The death penalty

[Epiphoskei]

Yes, in the Law given to Israel, there is the death penalty for a few things. Eye for an Eye and Tooth for a Tooth. However, when Jesus came he abolished these things and instructing us to "turn the other cheek". That does not mean you gotta let people walk over you, it simply means that we must be forgiving. Since we all have been forgiven. We are to reflect God's Light to this world. To do so we must treat others as the Lord has treated us. With love and forgiveness.

Judge not lest you be judged.

That was from Mathew 7:1-2

Judging is playing the role of the judge in your heart.

Application of that line of thought to civil law will always result in a society without any law of any kind. The forgiveness we have recieved exempts us from every aspect of punishment (cf. I John 4:17-18). You cannot apply that principle to civil law. Are we to instruct our justice system that it cannot hire judges, assemble juries, or punish?

 

[lawtonfogle]

I'll ask you the same question: do you believe that God has the authority to ordain capital punishment?

Are you an open theist?

My problem with the death penalty is this. Short of God coming down and saying "Kill this person for his crimes," there is too much a chance for human error. Even if God says 'Death penalty for murder is allowed', I still would not trust my ability to decide some person was guilty enough of murder to execute them unless I witnessed the murder myself. And it has been shown that in many, if not most, cases of someone being given the death penalty, there is less than ideal evidence against them, often times they had a poor lawyer, and sometimes the evidence is nothing more than circumstantial.

To put it shortly, my problem with the death penalty is not in killing the person, but in knowing the person you are killing is actually guilty. Short of divine intervention, there is too much of a chance they are innocent to kill them.

 

[lawtonfogle]

Yes. If God ordains something and tells us to do it, then it's right for us to do it.

Very bizzare that I'd have to explain that to somebody with a Christian icon.

I don't. How many Christians are ok with marrying a female child to their man who raped them, as commanded in Deut 22:28-29 (and charging him a years wage, but in no other way punishing the rapist)? How many Christians are ok with a man marrying his brother's childless widow and bearing her a son, even if he is already married, as is also commanded in the Bible?

We have moved a long way from following the laws, and I am not even talking about the ritual laws for forgiveness, that the Bible list. So I don't actually find it surprising with people have their own list of rules which they believe the Bible supports which in reality the Bible does not.

 

[Epiphoskei]

My problem with the death penalty is this. Short of God coming down and saying "Kill this person for his crimes," there is too much a chance for human error. Even if God says 'Death penalty for murder is allowed', I still would not trust my ability to decide some person was guilty enough of murder to execute them unless I witnessed the murder myself. And it has been shown that in many, if not most, cases of someone being given the death penalty, there is less than ideal evidence against them, often times they had a poor lawyer, and sometimes the evidence is nothing more than circumstantial.

To put it shortly, my problem with the death penalty is not in killing the person, but in knowing the person you are killing is actually guilty. Short of divine intervention, there is too much of a chance they are innocent to kill them.

Indeed. The law that said we should have the death penalty also demanded that no one be convicted apart from the testemony of two or three witnesses. At the very least, the rules for evidence are too loose in our modern application.

 

[I-can-see]

Application of that line of thought to civil law will always result in a society without any law of any kind. The forgiveness we have recieved exempts us from every aspect of punishment (cf. I John 4:17-18). You cannot apply that principle to civil law. Are we to instruct our justice system that it cannot hire judges, assemble juries, or punish?

Of course not, if it your job then it is your job. The bible says to abide by the law of the land. The justice system is the justice system, it is how it is. We cannot change that. However, since we ARE in a country that allows for fair trial, we do NOT have to say "Off with his head" so to speak. As citizens of free countries that have juries, then we should not all shout "To death with him!"

 

[lawtonfogle]

Indeed. The law that said we should have the death penalty also demanded that no one be convicted apart from the testemony of two or three witnesses. At the very least, the rules for evidence are too loose in our modern application.

Back then, people must not have lied all that much. These days, it would be far too easy to find 2/3 people to lie to get an enemy killed.

 

[lawtonfogle]

Of course not, if it your job then it is your job. The bible says to abide by the law of the land. The justice system is the justice system, it is how it is. We cannot change that. However, since we ARE in a country that allows for fair trial, we do NOT have to say "Off with his head" so to speak. As citizens of free countries that have juries, then we should not all shout "To death with him!"

But out justice system, to some degree, allows for us to change it if enough of us agree it should be changed. A super majority can alter the Constitution, fundamentally altering any part of the justice system we want to. Thus, we are given the power to alter the justice system, so then comes the question of how should we.

 

[Epiphoskei]

Of course not, if it your job then it is your job. The bible says to abide by the law of the land. The justice system is the justice system, it is how it is. We cannot change that. However, since we ARE in a country that allows for fair trial, we do NOT have to say "Off with his head" so to speak. As citizens of free countries that have juries, then we should not all shout "To death with him!"

That doesn't resolve the problem. You are trying to apply Christian forgiveness to only one area of our civil justice system but have not explained why not to apply it to everything.

 

[Bro_Sam]

Yes, in the Law given to Israel, there is the death penalty for a few things. Eye for an Eye and Tooth for a Tooth. However, when Jesus came he abolished these things and instructing us to "turn the other cheek". That does not mean you gotta let people walk over you, it simply means that we must be forgiving. Since we all have been forgiven. We are to reflect God's Light to this world. To do so we must treat others as the Lord has treated us. With love and forgiveness.

Judge not lest you be judged.

That was from Mathew 7:1-2

Judging is playing the role of the judge in your heart.

I like the way that you end your silly eisegesis by taking scripture out of context.

Did you even bother to read all of Matthew 7?

 

[2ndRateMind]

Hey Bro Sam. I asked you a question, earlier in the thread. Maybe you just missed it, or maybe it's uncomfortable for you. Nevertheless, it is a question that people in favour of the death penalty need to confront, given the fallibility of human systems of justice. So here it is again. Is it OK to execute a few innocent people, provided most people put to death are guilty?

I am genuinely interested in your position on this.

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind.

 

[Bro_Sam]

Hey Bro Sam. I asked you a question, earlier in the thread. Maybe you just missed it, or maybe it's uncomfortable for you. Nevertheless, it is a question that people in favour of the death penalty need to confront, given the fallibility of human systems of justice. So here it is again. Is it OK to execute a few innocent people, provided most people put to death are guilty?

I am genuinely interested in your position on this.

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind.

And, again, my answer is that the issue is not whether or not mistakes are made and innocent people killed, but whether or not the premise of the OP is true.

Of course it isn't OK. Now that that's out of the way, please try to focus on the topic.

 

[2ndRateMind]

Well, Bro Sam, can you not see the inconsistancy there? It's OK to kill guilty people legally, but it's not OK to kill innocent people legally. OK. But all the systems of justice we are aware of are fallible, and inevitably if you go about killing people you think are guilty, you are going to end up killing people that you think are guilty, but are in fact, innocent. You just can't have it both ways. You have to decide whether it is better kill innocents or better not to kill innocents, and if you decide the latter, to decide not to kill, at all.

As a general observation, I have to say that I wish America would abolish the death penalty. It would give it far greater moral weight when dealing with truly uncivilised nations.

Finally, I just want to observe that I wrote the OP. I am perfectly aware of what was in it, but reserve the right to pursue whatever interesting avenues of enquiry open up.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[jiminpa]

Back then, people must not have lied all that much. These days, it would be far too easy to find 2/3 people to lie to get an enemy killed.

Not if the penalty for perjury was death.

 

[marlowe007]

Hi Webers_Home. I was going to ask how you reconciled your bloodthirsty prescriptions with Jesus' redeeming life and mission. But then, I realised, there would be no point. You do not reconcile them at all, just ignore scriptures that are inconvenient to your judgemental attitude. You quote the letter of the Bible, but utterly fail to grapple with it's spirit, or it's central message that redemption is for all, whatever their sins or crimes.

Ignoring scriptures? You say the death penalty is incompatible with the teachings of Jesus, but are quite willing to ignore the parable in Luke 19:27, in which Christ, referring to Himself as the King, states plainly that the enemies of His Kingdom should be slain.

 

[Bro_Sam]

OK. But all the systems of justice we are aware of are fallible, and inevitably if you go about killing people you think are guilty, you are going to end up killing people that you think are guilty, but are in fact, innocent. You just can't have it both ways. You have to decide whether it is better kill innocents or better not to kill innocents, and if you decide the latter, to decide not to kill, at all.

As a general observation, I have to say that I wish America would abolish the death penalty. It would give it far greater moral weight when dealing with truly uncivilised nations.

Finally, I just want to observe that I wrote the OP. I am perfectly aware of what was in it, but reserve the right to pursue whatever interesting avenues of enquiry open up.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Irrelevant. The topic of this thread is whether or not capital punishment is consistent with Christ's teachings, not whether or not our justice system is in fallible.

 

[I-can-see]

I like the way that you end your silly eisegesis by taking scripture out of context.

Did you even bother to read all of Matthew 7?

Yes, I have Sam. I have read all the gospels over and over, and each time I learn something new that I had missed the previous time reading it. Yes, I am taking the passage out of context....and applying it to the here and now. Even though Jesus was not speaking on the justice system, His words still apply to our life and the situation. If you do not live by His words, then I am afraid for you Sam.

Judge not lest you be judged...the message is clear. We are NOT to judge people, since we have no grounds to do so.

9But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” Jude 1:9

Even Michael himself did not bring forth an accusation to Satan! We have to remember our place, and remember were we came from. Michael is not guilty of sin, yet when he spoke to the one who ORIGINATED sin, who tempted Eve and caused the fall of humankind from grace, who rebels against the Lord, he did not say ANYTHING to accuse him! Do you not get it Sam? If an ARCHANGEL did not accuse SATAN HIMSELF, then who are we to accuse a fellow human, and sentence them to death? We are to be like Christ, that means put away your finger of accusation and show the world the Light that is inside of each and every brother and sister in Christ.

 

[2ndRateMind]

Irrelevant. The topic of this thread is whether or not capital punishment is consistent with Christ's teachings, not whether or not our justice system is in fallible.

Excuse me. It's my thread, I started it. I decide the topic, and what is relevant. If you don't wish to play by my rules, start your own thread.

I can even suggest a suitable title for you: 'How not casting the first stone is consistent with the death penalty'

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[2ndRateMind]

Ignoring scriptures? You say the death penalty is incompatible with the teachings of Jesus, but are quite willing to ignore the parable in Luke 19:27, in which Christ, referring to Himself as the King, states plainly that the enemies of His Kingdom should be slain.

Actually, He does nothing of the sort. He is talking in parables - you know, metaphors, allegories? The man that calls for his enemies to be slain is not Jesus, but the 'severe master'. Nowhere in the gospels does Christ say His enemies should be slain. Indeed, the sermon on the mount is quite specific: 'Love your enemies, and pray for them that persecute you'.

But I say to those who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also...

Luke 6 27-29

The difference between the attitudes is obvious, I would have thought. Or are you one of those who do not hear?

Best, 2RM.

 

[Bro_Sam]

Excuse me. It's my thread, I started it. I decide the topic

And you did decide the topic. Now stick to it.

 

[Bro_Sam]

Yes, I have Sam.

Good. So then, I don't have to waste my time pointing out to you that Matthew 7 commands us to judge.

Yes, I am taking the passage out of context

Thank you for admitting your dishonesty.

Even though Jesus was not speaking on the justice system, His words still apply to our life and the situation. If you do not live by His words, then I am afraid for you Sam.

But, by your own admission, they're not an accurate representation of His words.

Judge not lest you be judged...the message is clear.

But that's not the message. Even you don't believe that's the message. If you believed that was really the message, then you wouldn't have isolated that verse out of context.

We are NOT to judge people, since we have no grounds to do so.

Then how do you explain the Bible's repeated command to us to judge, not the least of which appears just a few verses down from the verse you claim says that we are not to judge?

9But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” Jude 1:9

Even Michael himself did not bring forth an accusation to Satan! We have to remember our place, and remember were we came from. Michael is not guilty of sin, yet when he spoke to the one who ORIGINATED sin, who tempted Eve and caused the fall of humankind from grace, who rebels against the Lord, he did not say ANYTHING to accuse him! Do you not get it Sam?

Sure, I get it. You have a terrible habit of taking verses out of context and twisting their meaning in order to prop up your silly arguments.

If an ARCHANGEL did not accuse SATAN HIMSELF, then who are we to accuse a fellow human, and sentence them to death?

As I pointed out to you earlier, as it is Christ who commands us to judge, if it is wrong for us to judge, then Christ is wrong for commanding us to judge.