The death penalty

[TheOtherHockeyMom]

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RE: So, just out of curiosity, would you prefer to live in a place where all the crimes you listed were punishable by death?

YES.


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So, if your daughter was not a virgin and not married, you would be OK with her execution? If a child had chronic misbehavior problems, then you would be OK with their death?
Sounds like honor killing to me. How do you feel about that?

 

[Webers_Home]

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RE: So, if your daughter was not a virgin and not married, you would be OK with her execution?

YES.

The reason I approve is that executions are the Bible God's prescription for putting away certain kinds of evil. A promiscuous girl is evil; pure and simple.

RE: If a child had chronic misbehavior problems, then you would be OK with their death?

Go easy with that word "child". Capital punishment in this case pertains only to a child that's old enough to drink (Deut 21:18-21). In American society, the drinking age is 21.

Here's how this works. A child of 21 is old enough to get a job, move out on their own, and support themselves rather than stay at home mooching off their parents, loafing around the house surfing the internet, listening to their iPod, Twittering, playing with apps on their iPhone, and spending their evenings at wild parties and beer busts.

When a 21 year old kid is still living at home, it's reasonable to expect them to comply with their parents' rules while living under their parents' roof, and also to help out with chores around the house rather than raiding the refrigerator whenever they want and helping themselves to foods and beverages they didn't contribute one red cent towards.

†. 2Thss 3:10-13 . . For even when we were with you, we used to give you this order: if anyone will not work, neither let him eat. For we hear that some among you are leading an undisciplined life, doing no work at all, but acting like busybodies. Now such persons we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ to work in quiet fashion and eat their own bread. But as for you, brethren, do not grow weary of doing good.

One excellent alternative to finding a job and moving out, is to join the US military service for a few years of active duty. That will get the kid out of the house and on their own doing something honorable and earning a pay check rather than just being an on-going burden and nuisance to their aging parents, and a non productive loser all the time.

RE: Sounds like honor killing to me. How do you feel about that?

My personal feelings about capital punishment are on public display in msgs 5, 6, 9, 15, 16, 19, and the one you're reading now.

C.L.I.F.F.
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[2ndRateMind]

It surprises me that in this thread not much has been said about forgiveness. Jesus went around forgiving people their sins, whether He knew what they were or not. 'Your sins are forgiven you' is a constant refrain in the Gospels.

Moreover, He commanded us to do the same; it's in the Lord's Prayer. '...forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.'

Once you have done that, there is no space in society for retribution for criminal or sinful activity, and vengeance is left to God, where the scriptures say it belongs. All that is left to us is the possibility that we might correct and restore a criminal to moral health. And you can't do that if you execute him or her. It's harder to rehabilitate a criminal than simply destroy them, but, as Christians, we are called to do what is good and right, not merely what is easy.

And there is a practical reason not to execute criminals. We need to know where and why they went wrong, so that we can take preventative action to stop others going wrong in the same way. Criminals, in this view, are vital repositories of precisely the psychological and social information we need to construct a better world. All that information is lost if we kill them.

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind

 

[Webers_Home]

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It's perfectly natural that you would find a way to justify resisting God's commandments mandating the death penalty in capital cases.

†. Rom 8:5-8 . . For those who live according to the base nature, set their minds on the things of the base nature, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind-set of the base nature is death, but the mind-set of the Spirit is life and peace; because the mind-set of the base nature is hostile toward God— for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then, those who live according to the base nature cannot please God.

Myself, being a worshipper of the Bible's God, am not at liberty to discredit His wishes in capital cases.

†. 1John 5:16-17 . . If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.

†. 1John 2:3-5 . . Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

†. 1John 5:3 . . For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments.

†. Mark 12:28-30 . . Which is the most important commandment of all? And Jesus answered him: The most important of all the commandments is: Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength

†. Mtt 4:10 . . Away with you, Satan! For it is written: You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.

†. Rev 14:6-7 . . And I saw another angel flying through the sky, carrying the everlasting gospel to preach to the people who dwell on the earth— to every nation, tribe, language, and people. Fear God! he shouted. Give glory to Him! For the time has come when He will sit as judge. Worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea, and all the springs of water!

C.L.I.F.F.
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[2ndRateMind]

Hi Webers_Home. I was going to ask how you reconciled your bloodthirsty prescriptions with Jesus' redeeming life and mission. But then, I realised, there would be no point. You do not reconcile them at all, just ignore scriptures that are inconvenient to your judgemental attitude. You quote the letter of the Bible, but utterly fail to grapple with it's spirit, or it's central message that redemption is for all, whatever their sins or crimes.

Your choice. But, at the end of days, I would not care to be in your place. You judge, and condemn, and stand to be judged, and condemned, as those who live by the sword, stand to die by the sword.

You have been warned.

I do not intend to argue this with you, since I doubt you are sufficiently open-minded to make the exercise useful. Just be careful that on Judgement Day, when Jesus calls for those who know Him, you do not mistake Him for some no-account, woolly-minded, lily-livered liberal.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[rcorlew]

Hi Webers_Home. I was going to ask how you reconciled your bloodthirsty prescriptions with Jesus' redeeming life and mission. But then, I realised, there would be no point. You do not reconcile them at all, just ignore scriptures that are inconvenient to your judgemental attitude. You quote the letter of the Bible, but utterly fail to grapple with it's spirit, or it's central message that redemption is for all, whatever their sins or crimes.

Your choice. But, at the end of days, I would not care to be in your place. You judge, and condemn, and stand to be judged, and condemned, as those who live by the sword, stand to die by the sword.

You have been warned.

I do not intend to argue this with you, since I doubt you are sufficiently open-minded to make the exercise useful. Just be careful that on Judgement Day, when Jesus calls for those who know Him, you do not mistake Him for some no-account, woolly-minded, lily-livered liberal.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Webers Home like to use verses so completely unrelated in any way shape or form relevant to the topic at hand.

 

[rcorlew]

Oh yeah, let us not forget these verses either:

Matthew 5:7 "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy. --Jesus

James 2:13 For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment. --James, brother of Jesus

 

[jarrettcpr]

I agree with the above quotes and have one more to add...

"Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful." (Luke 6:36)

IMO, killing one who is already confined to a cell is not the Christian thing to do. Once they are held captive they are no longer a threat to the rest of society. They are now under the Gov'ts control. There is no reason to kill them. We are not animals, but Christians are suppose to be imitators of Christ, and I just don't see Christ killing one who is already confined and locked up.

Also, the sad truth it many innocent people are killed b/c of the death penalty. It doesn't even act as a deterrent. Plus, I don't think Gov't should have that much power to kill someone in such a manner as the death penalty does. One other thing is it is actually more expansive for the state to have someone on death row than it is for them to lock them up for life.

There are many reasons why I do not support Gov't exucating people who are locked up.

 

[Webers_Home]

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RE: I was going to ask how you reconciled your bloodthirsty prescriptions with Jesus' redeeming life and mission.

There are already plenty of reconciliations on public display in msgs 5, 6, 9, 15, 16, 19, 23, and the one before you now.

RE: it's central message that redemption is for all, whatever their sins or crimes.

Redemption plays no role whatsoever in one's civic duties and responsibilities. Paul warned his fellow believers in Rome that if they crossed the law; they have to pay because it is God's sovereign will that Christians settle their debts to society; even to the point of death.

†. Rom 13:3-4 . . For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

According to Paul, civil servants are God's ministers. Therefore, whoever opposes capital punishment is God's enemy.

†. Rom 13:1-3 . . Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.

I'd say that right about now, you're in very hot water.

RE: those who live by the sword, stand to die by the sword.

I have never lived by the sword. I worked at an honest trade as a professional welder for 40 years before retiring from Federal civil service in 2006.

BTW: Did you not see the word sword in Rom 13:4? Just in case your eyes were holden the first time you skimmed past it in one of the paragraphs above, here's a reprint.

"But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.”

It is God's sovereign will that Christians guilty of capital crimes not be pitied.

†. 1John 5:16-17 . . If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.

One of the keynotes of Messiah Jesus' pending kingdom is justice; and I don't have to tell you what that means; do I.

†. Isa 9:7 . . Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Not to pick on you personally, but you are so typical of Christians unskilled in Old Testament Christology who have their heads buried in the sands of ignorance like the proverbial ostrich. The Bible's Christ is not the bleeding-heart sob sister that so many of you seem to think he is. No; he's a real he-man; a conservative hard-liner who's going to implement a zero-tolerance policy towards crime in his kingdom.

†. Mtt 13:40-42 . .As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

†. Mtt 13:47-50 . . The kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the age: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Those who get in Christ's way, will be summarily executed while he looks on.

†. Luke 19:27 . . But bring here those enemies of mine who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.

The Bible's Christ intends to rule as a despotic monarch.

†. Ps 2:4-12 . . I will declare the decree: Yhvh has said to me: "You are My son, today I have begotten you. Ask of Me, and I will give you the nations for your inheritance, and the ends of the earth for your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron; you shall dash them to pieces like a potter's vessel."

. . Now therefore, be wise, O kings; learn a lesson, you judges of the earth. Serve Yhvh with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way when his wrath is kindled but a little.

C.L.I.F.F.
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[rcorlew]

You know WH, I think that you are missing one vitally important item in your exegesis, which is quite extensive might I add.

Who was the judge?

 

[Webers_Home]

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RE: your exegesis, which is quite extensive might I add

So now you're criticizing me for being, in your opinion, too wordy?

It is my personal conviction that if a man doesn't believe himself qualified to speak comprehensively for God on a world-wide internet Christian forum; then he needs to sit down, shut up; and keep his opinions to himself.

†. 1Pet 4:11 . . If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God

RE: Who was the judge?

You'll have to first tell me what you're talking about before I can decide whether or not to go to the trouble of composing a reply to your question.

C.L.I.F.F.
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[rcorlew]

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RE: your exegesis, which is quite extensive might I add

So now you're criticizing me for being, in your opinion, too wordy?

It is my personal conviction that if a man doesn't believe himself qualified to speak comprehensively for God on a world-wide internet Christian forum; then he needs to sit down, shut up; and keep his opinions to himself.

†. 1Pet 4:11 . . If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God

RE: Who was the judge?

You'll have to first tell me what you're talking about before I can decide whether or not to go to the trouble of composing a reply to your question.

C.L.I.F.F.
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First off, I was not criticizing you for lengthy exegesis, I believe that in your expression of thought you have actively sought out the council of God, not merely one verse or two, but the whole council. Not one of your exegesis have I found to begin with "I think" or "I feel", so for that I commend you.

Second off, by asking the question of who is the Judge, I am referring Jesus stating that He, referring to his position in the Godhead, is seeking mercy and if we knew what that meant we would not condemn those who are not guilty.

 

[Webers_Home]

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RE: I was not criticizing you for lengthy exegesis,

Sorry about the negative reaction. It's just that I get so much opposition all the time on internet Christian forums that I've come to expect it as a matter of course.

C.L.I.F.F.
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[rcorlew]

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RE: I was not criticizing you for lengthy exegesis,

Sorry about the negative reaction. It's just that I get so much opposition all the time on internet Christian forums that I've come to expect it as a matter of course.

C.L.I.F.F.
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Haha, if you look at some of my posts I believe they can even be longer than yours sometimes, but it is important to put together clear thoughts and sometimes that can take a while. I find it rather refreshing that somebody actually uses the Bible to discern their viewpoints from, as this is the Council of God, good for all areas of our lives.

I like engaging people in scripture, this removes me from the equation, and it becomes God speaking to them not me, and trust me sometimes I can be a mess inside because as Jesus said that he did not come to bring peace but a sword, and that sword will constantly be at work separating flesh from spirit. Sometimes I will press a matter to see how somebody develops their viewpoint, to see if the Sword is at work in them also, if it is then I will listen, because then the voice of the Good Shepard will be heard.

Peace brother!

 

[Harry3142]

As Christians our obligation is to live our own lives in such a way that if 'the state' looks our way, it will see actions that are not deserving of death. It is neither our right nor our privilege to tell 'the state' that it must obey us, and do only what we approve of. Their obligation is to God, not us.

 

[david_x]

As Christians our obligation is to live our own lives in such a way that if 'the state' looks our way, it will see actions that are not deserving of death. It is neither our right nor our privilege to tell 'the state' that it must obey us, and do only what we approve of. Their obligation is to God, not us.

We should live lives that bring no condemnation on ourselves, so that if the state does condemn us they are seen for the corruption and ultimately punished.

We have a voice in this country, one that allows for us to not be part of the nation but still mold it into something that does good things. We would be foolish and wicked servants to not use what God has given us.

 

[carolyn20]

You're right - Thou Shalt Not Kill is the rule.
If we had the death penalty here in England we would have executed dozens of innocent people in the 1970s and 1980s

 

[Bro_Sam]

Does Jesus' life and teaching demonstrate that there is a better way than 'an eye for eye, a tooth for a tooth', a way that involves redemption and restoration, or should we continue to pander to ancient, and scripturally overridden, codes of justice?

Actually, it was Jesus who instituted capital punishment in the first place.

But let's get sepecific. Do you think everyone executed is actually guilty of the alleged crime? In many nations in the world, without the rigorous legal system in the States, a trial is a formality. And even in the States, it seems likely that the odd innocent is put to death.

So, if you support the death penalty, you are supporting the execution of innocent people. Seems a lot like murder to me. Or do you think that, on balance, it is better that a few innocent people get executed providing a lot of guilty people also die?

Irrelevant. The issue isn't who is guilty and who is not, but whether or not capital punishment is consistent with the teachings of Christ.

[quote=Emmy] Dear 2ndRateMind. I don`t know about a better way, I believe the death penalty is preferable to a long incarceration. Yet I cannot resist pointing out that a quick death is most cruel and depriving the criminal of REPENTANCE, which is against Jesus`s " love for your enemies". The worst sinner should be given a chance to repent, and ask God`s Forgiveness. Life behind bars and realising the utter Evil committed, is a deserved punishment. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ. [/quote]

Yeah, because God wasn’t smart enough to take that into account when He instituted the death penalty.The book of Romans is very clear that no man will be able to claim they never had a chance to repent when they stand before God.

'Thou shalt not kill' seems pretty clear to me.

...Which is ironic, since the verse doesn’t say that.

Even if those people are guilty, it doesn't make it right for us to murder them.

We’re not talking about murder. We’re talking about capital punishment. Please try to keep up.

[quote]That is what the death penalty is, institutionalised murder, and in my opinion it doesn't make sense: that person killed someone, therefore we will kill them as well?[/quote]

Actually, it isn’t murder. The Bible defines murder as man taking God’s authority to take life upon himself and killing another human being outside of God’s authority. Because God has instituted and ordained capital punishment, it is, by definition, NOT murder.

That’s why the Bible doesn’t use the word commonly translated as “murder”, ratsach, to refer to capital punishment, killing in warfare, or killing in self defense

[quote]That is 'eye for an eye' and as Christians we are taught there is a better way.[/quote]

Really? Who teaches a better way than God’s way?

 

[2ndRateMind]

Hey Bro Sam,

You've been reading that darned OT again. It should carry a health warning, I think. Along the lines of: 'This text can seriously damage your moral stature'.

But let's get sepecific. Do you think everyone executed is actually guilty of the alleged crime? In many nations in the world, without the rigorous legal system in the States, a trial is a formality. And even in the States, it seems likely that the odd innocent is put to death.

So, if you support the death penalty, you are supporting the execution of innocent people. Seems a lot like murder to me. Or do you think that, on balance, it is better that a few innocent people get executed providing a lot of guilty people also die?

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[jiminpa]

Hey Bro Sam,

You've been reading that darned OT again. It should carry a health warning, I think. Along the lines of: 'This text can seriously damage your moral stature'.

But let's get sepecific. Do you think everyone executed is actually guilty of the alleged crime? In many nations in the world, without the rigorous legal system in the States, a trial is a formality. And even in the States, it seems likely that the odd innocent is put to death.

So, if you support the death penalty, you are supporting the execution of innocent people. Seems a lot like murder to me. Or do you think that, on balance, it is better that a few innocent people get executed providing a lot of guilty people also die?

Best wishes, 2RM.

Maybe that is whty God originally invoked the death penalty for bearing false witness. I wonder how trials would go if the witnesses and, especially, the lawyers were afraid for their lives to lie in court. I'll bet we would see a lot more truth in the legal system.