto salvation" would be conclusive evidence for the argument of a loss of salvation.

In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. We see in scripture where good fruit is the evidence of spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the trustworthy evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that those who fell away in Hebrews 6 were not genuine believers.

*Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.

It's generally stated by those who believe that salvation can be lost that it can be regained again, yet that would not be the case here if the writer of Hebrews was teaching a loss of salvation. I have heard certain individuals state they know someone who was truly saved, but later lost their salvation, yet only God truly knows the heart of individuals. Certain people "on the surface" may do a good job of looking like the real deal for a while (like Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) yet to the other 11 disciples, he looked like the real deal, but Jesus knew his heart. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and it's not always easy to tell them apart.

Thank you for weighing in on this. Your post is very helpful.