The existence Satan

[-57]

Where does the book of Job 1st chapter say that Satan was summoned?

From memory...I believe he was walking around the earth.

 

[Radrook]

From memory...I believe he was walking around the earth.

That is what he replied when he appeared at the assembly and God asked him about his whereabouts. Of course God knew exactly where he had been and his deviant motives. So the question was rhetorical. But it doesn't mean that he had been formally invited. In fact, his arrival is described as sudden and disrespectfully intrusive. yet since God is all knowing, I am sure that his sudden appearance had been expected.

No, Satan wasn't forcefully prevented from entering the assembly as he perhaps easily had been on other numerous occasions because God knew that there was a crucial issue that needed to be resolved which pertained not only to Job but by extension to the entire human race in their relationship with the creator. Does man serve God only because of selfish interest or is man capable of loving his creator and wanting to obey him despite having nothing material to gain. Adam and Eve's behavior seemed to support Satan's argument since they had placed materialistic gain above their loyalty to God.

So based on that Edenic victory involving perfect humans, Satan believed that any human pushed sufficiently far would similarly buckle under. Thus God allowed the challenge involving Job to proceed.

BTW
Please note that Satan and his angels had access to heaven and that access to heaven was scheduled to be terminated during the Lord's Day as shown the Apostle John while he was imprisoned on the island of Patmos. Satan's absence from heaven an roaming the Earth could only have been for malicious purposes. But he and his angels had definitely had not as yet been restricted to Earth at that time.

Their activity in heaven was to tempt the holy angels via questioning the reasons why they chose to serve God. That's when they are hurled to Earth during the Lord's Day, the heavenly voice states that the accusers of our brothers has been hurled down along with all his angels.

It is within that scriptural context that I understand what is described in the book of Job.

 

[JackRT]

That is what he replied when he appeared at the assembly and God asked him about his whereabouts. Of course God knew exactly where he had been and his deviant motives. So the question was rhetorical. But it doesn't mean that he had been formally invited. In fact, his arrival is described as sudden and disrespectfully intrusive. yet since God is all knowing, I am sure that his sudden appearance had been expected.

No, Satan wasn't forcefully prevented from entering the assembly as he perhaps easily had been on other numerous occasions because God knew that there was a crucial issue that needed to be resolved which pertained not only to Job but by extension to the entire human race in their relationship with the creator. Does man serve God only because of selfish interest or is man capable of loving his creator and wanting to obey him despite having nothing material to gain. Adam and Eve's behavior seemed to support Satan's argument since they had placed materialistic gain above their loyalty to God.
So based on that victory involving perfect humans, Satan challenged that all men if pushed sufficiently far would similarly buckle under. Thus God allowed the challenge involving Job to proceed.

BTW
Please note that Satan and his angels had access to heaven and that access to heaven was scheduled to be terminated during the Lord's Day as shown the Apostle John while he was imprisoned on the island of Patmos. Satan's absence from heaven an roaming the Earth could only have been for malicious purposes. But he and his angels had definitely had not as yet been restricted to Earth at that time.

Their activity in heaven was to tempt the holy angels via questioning the reasons why they chose to serve God. That's when they are hurled to Earth during the Lord's Day, the heavenly voice states that the accusers of our brothers has been hurled down along with all his angels.

It is within that scriptural context that I understand what is described in the book of Job.

Whenever someone attempts to explain God's or Satan's actions and thoughts and motives, my natural skepticism runs rampant.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Wasn't there a trial for all christians to pass that involved "not knowing satan's so called secrets?" ... just saying.

 

[Radrook]

Whenever someone attempts to explain God's or Satan's actions and thoughts and motives, my natural skepticism runs rampant.

I have absolutely no control nor wish to have any absolute control on how you or anyone else chooses to react to anything I might say. Neither am I posting in search of heated useless debate. My only motive is to aid in biblical basic understanding. If indeed it doesn't do so or is considered unhelpful, or extremely controversial, then so be it.

1 Tim
2:23 But reject foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they breed quarrels.

 

[Stillicidia]

Wasn't there a trial for all christians to pass that involved "not knowing satan's so called secrets?" ... just saying.

heh heh heh

 

[Radrook]

heh heh heh

Ja! Ja! Ja!

 

[tatteredsoul]

So here is the problem, if this world became what it is because of Adam and Eve sinning, then why didn't heaven get the same results if the actual first sin was done in heaven - through Satan?

Because Adam (and Eve) was given dominion over the planet - like God has dominion over the entirety of existence.

In the case of Adam, he abdicated his dominion over the planet to a creature of deception and evil when he chose to disobey God, and do something wrong. Can you imagine if God did that? Heaven would indeed be in shambles.

But that is the difference: when the serpent tempted man, he gave in and sinned. God did not do this when the entity known as Satan tempted the angels with sin; He did not sin.

So, Heaven still maintains order because the One who has dominion over it is still in order, and righteous. With Adam's sin, it caused chaos for Earth. That is why we have this mess; the one that has dominion on the planet is not righteous.

 

[Radrook]

Wasn't there a trial for all christians to pass that involved "not knowing satan's so called secrets?" ... just saying.

Not knowing how Satan operates puts the Christian in grave danger:

2 Corinthians 2:11: "In order that no advantage be taken of us by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his (Satan's) schemes."

Ephesians 6:10-12: "Finally, be strong in the Lord, and in the strength of His might. Put on the full armor of God, that you may be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places."

So total ignorance of Satan''s tactics and schemes will get you unceremoniously plowed under since you will not know what hit you, how it hit you nor why.

 

[tatteredsoul]

It says they would die that day: "... but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die." (Genesis 2:17, NRSV)

Then they ate... and didn't die! Maybe God wasn't talking about physical death and that was already present. Maybe we're not even supposed to read the garden account literally. The point is, it's difficult to reconcile the introduction of physical death at the fall with the Genesis account.

There's a thread about some of this in the Theistic Evolution subforum.

Their spirit died that day; the body is just a bioshell. The spirit mattered.

They had no comfortor like the Holy Spirit because man was no longer born with the spirit of God inside. Perhaps this is why the patriarchs got "flashier" signs. Most Hebrews equated this lacking with the romantic metaphor of death and "sleeping," rather than death and resurrection/redemption when the Hebrews speak about Christ. Even though their spirits died with Adam, the Hebrews knew Christ would redeem them - it was prophecy old as Adam.

 

[-57]

That is what he replied when he appeared at the assembly and God asked him about his whereabouts. Of course God knew exactly where he had been and his deviant motives. So the question was rhetorical. But it doesn't mean that he had been formally invited. In fact, his arrival is described as sudden and disrespectfully intrusive. yet since God is all knowing, I am sure that his sudden appearance had been expected.

No, Satan wasn't forcefully prevented from entering the assembly as he perhaps easily had been on other numerous occasions because God knew that there was a crucial issue that needed to be resolved which pertained not only to Job but by extension to the entire human race in their relationship with the creator. Does man serve God only because of selfish interest or is man capable of loving his creator and wanting to obey him despite having nothing material to gain. Adam and Eve's behavior seemed to support Satan's argument since they had placed materialistic gain above their loyalty to God.

So based on that Edenic victory involving perfect humans, Satan believed that any human pushed sufficiently far would similarly buckle under. Thus God allowed the challenge involving Job to proceed.

BTW
Please note that Satan and his angels had access to heaven and that access to heaven was scheduled to be terminated during the Lord's Day as shown the Apostle John while he was imprisoned on the island of Patmos. Satan's absence from heaven an roaming the Earth could only have been for malicious purposes. But he and his angels had definitely had not as yet been restricted to Earth at that time.

Their activity in heaven was to tempt the holy angels via questioning the reasons why they chose to serve God. That's when they are hurled to Earth during the Lord's Day, the heavenly voice states that the accusers of our brothers has been hurled down along with all his angels.

It is within that scriptural context that I understand what is described in the book of Job.

Interesting thoughts.

I don't really see his arrival described as sudden and disrespectfully intrusive. Perhaps he was as one commentary I read also said Job was intrusive.
Another commentary said it may not have actually been "Satan"...Lucifer.
Also, We assume God was in heaven but the book of Job doesn't really indicate the location of the meeting.

 

[JackRT]

God didn't create Satan, man did. Satan (ha'shaitan) occurs by name in the Old Testament in the Book of Job, and here it's clear that Satan IS NOT the Devil! The Devil is supposedly banished from the presence of God, yet in Job, Satan is allowed to talk with and to come and go from God's presence and on a mission for God yet! What's going on? Satan here is not "the Devil" but sort of God's prosecuting attorney. There is a very common perception that the 'Lucifer' in Isaiah 14:12ff refers to Satan, the supernatural personification of evil. I think that this misconception comes from two sources. The first is wishful thinking in the sense that it is nice to think that 'the Enemy' will get his come-uppance eventually. The second has to do with the old caution that scripture is to be read only 'in context'. This requires going back and reading all of Isaiah 13 and the earlier verses in Isaiah 14. When this is done we suddenly realize that scripture is not speaking of a supernatural Satan at all but of a Babylonian king with an immense ego. Read Isaiah 14: " 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:" What follows is a long rant against this oppressive king filled with numerous reference to his human nature like Isaiah 14: "16 Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, 17 the man who made the world a desert, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?" This passage is in no way a reference to Satan or the devil. The Jews did not originally believe in devils but they picked up this concept during the Babylonian Exile from the Persians who followed Zoroastrianism. Up to that time, their concept of God was of a being responsible for everything, both good and evil. Isaiah 45:7 is just one quote that demonstrates this. The Exilic Jews found the concept of a near-Supreme Being of Evil interesting. They borrowed it because it got God off the hook for the suffering in the world, providing him with a scapegoat. God was now all-good! Satan was made into the Devil as a result of this alien dualism, since his function as a prosecutor was so unwelcome to the Jews. The Jews never connected Satan to the serpent in the Garden of Eden. It was the second-century Christian martyr, Justin of Samaria, who was first to argue that Satan appeared as a serpent to tempt Adam and Eve to disobey God.

 

[Radrook]

Interesting thoughts.

Well, I guess we have different perspectives.
God Bless!

 

[Radrook]

God didn't create Satan, man did. Satan (ha'shaitan) occurs by name in the Old Testament in the Book of Job, and here it's clear that Satan IS NOT the Devil! The Devil is supposedly banished from the presence of God, yet in Job, Satan is allowed to talk with and to come and go from God's presence and on a mission for God yet! What's going on? Satan here is not "the Devil" but sort of God's prosecuting attorney. There is a very common perception that the 'Lucifer' in Isaiah 14:12ff refers to Satan, the supernatural personification of evil. I think that this misconception comes from two sources. The first is wishful thinking in the sense that it is nice to think that 'the Enemy' will get his come-uppance eventually. The second has to do with the old caution that scripture is to be read only 'in context'. This requires going back and reading all of Isaiah 13 and the earlier verses in Isaiah 14. When this is done we suddenly realize that scripture is not speaking of a supernatural Satan at all but of a Babylonian king with an immense ego. Read Isaiah 14: " 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:" What follows is a long rant against this oppressive king filled with numerous reference to his human nature like Isaiah 14: "16 Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, 17 the man who made the world a desert, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?" This passage is in no way a reference to Satan or the devil. The Jews did not originally believe in devils but they picked up this concept during the Babylonian Exile from the Persians who followed Zoroastrianism. Up to that time, their concept of God was of a being responsible for everything, both good and evil. Isaiah 45:7 is just one quote that demonstrates this. The Exilic Jews found the concept of a near-Supreme Being of Evil interesting. They borrowed it because it got God off the hook for the suffering in the world, providing him with a scapegoat. God was now all-good! Satan was made into the Devil as a result of this alien dualism, since his function as a prosecutor was so unwelcome to the Jews. The Jews never connected Satan to the serpent in the Garden of Eden. It was the second-century Christian martyr, Justin of Samaria, who was first to argue that Satan appeared as a serpent to tempt Adam and Eve to disobey God.

 

[Radrook]

The book of Revelation tells us that Satan and his angels are finally cast out of heaven in the Lord's Day. So they had access to heaven even in the apostle John's day.

 

[david.d]

That's a wall of text. I'm only going to address the two core points I was making:



They eventually died, physically, but not the day they ate of that tree, as God had said. Likewise, the Tree of Life was totally redundant to the garden if they had been physically immortal before eating of the other tree. It's part in the story is confusing at best if it wasn't there to sustain their lives. In fact, even the name is nonsensical in a world of immortality.

They became dead in sin, the essence (breath) of God within his creation went away. This is why we are born again. If they had eaten of both, they would be immortal and with sin, so they could never be redeemed (the Son of God couldn't be sacrificed as an immortal man, only a mortal man).

I can't find anywhere it says man was immortal while in the garden, even though for all we know man could have only been there for a day or two before they sinned.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

They became dead in sin, the essence (breath) of God within his creation went away. This is why we are born again. If they had eaten of both, they would be immortal and with sin, so they could never be redeemed (the Son of God couldn't be sacrificed as an immortal man, only a mortal man).

I can't find anywhere it says man was immortal while in the garden, even though for all we know man could have only been there for a day or two before they sinned.

I figure about six months in the garden.

 

[BobRyan]

I figure about six months in the garden.

In any case -- it had to be "enough time" to 'get careless' and wander off.

===========================

The first moral lesson given to Adam was that of self-denial. The reins of self-government were placed in his hands. Judgment, reason, and conscience were to bear sway. “And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.” {Confrontation 12.2}
Adam and Eve were permitted to partake of every tree in the garden save one. There was a single prohibition. The forbidden tree was as attractive and lovely as any of the trees in the garden. It was called the tree of knowledge because in partaking of that tree of which God had said, “Thou shalt not eat of it,” they would have a knowledge of sin, an experience in disobedience. {Confrontation 12.3}

Eve went from the side of her husband, viewing the beautiful things of nature, delighting her senses with the colors and fragrance of the flowers, and admiring the beauty of the trees and shrubs. She was thinking of the restrictions which God had laid upon them in regard to the tree of knowledge. She was pleased with the beauties and bounties which the Lord had furnished for the gratification of every want. All these, said she, God has given us to enjoy. They are all ours; for God has said, “Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it.” {Confrontation 12.4}
Eve had wandered near the forbidden tree, and her curiosity was aroused to know how death could be concealed in the fruit of this fair tree. She was surprised to hear her queries taken up and repeated by a strange voice. “Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?” Eve was not aware that she had revealed her thoughts in audibly conversing with herself; therefore, she was greatly astonished to hear her queries repeated by a serpent. She really thought that the serpent had a knowledge of her thoughts, and that he must be very wise. {Confrontation 13.1}
She answered him, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.” {Confrontation 13.2}
Here the father of lies made his assertion in direct contradiction to the expressed word of God. Satan assured Eve that she was created immortal, and that there was no possibility of her dying. He told her that God knew that if she and her husband should eat of the tree of knowledge, their understanding would be enlightened, expanded, and ennobled, making them equal with Himself. And the serpent answered Eve that the command of God, forbidding them to eat of the tree of knowledge, was given to keep them in such a state of subordination that they should not obtain knowledge, which was power. He assured her that the fruit of this tree was desirable above every other tree in the garden to make them wise, and to exalt them equal with God. He has, said the serpent, refused you the fruit of that tree which, of all the trees, is the most desirable for its delicious flavor and exhilarating influence. {Con 13.3}
Eve thought that the serpent’s discourse was very wise, and that the prohibition of God was unjust. She looked with longing desire upon the tree laden with fruit which appeared very delicious. The serpent was eating it with apparent delight. She longed for this fruit above every other variety which God had given her a perfect right to use. {Con 14.1}
Eve had overstated the words of God’s command. He had said to Adam and Eve, “But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.” In Eve’s controversy with the serpent, she added “Neither shall ye touch it.” Here the subtlety of the serpent appeared. This statement of Eve gave him advantage; he plucked the fruit and placed it in her hand, using her own words, He hath said, If ye touch it, ye shall die. You see no harm comes to you from touching the fruit, neither will you receive any harm by eating it. {Con 14.2}
Eve yielded to the lying sophistry of the devil in the form of a serpent. She ate the fruit, and realized no immediate harm. She then plucked the fruit for herself and for her husband. “And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.” {Con 14.3}

 

[BobRyan]

One more comment in that regard

================================= Satan in the garden of Eden.

Satan was determined to succeed in his temptation of the sinless Adam and Eve. And he could reach even this holy pair more successfully through the medium of appetite than in any other way. The fruit of the forbidden tree seemed pleasant to the eye and desirable to the taste. They ate and fell. They transgressed God’s just command and became sinners. Satan’s triumph was complete. He then had the vantage ground over the race. He flattered himself that, through his subtlety, he had thwarted the purpose of God in the creation of man. {Confrontation 15.4}
Satan made his exulting boasts to Christ and to loyal angels that he had succeeded in gaining a portion of the angels in heaven to unite with him in his daring rebellion; and now that he had succeeded in overcoming Adam and Eve, he claimed that their Eden home was his. He proudly boasted that the world which God had made was his dominion; that having conquered Adam, the monarch of the world, he had gained the race as his subjects, and should now possess Eden, making that his headquarters, and would there establish his throne and be monarch of the world. {Confrontation 16.1}
But measures were immediately taken in heaven to defeat Satan in his plans. Strong angels, with beams of light like flaming swords turning in every direction, were placed as sentinels to guard the way of the tree of life from the approach of Satan and the guilty pair. Adam and Eve had forfeited all right to their beautiful Eden home, and were now expelled from it. The earth was cursed because of Adam’s sin, and was ever after to bring forth briers and thorns. While he lived, Adam was to be exposed to the temptations of Satan and was finally to pass through death to dust again. {Confrontation 16.2}

 

[BobRyan]

As for HOW Lucifer - the sinless covering cherub - became - Satan ... the devil..

============================from the book; Patriarchs and Prophets

So long as all created beings acknowledged the allegiance of love, there was perfect harmony throughout the universe of God. It was the joy of the heavenly host to fulfill the purpose of their Creator. They delighted in reflecting His glory and showing forth His praise. And while love to God was supreme, love for one another was confiding and unselfish. There was no note of discord to mar the celestial harmonies. But a change came over this happy state. There was one who perverted the freedom that God had granted to His creatures. Sin originated with him who, next to Christ, had been most honored of God and was highest in power and glory among the inhabitants of heaven. Lucifer, “son of the morning,” was first of the covering cherubs, holy and undefiled. He stood in the presence of the great Creator, and the ceaseless beams of glory enshrouding the eternal God rested upon him. “Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering.... Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.” Ezekiel 28:12-15. {PP 35.1}

Little by little Lucifer came to indulge the desire for self-exaltation. The Scripture says, “Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness.” Ezekiel 28:17. “Thou hast said in thine heart, ...I will exalt my throne above the stars of God.... I will be like the Most High.” Isaiah 14:13, 14. Though all his glory was from God, this mighty angel came to regard it as pertaining to himself. Not content with his position, though honored above the heavenly host, he ventured to covet homage due alone to the Creator. Instead of seeking to make God supreme in the affections and allegiance of all created beings, it was his endeavor to secure their service and loyalty to himself. And coveting the glory with which the infinite Father had invested His Son, this prince of angels aspired to power that was the prerogative of Christ alone. {PP 35.2}

Now the perfect harmony of heaven was broken. Lucifer’s disposition to serve himself instead of his Creator aroused a feeling of apprehension when observed by those who considered that the glory of God should be supreme. In heavenly council the angels pleaded with Lucifer. The Son of God presented before him the greatness, the goodness, and the justice of the Creator, and the sacred, unchanging nature of His law. God Himself had established the order of heaven; and in departing from it, Lucifer would dishonor his Maker and bring ruin upon himself. But the warning, given in infinite love and mercy, only aroused a spirit of resistance. Lucifer allowed his jealousy of Christ to prevail, and became the more determined. {PP 35.3}

To dispute the supremacy of the Son of God, thus impeaching the wisdom and love of the Creator, had become the purpose of this prince of angels. To this object he was about to bend the energies of that master mind, ...

The King of the universe summoned the heavenly hosts before Him, that in their presence He might set forth the true position of His Son and show the relation He sustained to all created beings. The Son of God shared the Father’s throne, and the glory of the eternal, self-existent One encircled both. About the throne gathered the holy angels, a vast, unnumbered throng—“ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands” (Revelation 5:11.), the most exalted angels, as ministers and subjects, rejoicing in the light that fell upon them from the presence of the Deity. Before the assembled inhabitants of heaven the King declared that none but Christ, the Only Begotten of God, could fully enter into His purposes, and to Him it was committed to execute the mighty counsels of His will. The Son of God had wrought the Father’s will in the creation of all the hosts of heaven; and to Him, as well as to God, their homage and allegiance were due. Christ was still to exercise divine power, in the creation of the earth and its inhabitants. But in all this He would not seek power or exaltation for Himself contrary to God’s plan, but would exalt the Father’s glory and execute His purposes of beneficence and love. {PP 36.2}

The angels joyfully acknowledged the supremacy of Christ, and prostrating themselves before Him, poured out their love and adoration. Lucifer bowed with them, but in his heart there was a strange, fierce conflict. Truth, justice, and loyalty were struggling against envy and jealousy. The influence of the holy angels seemed for a time to carry him with them. As songs of praise ascended in melodious strains, swelled by thousands of glad voices, the spirit of evil seemed vanquished; unutterable love thrilled his entire being; his soul went out, in harmony with the sinless worshippers, in love to the Father and the Son. But again he was filled with pride in his own glory. His desire for supremacy returned, and envy of Christ was once more indulged. The high honors conferred upon Lucifer were not appreciated as God’s special gift, and therefore, called forth no gratitude to his Creator. He gloried in his brightness and exaltation and aspired to be equal with God. He was beloved and reverenced by the heavenly host, angels delighted to execute his commands, and he was clothed with wisdom and glory above them all. Yet the Son of God was exalted above him, as one in power and authority with the Father. He shared the Father’s counsels, while Lucifer did not thus enter into the purposes of God. “Why,” questioned this mighty angel, “should Christ have the supremacy? Why is He honored above Lucifer?” {PP 36.3}