The End of Days

[trophy33]

Actually I very specifically point to the ENTIRE section 19 of the Baptist Confession of Faith (as well as that same section in the Westminster Confession of Faith sectn 19) since you make sweeping statements that no one believes such things.

If you were not so focused on just proving your point, you might also read the chapter 22 of the same confession:

"As it is the law of nature, that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, be set apart for the worship of God, so by his Word, in a positive moral, and perpetual commandment, binding all men, in all ages, he hath particularly appointed one day in seven for a sabbath to be kept holy unto him. From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, God appointed the seventh day of the week to be the weekly sabbath; and the first day of the week ever since, to continue to the end of the world, which is the Christian sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week being abolished."

So, even though I do not agree with this confession regarding Sunday being our Sabbath, the confession still does not support the Seventh Day Adventist teaching.

 

[BobRyan]

If you were not so focused on just proving your point, you might also read the chapter 22 of the same confession:

"As it is the law of nature, that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, be set apart for the worship of God, so by his Word, in a positive moral, and perpetual commandment, binding all men, in all ages, he hath particularly appointed one day in seven for a sabbath to be kept holy unto him. From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, God appointed the seventh day of the week to be the weekly sabbath; and the first day of the week ever since, to continue to the end of the world, which is the Christian sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week being abolished."

I am not sure if you're deliberately trying to shoot your own argument in foot - or just not paying attention to your posts.

Section 19 makes it clear that they affirm all TEN commandments as the moral law of God binding on all humanity from Eden to this very day..

Section 22 makes it clear that they need to "edit" the Sabbath commandment and point it to week-day-1 as soon as Christ is resurrected.

(hence my OP on the thread here #1 -- is for those that read such documents and are informed by them)

That leaves them with a huge problem given the 5 irrefutable details I point out in the OP at this location #1
It leaves you with a huge problem in that you then have to claim that their sectn 19 and sectn 22 "don't exist" as you have already done on this thread.

I kept quiet about the fact that this throws your denials squarely in the fact of sectn 22 while you deny the argument in 19 as well. I hoped that given enough time and encouragement -- you would simply shoot your own argument in the foot with sectn 22... which apparently you are only too happy to do.

Well I am not complaining - that is for sure. And I thank you for being willing to quote it here - no matter that your own posts prior to this seem to deny the argument it makes - even exists.

So, even though I do not agree with this confession regarding Sunday being our Sabbath, the confession still does not support the Seventh Day Adventist teaching.

Sadly , you are not paying attention to all the details here -and that is not working for your argument.

They DO support my claims about the full TEN as included in the moral law of God written on the heart -- as sectn 19 shows to all the readers of it. This too - is irrefutable.

AND they ALSO support my claim that many millions of Christians would like to imagine that the Sabbath commandment was edited/re-pointed to week-day-1 in the first century at the cross. Which means all the 5 points listed in the OP directly apply to their argument -- addressing the basic flaw in it - and therefore of great interest to the many millions of Christians that follow the Westminster Confession of Faith or the Baptist Confession of Faith, or C.H. Spurgeon or the other documents of other groups making the same point.

An entire arena of discussion that you claimed - does not exist

====================

Now you say you do not agree with their sectn 22 claim that the Sabbath commandment was-edited or was-tweaked at the cross to repoint to week-day one. And of course I agree that no such "edit" happened since as we note in the OP -- those irrefutable statements are still "irrefutable".

But that leaves you hanging high and dry on two points
1. Their sectn 19 and their sectn 22 both fly in the face of your claims here
2. Your claim that arguments of the sort that we find in sectn 22 "do not exist" such that the OP is not of interest to the 100's of millions of Christians that make those similar argument as in sectn 22 -- falls flat.

 

[oikonomia]

Cain and Abel are observing the Shabbat of creation in this passage.
And the Shabbat will be observed until the end of days.

How could Cain be "resting" when he was being filled with murderous jealousy?
How could he be in any kind of honoring the Sabbath while plotting to murder a brother and true worshipper of God?

 

[daq]

How could Cain be "resting" when he was being filled with murderous jealousy?
How could he be in any kind of honoring the Sabbath while plotting to murder a brother and true worshipper of God?

Did I say resting or observing? and by that I meant by presenting their offerings before the Creator.
However that does raise a good question.

 

[BobRyan]

How could Cain be "resting" when he was being filled with murderous jealousy?

Regardless of what day it is - Cain and Able are engaged in an act of worship .. I think you would agree that not everyone in church who is in a worship service - is saved.

How could he be in any kind of honoring the Sabbath while plotting to murder a brother and true worshipper of God?

So then not a true worshiper of God when he is enraged -- but if someone goes to church and reads the Bible - but is not saved because of their spirit of hate toward someone else - it does not mean that the Bible is not sacred or valid. It just means that person is not saved.

 

[BobRyan]

Thus it is very possible that "the Yamim", (proper noun), are six, that is, the six yamim of creation: everything created and made in the first chapter of Genesis. And if this be true then "the end of the Yamim" is the end of the six yamim of creation, or immediately following that, the opening of the Shabbat.

And if these things be true then Cain and Habel brought their offerings either at the very tail-end of the sixth day or they brought them somewhere early in the beginning or opening of the seventh day, the Shabbat.

I don't know that this can be proven beyond doubt but this is how I understand it for now.

Do you have any example where "the Yamim" non-ambiguously means the six days of the week but not the seventh? In other words a place where it is very specifically a reference to the first 6 days prior to Sabbath?

Secondly I think there is no capitalization or punctuation in the early manuscripts - so really that would just be later manuscripts trying to clarify something.

 

[oikonomia]

Regardless of what day it is - Cain and Able are engaged in an act of worship .. I think you would agree that not everyone in church who is in a worship service - is saved.

So then not a true worshiper of God when he is enraged -- but if someone goes to church and reads the Bible - but is not saved because of their spirit of hate toward someone else - it does not mean that the Bible is not sacred or valid. It just means that person is not saved.

Here "The end of days" is proposed as a proof that they worshipped on the Sabbath.
I never saw such a textural explanation.

All of the rest of the Bible references to the killing of Abel by Cain put
much more importance to the sin, hate, and envy of Cain against righteous Abel.

For example - You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. (John 8:44)

. . . Cain was of the evil one and slew his brother. And for what reason did he slay him? Because his works were evil, and his brother’s, righteous. (See 1 John 3:12)

Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain (Jude 11)

By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying to his gifts; and through faith, though he has died, he still speaks. (Heb. 11:4)

It is perculiar that daq's teaching on this event is so out of step to how the rest of the Bible refers to it.
Daq's central importance is that we see Cain killed Abel on the Sabbath - they worshipped on "Saturday."

But I have a couple of questions for you.
What do you mean by someone being "in church?"
And what do you mean by "in a worship service?"

You comb through the Bible everywhere to prove that the 7th day has to be reserved for worship.
Where did you see the phrase someone being "in church?"
Where did you derive the concept of a "worship service?"

 

[Gary K]

Here "The end of days" is proposed as a proof that they worshipped on the Sabbath.
I never saw such a textural explanation.

All of the rest of the Bible references to the killing of Abel by Cain put
much more importance to the sin, hate, and envy of Cain against righteous Abel.

For example - You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. (John 8:44)

. . . Cain was of the evil one and slew his brother. And for what reason did he slay him? Because his works were evil, and his brother’s, righteous. (See 1 John 3:12)

Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain (Jude 11)

By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying to his gifts; and through faith, though he has died, he still speaks. (Heb. 11:4)

It is perculiar that daq's teaching on this event is so out of step to how the rest of the Bible refers to it.
Daq's central importance is that we see Cain killed Abel on the Sabbath - they worshipped on "Saturday."

But I have a couple of questions for you.
What do you mean by someone being "in church?"
And what do you mean by "in a worship service?"

You comb through the Bible everywhere to prove that the 7th day has to be reserved for worship.
Where did you see the phrase someone being "in church?"
Where did you derive the concept of a "worship service?"

Not hard to find. It's in the 2nd book of the Bible.

Exodus 2: 3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.

Convocation is translated from:

[*StrongsHebrew*]
4744
מקרא
miqrâ' mik-raw'
From H7121; something called {out} that {is} a public meeting (the {act} the {persons} or the place); also a rehearsal: - {assembly} {calling} {convocation} reading.

 

[daq]

Do you have any example where "the Yamim" non-ambiguously means the six days of the week but not the seventh? In other words a place where it is very specifically a reference to the first 6 days prior to Sabbath?

That is why I quoted Exodus 20:11. Notice that there is a word in italics in the KJV, ("in").
As you surely already know, that is because in is not in the actual Hebrew text.

Exodus 20:11a KJV
11a For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth

The phrase "for six yamim" is stripped of any sign of the article, (not even the bet prefix, "in", is present).

Secondly I think there is no capitalization or punctuation in the early manuscripts - so really that would just be later manuscripts trying to clarify something.

In Hebrew, nouns and proper nouns are already emphatic, (the opposite from Greek), so typically nouns, and most definitely proper nouns, do not tolerate the definite article. That is why I suggested that Yamim could actually be a proper noun, for there is no article attached, and yet the seas in the opening creation account are named, and they are named Yamim, (yes, the same exact spelling as the plural form of yom which we are discussing).

And here is the connection with that: in Gen 1:10, where we see the gathering together of the waters being named Yamim, (a proper noun), the word used for the gathering together of the waters is miqweh, (or mikveh, Yiddish), and this is the word for an immersion pool. Thus we have an immersion pool hidden right there in the text of the opening creation account, and we know there are things hidden or kept secret from the foundation of the world, (Mat 13:35 -> Psa 78:2).

What therefore are the Six Yamim of Creation? Certainly, at the very least, they are an immersion into the doctrine. Moreover a mikweh has seven steps: what is the seventh? Shabbat full immersion. And immersion into Meshiah is an immersion into his death, (Rom 6:3), by full immersion into his Testimony.

 

[trophy33]

I am not sure if you're deliberately trying to shoot your own argument in foot - or just not paying attention to your posts.

Section 19 makes it clear that they affirm all TEN commandments as the moral law of God binding on all humanity from Eden to this very day..

My point is that its irrelevant. You are just cherrypicking one thing from one old confession to support your SDA teaching, while you reject the other parts. But without those other parts, you are taking it out of context.

 

[oikonomia]

Not hard to find. It's in the 2nd book of the Bible.

Exodus 2: 3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.

Convocation is translated from:

[*StrongsHebrew*]
4744
מקרא
miqrâ' mik-raw'
From H7121; something called {out} that {is} a public meeting (the {act} the {persons} or the place); also a rehearsal: - {assembly} {calling} {convocation} reading.

I acknowledge there is the church and churches and much said about that in the New Testament.
In the New Testament is there an occurence of someone being in "a church service?"

 

[Gary K]

I acknowledge there is the church and churches and much said about that in the New Testament.
In the New Testament is there an occurence of someone being in "a church service?"

What are the synagogues?

Acts 13: 42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Paul taught in the synagogues on Sabbath all over Asia.

Jesus regularly attended the synagogue on Sabbath.

Luke 4: 15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.
16 ¶ And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

 

[oikonomia]

What are the synagogues?

A synagogue is a physical building.
A church is not a physical building if we wish to go by the Bible.

Acts 13: 42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

So what?
He preached by the seashore.
He preached on a mountain top.
He preached on the porch of the temple.
He preached in the house of Simon the Leper.

Paul taught in the synagogues on Sabbath all over Asia.

Nothing is said about him conducting a service.
And that was a good place to announce the new covenant gospel to his countrymen - the synogogues.
And the time to get the most of them together there was on the Sabbath.

Jesus regularly attended the synagogue on Sabbath.

Same reason as above.
Custom had it that that was the best time and place to reach a gathering of His countrymen
according to the flesh.

Luke 4: 15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.
16 ¶ And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

Same opportunity taken advantage of as above.

You're fighting bravely like a gladiator. But do you ever fear your fighting the wrong battle?
Paul spoke of some teachers whose AIM was off. They were not calibrated to hit the real target.
They misaimed.

. . . some, having misaimed, have turned aside to vain talking,
Desiring to be teachers of the law, though they understand neither the things that they say,
nor concerning what they confidently affirm. (1 Tim. 1:6b,7)

These were colleagues in gospel preaching whom Paul had to tell faithful Timothy
he should exhort not to teach differently (from the teaching of the apostles).

Even as I exhorted you, when I was going into Macedonia, to remain in Ephesus in order that you might charge certain ones not to teach different things nor to give heed to myths and unending genealogies, which produce questionings rather than God’s economy, which is in faith. (vs. 3,4)

"Myths and unending geneologies" were only samples of things they misaimed at.
There were then and there are now subjects supposed Gospel preachers can be obsessed with
and MISAIM from God's economy which is in faith. They shoot much. But they shoot at the wrong target too much and misaim
at the bull's eye of the dispensing of God into man - God’s economy, which is in [ the realm of ] faith.

 

[Gary K]

A synagogue is a physical building.
A church is not a physical building if we wish to go by the Bible.

So what?
He preached by the seashore.
He preached on a mountain top.
He preached on the porch of the temple.
He preached in the house of Simon the Leper.

Nothing is said about him conducting a service.
And that was a good place to announce the new covenant gospel to his countrymen - the synogogues.
And the time to get the most of them together there was on the Sabbath.


Same reason as above.
Custom had it that that was the best time and place to reach a gathering of His countrymen
according to the flesh.

Same opportunity taken advantage of as above.

You're fighting bravely like a gladiator. But do you ever fear your fighting the wrong battle?
Paul spoke of some teachers whose AIM was off. They were not calibrated to hit the real target.
They misaimed.

. . . some, having misaimed, have turned aside to vain talking,
Desiring to be teachers of the law, though they understand neither the things that they say,
nor concerning what they confidently affirm. (1 Tim. 1:6b,7)

These were colleagues in gospel preaching whom Paul had to tell faithful Timothy
he should exhort not to teach differently (from the teaching of the apostles).

Even as I exhorted you, when I was going into Macedonia, to remain in Ephesus in order that you might charge certain ones not to teach different things nor to give heed to myths and unending genealogies, which produce questionings rather than God’s economy, which is in faith. (vs. 3,4)

"Myths and unending geneologies" were only samples of things they misaimed at.
There were then and there are now subjects supposed Gospel preachers can be obsessed with
and MISAIM from God's economy which is in faith. They shoot much. But they shoot at the wrong target too much and misaim
at the bull's eye of the dispensing of God into man - God’s economy, which is in [ the realm of ] faith.

You asked for an example from the new testament of attending church on Sabbath, A synagogue is a Jewish church. Now you're unhappy because I gave examples of both Paul and Jesus attending church on Sabbath.

 

[oikonomia]

You asked for an example from the new testament of attending church on Sabbath, A synagogue is a Jewish church. Now you're unhappy because I gave examples of both Paul and Jesus attending church on Sabbath.

What makes you think I am unhappy?
I have confidence in the Lord that in our lives the Holy Spirit has to eventually have the last word.

 

[HIM]

Here "The end of days" is proposed as a proof that they worshipped on the Sabbath.

Have you a take on Matt 24 in relation to the end of times and the Sabbath?
Oikonomia? So how does one with such a nomenclature satisfy their needs?

Pittsburg? Born and raised in Harrisburg. I have friend last name Ruppert who lives in your neck of the woods. Nice guy. Going through it right now though. Needs prayers.

 

[Clare73]

I assume this is your way of saying you have no such text.

We have you not quoting Heb 3:7-4:11 that any point saying something like "Jesus is our Sabbath"

We have you not quoting any "God is Trinity" nor "God is sovereign" texts.

 

[oikonomia]

Have you a take on Matt 24 in relation to the end of times and the Sabbath?
Oikonomia? So how does one with such a nomenclature satisfy their needs?

Pittsburg? Born and raised in Harrisburg. I have friend last name Ruppert who lives in your neck of the woods. Nice guy. Going through it right now though. Needs prayers.

I am taking a moment to pray for Ruppert.
If you feel moved when you read this take moment to petition for him.

 

[oikonomia]

Have you a take on Matt 24 in relation to the end of times and the Sabbath?

Are you referring to this verse?
And pray that your flight may not be in winter, nor on a Sabbath, (Matt. 24:20)

Perhaps you are referring to something else in chapter 24 of Matthew ?

 

[HIM]

I am taking a moment to pray for Ruppert.
If you feel moved when you read this take moment to petition for him.

His family has been in the news for the last month. Grandson and other grandfather were killed in a traffic accident that was the grandfather's fault. My friend is the surviving grandfather. His son is really going through it and has been pursuing justice. ,