The church is doing more to keep people single, than to bring them together?

[LoveDivine]

Thanks for the clarification! I completely understand your point. I may have more questions in the future, but I'll take some time to review your examples first. If I still have questions afterward, I hope it's okay to knock on your inbox door.


Your post is the reason I brought this up, so I'm pleased to see we're on the same page! Before delving into homemaking, I didn't fully grasp the significance of hospitality. However, as I've explored homemaking, I've realized that opening your home is just one facet of hospitality. There are numerous other ways to practice it in all aspects of our lives. It's been truly enlightening.

I can confidently say that my journey into homemaking has been an eye-opener. My previous understanding of homemaking was limited to the stereotype of staying home to cook, clean, and raise kids. To my surprise, it goes far beyond that.


It does help! It does make me curious if others perceive homemaking as I once did. My homemaking curriculum presents a broader perspective, quite distinct from the modern view. It encompasses entrepreneurship, job applications, resume building, interview skills, real estate transactions, travel etiquette, alongside the basics of cooking, cleaning, personal hygiene, and modest attire. It also delves into accounting, bookkeeping, investing, all while emphasizing the importance of keeping God and his word at the forefront and maintaining a biblically oriented family life.

But hospitality was not something I remember learning when I was younger during these lessons. I think I just breezed through it like the rest of the curriculum and didn't really understand or appreciate it. But I was surprised at how important it was within homemaking but also how important it was just as a Christian.

I think if more people learned about how they could be hospitable, some of the problems like the ones posed about how the church handles singles, wouldn't be problems at all.

Sure PM me anytime

 

[Saucy]

I don't think we can look at the early church as a guide for relationships because arranged marriages were the norm in their culture. They likely didn't get a choice on who they were to marry and these arranged marriages were not to pursue love but to provide a pairing that would be beneficial to both families—no one dated. There was no trying out period. In most situations, men and women didn't even meet each other until the marriage ceremony. Today's society is so different from that of the early church.

Women and men both have different roles. Today, women want to be more independent, but that's why a lot of marriages fail. You have to put away self and serve your spouse. Hopefully, you have a spouse who is seeking out your needs as well, so your needs are met. But marriages start breaking down when someone begins to get selfish and starts thinking of themselves.

As someone who is working towards being a pastor, I know the person who agrees to marry me was meant for me. I can't just marry whoever I want. I can't even marry a new or weak Christian. A pastor's wife has a tough job to do. That will be a support role to aid in the ministry in which I was called to do.

But I think part of the problem is modern feminism which seeks to blur the lines of men's and women's roles. Women are more independent which means men can't be who they were designed to be: leaders.

 

[Tranquil Bondservant]

Ohh, I see. I think I'm getting a better grasp of this now. So does this mean that if a woman is married, she should prioritize her individual calling from God over her role as a wife? For instance, if God has called her to be a missionary or an academic, she should wholeheartedly pursue that calling despite God saying, 'this is what you should do as a wife'? I'm unsure on how husband and home fit into the hierarchy of God's plans for us. Is it more of an individual relationship situation where, for example, if her husband fully supports her pursuit of her calling, then it aligns with God's will?

It's a matter of situation and God's will and the hierarchy is subservient to that. Women aren't made to rule the home, they're made to rule Creation with man (Gen 1:26-29). That includes the home if that's what the person is either called to or desires (if said desire in accordance with the will of God). But if for example the person does have a calling for missionary work overseas but is either married or will be, she will not be homemaking if she's out overseas evangelising every day if that makes sense. It's not a matter of ranking what is more valuable, it's a matter of what takes priority and for what reasons.

A good example is the Sabbath: "Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent? “But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here." (Matt 12:5-6)
So even though for the Jews it was against The Law to break the Sabbath, the Jews who were in the temple were not sinning by breaking the Sabbath to do the will of God. The Lord Jesus is greater than the temple, even though for instance a Jew at the time would be breaking the Sabbath by traveling and spreading the Gospel; he would not be sinning. Because to do His (Christ's) will is not sin.
I'm not saying it's a 1:1 correspondence but the same principle that's at play here is the same one that's at play in all of our lives at all times. To do the will of God is not sin or wrong.

Because then I think, what if her husband insists that she should stay at home, and it feels like obeying God's calling clashes with obeying her husband? It's almost as if obeying God becomes a form of disobeying God in this scenario. In that case, would she need to find a way to fulfill her calling while still adhering to God's role for her as a wife?

I don't want to give poor advice here that may harm someone, either you or whoever reads this, but I cannot comment on any individuals situation regarding their husband. What's often forgotten when talking about a wife being in subjection to a partner are the verses right after that: "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of His body." (Eph 5:25-30). The reason why Paul in the following verse 31 cites Genesis 2:24 and references Creation is not for the leaving of the father and mother, but because of husband and wife becoming one flesh. If a wife is truly called to missionary work and the husband believes that she is, then it's incumbent upon the husband to obey God (1 Cor 6:17). They are now one flesh, they are united as one and they are unison in what they do. That does not mean that the husband now has to go off and do missionary work with her but that they still move and act in unison in accordance with the will of God, like two hands that belong to same body. As for an individuals calling I cannot and will not make that determination, but it would have to be clear that it is the will of God to both parties. Or, if one refuses, expressly Biblically clear to your congregation or elders of your church.

How would you approach that line of thinking?

A woman's duty is to Christ first and husband second. If it were not the case a husband would be able to wield the Word of God against a woman to drag her into idolatry if he wanted. If a woman desires this life of a homemaker, prays for it, receives it; then she should "work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men" (Col 3:23). I think this topic is becoming rather over-complicated. It's good and right to fulfill the things in Proverbs 31:10-31. It's good and right to fulfill work as an overseas missionary if that's what you're called to do (thus not being able to fulfill some of Proverbs 31:10-31). It's good and right to have children and raise them in The Lord. It's good and right to not have children if God wills for you not to (or if both parties agree Biblically). Every situation is different but the reason should always be the same. Christ.

Rather, my point was that women who aspire to marriage should equip themselves with the necessary skills and knowledge to navigate the complexities of that role

I don't think you're mistaken at all. It's just that TheLastGeek is saying that women are not restricted solely to a homemaking role or that it's something that you must pursue as a woman and you're saying the same thing in essence.

From what I've read you're approaching homemaking from a different perspective. One of sharing the gospel and fellowshipping with fellow Christians. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that and in fact it's awesome, I would only add that it's not gendered.

I personally don't want to further detract from the thread with more dialogue that isn't in line with the main topic. If you have any further questions about the main topic, the OP or my responses on the subject of the OP then please feel free to ask them. If you have any further questions about other stuff relating to what we've discussed here then please feel free to send me a message and we can continue there .

The Scripture citations in brackets where I have not explicitly pasted the verse should be read and not glossed over as they are important and may provide clarity. Also reading the verses surrounding them may help too. I hope I aided in some fashion. God bless .

 

[dzheremi]

I'm not an Evangelical Protestant, so I couldn't get much out of the article, but the general situation reminds me of a man I used to know in our little Coptic Orthodox community where I used to live and was baptized. This man was over a decade older than I was at the time (early 30s), and he helped me a lot to understand the cultural side of the Coptic Orthodox Church (which can be quite a challenge if you're like me, and have no cultural, ethnic, or familial ties to Egypt or the wider MENA region). One time, we got to talking about marriage and dating and related issues, and he told me that during the time that he had lived in a particular island in the tropics (I don't remember which one, and it doesn't really matter anyway), for about a decade in the 1980s-1990s, he had been living a very fast and flashy life. He got into the automobile importation business (which as you might imagine, if you're on an island, can be a big and very lucrative business), and apparently made a lot of money, and got kind of entranced by the sorts of things that wealth can bring you in life. He began living far away from his faith, and had women in his life for as long as he had money, if you know what I mean. When he woke up from that and realized what a mess he had made of his life, he rededicated himself to living as a Christian, and since then put the money and the women and all that behind him entirely. So when I asked him how a convert like me is supposed to abide by the Church's rule that we do not marry outside of the communion (so, in practice, only Egyptians, Armenians, Ethiopians, Eritreans, and Syriac people are marriageable -- even if you yourself are not any of those things), he said "Why? The Church is a dating service to you? Not to me, and not to most of us! I will never leave Jesus for some woman! Not ever again!" That was just kind of his thing. He got very animated and yelled when he had a point to make. But it was a good one, after reflecting on it for years. Many of us will not find spouses, let alone 'the one' (if that even exists), so we would do good to meditate on why it is written that it is not good that man should be alone, and do our best to avoid falling into the traps of one who may find a person easier once marriage is not in the picture (like in our modern society in the USA, that values freedom over commitment), but as a result be truly alone because to do so, they unwittingly walked away from Jesus. Is Christ more important than finding a spouse? If yes, then this romantic singleness is not a problem, because we have Christ. If no, then the problem is not that we are lacking companions, but that we are lacking Christ, Who of course wants us to be with Him in all the phases of our lives. Ideally, we should/would have both, but living in a less-than-ideal world as we do, we should also make sure that if we only have one, that it's the right one!

 

[Sketcher]

Firstly as somebody who effectively grew up on the old internet (pre social media) you should be careful about linking Reddit here. The website is 99% a Godless cesspit of a website that is filled to the brim and overflowing with illicit sexual material (the word for the sexual material is censored here), people encouraging sin and an overt mockery & hatred towards Christians and our Lord God Himself. Even in the /r/Christianity sub there's Atheist moderators and any person who actively takes a stance against homosexuality or any such things is borderline spit up on. In my mind it's more of a cesspit than 4chan because they actively censor people and ban them for not following the modern secular 'morality' (arbitrary desires) or for saying normal Christian things.

One of the bigger surprises for those not in the know is that r/Christianity is not a Christian sub. If you want a Christian sub, there are other ones.

Secondly God bringing Adam his wife in Genesis is not an exception. God providentially brought Rebekah to Isaac (read Genesis 24), He united Boaz and Ruth, Esther's rise is filled with providence and etc. Furthermore we're told in Matthew 19:6 "So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate." and while yes this is speaking to the union of being united as one, it's still God who is doing the uniting and therefore His providence is not to be discounted at any stage of the process of the uniting and I don't think anyone could ever form a coherent argument against that. He has omniscient foreknowledge and will help you in not making a mistake both through His Word ("Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?" 2 Cor 6:14) and also through the power of The Holy Spirit. While there is no doubt that a person can choose a partner in accordance with their own will, God being sovereign means that He for many, or perhaps multitudes, will providentially unite a man and a woman not only for His purposes but for their own good (often simultaneously in accordance with the man/woman's will if it's rooted in Him) and because He is immensely loving.

A massive mistake that young Christians especially make is picking out one of those stories in the Bible, and believing that God is going to work that same way in your life. So many focus on being explicitly led like Abraham that they forget that God might be leading them like he led Joseph into Egypt, or Aquila from Rome, or the early church after Saul's persecution in Jerusalem. Life events they did not ask for but as they go things happen. Another massive mistake is putting dating as high on God's priority list as spreading the Gospel. Sometimes God just doesn't prioritize making matches with people.

Some of us are created for specific people that God has made (I personally believe I'm made/prepared for someone in this world) and I think you can see this not only in The Bible but also throughout history like with Martin Luther and his wife Katharine. Luther would not have been Luther without her and it would have been an extremely different reformation without the union of them both. This idea of 'the one' or a soul mate in our culture did not crop up out of nowhere as it has solid Biblical foundations. I don't know if you have met a couple who is aligned not only in desires, interests, passions, outlooks and beliefs, but also unified and one in immense love both for God and each other; but they really do exist. And it is beyond obvious that such a couple were soul mates and made to be together in the same way Eve was made to be with Adam. So that both of them would be able to exclaim with joy and gratitude to God the same way Adam did "This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh" (Gen 2:23). The World Biblical Commentary puts this succinctly and beautifully "In ecstasy man bursts into poetry on meeting his perfect helpmeet.". This is a mutual relationship where both man and woman were made to be with one another and both are each others helpmeets in different aspects of their lives. Which now with sin being in the world is more important than ever. Only God knows the hearts of humans and only He can unite people together who He knows will not only be a blessing for each other and edify each other, but therein, also others who will be impacted by them. So just the very nature of Biblical marriage implies God's providence and disproves the idea of 'the one' Theology being an exception for Adam and Eve.

Sometimes there's not just one. Elizabeth Elliot was widowed twice before her third and final husband.

 

[Miles]

Years ago, there was a book called "I Kissed Dating Goodbye". It seemed to have the double effect of influencing some Christians to rush into marriage and others to avoid relationships altogether.

Christian dating should have more in common with friendship at the beginning. In my opinion it should be low-pressure and hopefully pleasant, even if you decide to not see each other again. Asking somebody out isn't a marriage proposal and shouldn't be misinterpreted as such, but that's exactly what happens when you "kiss dating goodbye" and jump right into courtship. People get too serious too quickly with partners who aren't a good match for them, often resulting in a trail of heartbreak and divorce.

That was a long time ago, however, and not everybody was onboard with it even then. I won't generalize about the contemporary church as a whole when it comes to dating. Too much depends on the local congregation and individual preferences. The Bible showcases general principles for living, but it doesn't give us rules for dating. As such, I don't think it's the church's responsibility to be involved with our dating lives beyond encouraging us to stick to those general principles.

 

[Richard T]

Saw this post somewhere else on how the "Evangelical church is keeping more people single" It's a pretty good read:...

You might look at reading this free mini book though it was written a few decades ago it discusses God's will and how faith can help determine the outcome. https://events.rhema.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/LM45-Matter-of-a-Mate_2018.pdf Church's definitely can do more, but so can individual believers. When James says pray for one another to be healed, that you may be healed. I think the principle of helping others find spouses can help someone find a spouse themself. Seems to me your whole post is about helping churches find their way and certainly that is a blessing.

 

[ThisIsMe123]

Years ago, there was a book called "I Kissed Dating Goodbye". It seemed to have the double effect of influencing some Christians to rush into marriage and others to avoid relationships altogether.

Christian dating should have more in common with friendship at the beginning. In my opinion it should be low-pressure and hopefully pleasant, even if you decide to not see each other again. Asking somebody out isn't a marriage proposal and shouldn't be misinterpreted as such, but that's exactly what happens when you "kiss dating goodbye" and jump right into courtship. People get too serious too quickly with partners who aren't a good match for them, often resulting in a trail of heartbreak and divorce.

That was a long time ago, however, and not everybody was onboard with it even then. I won't generalize about the contemporary church as a whole when it comes to dating. Too much depends on the local congregation and individual preferences. The Bible showcases general principles for living, but it doesn't give us rules for dating. As such, I don't think it's the church's responsibility to be involved with our dating lives beyond encouraging us to stick to those general principles.

THere had been non-denominational churches that had "singles ministries", where people would gather together for Bible study,and then go to some funciton afterwards. And would have outside of the church group gatherings.

It would be a mix of different religions as well, as it was singles coming from various areas of the city once they caught word of its existence, because unattached people in their own churches weren't part of their demographic.

There were some situations I'd hear where a woman would say, "We have singles men in our group, but...none that I would date", and I'd hear men get irritated when a woman in their group brought in an "outsider" (new boyfriend) to her church. lol

When I was in my mid-20s, and seeking a Christian wife, I was quite aghast at the amount of already divorced 20-somethings in these groups. It was a deal breaker for me...at least at that age.

Typically though, these groups tend to fizzle out after a couple of years due to lack of interest or people have found someone in the group to date, and they'd not be see again in the group at least. The one I participated in, was going pretty strong for a while...if you go back to the churches website now, not a single hint of single groups/ministries. Just focus on family "men's only" groups, and children functions mostly. All family focused pretty much.

Have you been familiar with singles groups? Ever been a participant.

 

[Miles]

THere had been non-denominational churches that had "singles ministries", where people would gather together for Bible study,and then go to some funciton afterwards. And would have outside of the church group gatherings.

It would be a mix of different religions as well, as it was singles coming from various areas of the city once they caught word of its existence, because unattached people in their own churches weren't part of their demographic.

There were some situations I'd hear where a woman would say, "We have singles men in our group, but...none that I would date", and I'd hear men get irritated when a woman in their group brought in an "outsider" (new boyfriend) to her church. lol

When I was in my mid-20s, and seeking a Christian wife, I was quite aghast at the amount of already divorced 20-somethings in these groups. It was a deal breaker for me...at least at that age.

Typically though, these groups tend to fizzle out after a couple of years due to lack of interest or people have found someone in the group to date, and they'd not be see again in the group at least. The one I participated in, was going pretty strong for a while...if you go back to the churches website now, not a single hint of single groups/ministries. Just focus on family "men's only" groups, and children functions mostly. All family focused pretty much.

Have you been familiar with singles groups? Ever been a participant.

I participated in Christian singles groups for a while. Mostly non-denominational, with a mixture of denominations represented, but not other religions unless they were invited by a significant other.

Most women didn't date within the group, but some would bring their "missionary date" atheist boyfriends to meetings. It was kind of annoying, but on the other hand I'm not interested in women who "missionary date". That's their problem, not mine.

Meeting young divorcees wasn't common for me in real life, unlike most of the women I saw on dating sites. Now that I'm middle aged, it's more common to meet divorced women, but most of the single Christian women I meet are somehow still unmarried. It could be that my subconscious is mentally filtering out divorcees, but I think it has more to do with my personality and the kind of women I naturally click with. Which isn't to say that I don't click with some divorced women. I do, but that doesn't happen as often.

Speaking of which, I'm not a man who wears his heart on his sleeve in public. That can make it harder to get to know women on more than a superficial level in a singles group dynamic. I keep up socially, but it's too impersonal for me. When meeting in a less contrived situation, more of my personality shines through. In situations like that, the conversations flow freely and I'm happy to talk for hours on end. Thoughts, feelings, you name it.

Over time, I found that I prefer women who aren't actively involved with Church singles groups. They tend to be more interesting and pleasant to be around, in my experience. Partly for the reasons mentioned above. For what it's worth, I'm arguably more pleasant and interesting myself when I live my life outside of the confines of a singles group. Although I may be single, my mindset is more like that of a married man.

I don't mind there being groups for men and groups for women. At least that way I'm on equal footing with other men, and likewise the single women are on equal footing with their married counterparts. Singles groups can be (but aren't always) like sitting at the kid's table, which I think does a disservice to singles of both sexes, but especially men. It's important for a woman to respect her man for the man that he is, rather than perceive him as a big kid.

Families doing family things doesn't bother me. There's a place for that. I just think believers should be treated equally regardless of marital status.

 

[ThisIsMe123]

I participated in Christian singles groups for a while. Mostly non-denominational, with a mixture of denominations represented, but not other religions unless they were invited by a significant other.

Most women didn't date within the group, but some would bring their "missionary date" atheist boyfriends to meetings. It was kind of annoying, but on the other hand I'm not interested in women who "missionary date". That's their problem, not mine.

Meeting young divorcees wasn't common for me in real life, unlike most of the women I saw on dating sites. Now that I'm middle aged, it's more common to meet divorced women, but most of the single Christian women I meet are somehow still unmarried. It could be that my subconscious is mentally filtering out divorcees, but I think it has more to do with my personality and the kind of women I naturally click with. Which isn't to say that I don't click with some divorced women. I do, but that doesn't happen as often.

Speaking of which, I'm not a man who wears his heart on his sleeve in public. That can make it harder to get to know women on more than a superficial level in a singles group dynamic. I keep up socially, but it's too impersonal for me. When meeting in a less contrived situation, more of my personality shines through. In situations like that, the conversations flow freely and I'm happy to talk for hours on end. Thoughts, feelings, you name it.

Over time, I found that I prefer women who aren't actively involved with Church singles groups. They tend to be more interesting and pleasant to be around, in my experience. Partly for the reasons mentioned above. For what it's worth, I'm arguably more pleasant and interesting myself when I live my life outside of the confines of a singles group. Although I may be single, my mindset is more like that of a married man.

I don't mind there being groups for men and groups for women. At least that way I'm on equal footing with other men, and likewise the single women are on equal footing with their married counterparts. Singles groups can be (but aren't always) like sitting at the kid's table, which I think does a disservice to singles of both sexes, but especially men. It's important for a woman to respect her man for the man that he is, rather than perceive him as a big kid.

Families doing family things doesn't bother me. There's a place for that. I just think believers should be treated equally regardless of marital status.

Miles -

I was going to start a new post, but since this this last post of yours is recent (yesterday), I figured I'd address this. I had particpating in a discussion online elsewhere regarding this very thing...Christian dating and the struggles involved.

This gentleman made a very astute observation when it comes to these social gatherings for singles at a church:

The focus regarding ones social awkwardness in relation to their devoutness. The more devout the individual, the more socially awkward they tended to be because these types tend to find it hard to fit in elsewhere, and following the rules of the church, well, they only have that to go on.
But in my observation, for gen X and younger, being active in the faith is a counterculture, and a counterculture disproportionally attracts unconventional types.
Overthinkers, hopeless romantics, insecure melancholics, bookshy types, neurodivergent personalities. People who find it hard to fit in elsewhere and like the comfort of rules and the idea of being rewarded for being Virtuous (following the rules). Their parents often had the same traits or encouraged them.

Compounding this, the many kids raised in the faith who do have good social skills, comfort around the opposite sex and an active social life through adolescence, they are somewhat more likely to drift away from the devout side of the church. Or more charitably perhaps, they're more likely to pair off early or easily meet romantic partners organically. So you don't see them in Christian matchmaking situations.

I was like "Wow". When I read the "hopeless romantics/insecure melancholics" part, I thought of your comment about how you DON'T wear your heart on your sleeve.

And yes, I've seen my share of these awkward types at these in-person singles ministries." It's hard to put into words how they can be, without sounding too insulting though.

 

[Miles]

Miles -

I was going to start a new post, but since this this last post of yours is recent (yesterday), I figured I'd address this. I had particpating in a discussion online elsewhere regarding this very thing...Christian dating and the struggles involved.

This gentleman made a very astute observation when it comes to these social gatherings for singles at a church:

The focus regarding ones social awkwardness in relation to their devoutness. The more devout the individual, the more socially awkward they tended to be because these types tend to find it hard to fit in elsewhere, and following the rules of the church, well, they only have that to go on.
But in my observation, for gen X and younger, being active in the faith is a counterculture, and a counterculture disproportionally attracts unconventional types.
Overthinkers, hopeless romantics, insecure melancholics, bookshy types, neurodivergent personalities. People who find it hard to fit in elsewhere and like the comfort of rules and the idea of being rewarded for being Virtuous (following the rules). Their parents often had the same traits or encouraged them.

Compounding this, the many kids raised in the faith who do have good social skills, comfort around the opposite sex and an active social life through adolescence, they are somewhat more likely to drift away from the devout side of the church. Or more charitably perhaps, they're more likely to pair off early or easily meet romantic partners organically. So you don't see them in Christian matchmaking situations.

I was like "Wow". When I read the "hopeless romantics/insecure melancholics" part, I thought of your comment about how you DON'T wear your heart on your sleeve.

And yes, I've seen my share of these awkward types at these in-person singles ministries." It's hard to put into words how they can be, without sounding too insulting though.

Singles ministries can work great for fellowship, if not necessarily for finding a spouse. It can happen though, and when it does those apparently awkward types tend to lose their awkwardness. At least from what I've seen. Maybe because there's no more pressure to find a partner. The world needs all kinds of people, and I'd rather not psychoanalyze them. Which could easily come across as insulting, like you said, which would be unfair.

Meeting women organically does work better for me, but it's still rare to find someone who shares my values in the wild. I prefer to live in a way that's true to myself and true to what I consider important. If she likes that, great. If not, at least my heart will be somewhat guarded. Not wearing my heart on my sleeve has more to do with having boundaries and respecting the boundaries of others. I admire that when I see it in other people. When around folks who are similar in this regard, we can simply be. Without most of the drama and even pretense that can ironically come from wearing one's heart on one's sleeve.

 

[ZephBonkerer]

When I was in my mid-20s, and seeking a Christian wife, I was quite aghast at the amount of already divorced 20-somethings in these groups. It was a deal breaker for me...at least at that age.

Typically though, these groups tend to fizzle out after a couple of years due to lack of interest or people have found someone in the group to date, and they'd not be see again in the group at least. The one I participated in, was going pretty strong for a while...if you go back to the churches website now, not a single hint of single groups/ministries. Just focus on family "men's only" groups, and children functions mostly. All family focused pretty much.

Have you been familiar with singles groups? Ever been a participant.

In my experience, church assemblies are not good dating pools. I was at an assembly where there were plenty of young single women, but Purity Culture was very much prevalent there. At my assembly, singles were encouraged to "wait on the Lord".

This was during the 2000's - I came to a saving faith in Jesus in September 2000 (I was 23 then). Although there was a time when not dating would have been a wise move for me, it made less sense as time went on.

Many of the young women at my assembly grew up in a church. While I cannot be certain of this, they may have been a bit weary of dating someone who didn't grow up in a church. Also, to be fair: I had a lot to learn about dealing with women in those days.

 

[ThisIsMe123]

In my experience, church assemblies are not good dating pools. I was at an assembly where there were plenty of young single women, but Purity Culture was very much prevalent there. At my assembly, singles were encouraged to "wait on the Lord".

This was during the 2000's - I came to a saving faith in Jesus in September 2000 (I was 23 then). Although there was a time when not dating would have been a wise move for me, it made less sense as time went on.

Many of the young women at my assembly grew up in a church. While I cannot be certain of this, they may have been a bit weary of dating someone who didn't grow up in a church. Also, to be fair: I had a lot to learn about dealing with women in those days.

Yeah, when it comes to finding a partner, a lot of Christian men and women usually found someone organically, outside of Christian/Church circles. Usually it would be someone not of their religion or denomination...I knew a woman that gave up her current church to marry outside of her church in her now spouses' church because her previous church demanded she raise their children in that religion. So she took the path of least resistance.

But a lot put personality, common interests, aligned in values, kindness, etc...basically personality traits in a person over religion/Christianity. I mean, you could marry a Christian, but if they lack everything else in a quality partner, then that's out the door. Some marry a simple believer that treats them well, and that's that. Some are turned off by Bible-beaters...so they want someone that's kind of at their level of Christianity. I would see on dating profiles that they say they are Christian, but not of the Bible-beating/Christian bumper sticker on car variety (as a means to not scare anyone away that's reading their profile, lol)

I remember during the time you described where I was going to said non-denominational singles Bible study (had an hour commute to this event, because where were no single people in my age bracket where I live...and I was on Yahoo Personals at the same time (remember Yahoo Personals? lol)....and I saw this woman that was Christian seeking the same on there. I mentioned the church by name where I went to meet these other singles (no singles where I live)...she said she did go there, but she thought there were too many socially awkward types, maybe not attractive enough...some were kind of...unkempt as I remember.... that turned her off.
They made her uncomfortable....thus she would rather do online dating.

Yeah "purity" culture...I actually went on a date with a woman I met at these assemblies...and she told me she didn't believe in kissing before marriage. Even as a Christian I thought this was odd. So it obviously didn't work out and I told her that she'd be hard press to find a man that'd be okay with no affection while dating. I thought this was cause for an even deeper issue with people that believe this.

I ran this by other Christian friends, and they too thought this was very odd. Then I thought in hindsight, "ah, purity culture".

Has purity culture now waned at this time? I"ve read articles on how damaging this was.

Tainted Love: Reckoning with the Damage of Purity Culture — The Revealer

Could conservative Christian teachings about sex cause physiological and psychological problems that last into adulthood?

therevealer.org

I typically steer clear of these types, because they fear of what COULD happen...and this can go for anything outside of just dating. SOme have broken away from their prospective churches that were obsessed with this.

 

[TheLastGeek]

In my experience, church assemblies are not good dating pools. I was at an assembly where there were plenty of young single women, but Purity Culture was very much prevalent there. At my assembly, singles were encouraged to "wait on the Lord".

Wait... for what exactly? My understanding is that "waiting" and the Purity movement was about not having sex before marriage, not avoiding dating.

 

[TheLastGeek]

From the article you posted:
“Purity culture” refers to conservative Christian teachings designed for teenagers that tells them sex outside of marriage is a uniquely bad sin and that, for the sake of their relationship with God and their future spouse, they must abstain from sex until marriage."

How is this anything but the truth?

 

[ThisIsMe123]

Wait... for what exactly? My understanding is that "waiting" and the Purity movement was about not having sex before marriage, not avoiding dating.

Actually. "No dating allowed" somehow cropped up in Christian circles as if dating was a bad thing.

That's why the author of "How I kissed dating good bye" regretted what he wrote.

That it led to sex outside of marriage, even if they were abstaining.

Kind of like in the movie Footloose where dancing wasn't allowed, because it could lead to temptation of sex.

And also the no kissing before marriage.

You can do all of this and still abstain from sex.

 

[TheLastGeek]

Actually. "No dating allowed" somehow cropped up in Christian circles as if dating was a bad thing.

That's why the author of "How I kissed dating good bye" regretted what he wrote.

That it led to sex outside of marriage, even if they were abstaining.

Kind of like in the movie Footloose where dancing wasn't allowed, because it could lead to temptation of sex.

And also the no kissing before marriage.

You can do all of this and still abstain from sex.

I think some concepts were sort of taken way too far, or out of context, in far too many situations. These were the years when casual dating and hooking up were prevalent, teen pregnancies and STD's were soaring. That was the sort of "dating" that I think many churches were trying to warn against. But rather than encourage healthy interactions and relationships for young singles, they just went wildly in the other direction sometimes. Not all the time. Not everyone went crazy with this exaggerated, puritanical mindset.

Kissing IS sexual, and can lead to other things very easily and very quickly, especially for teenagers. Dancing can be the same way. It's not so much about the action itself, as it is about the self control, wisdom, and maturity of the people involved. Not many teenagers are paragons of these virtues lol. That said, I don't think teenagers should be discouraged from dating or developing relationships with the opposite sex or experiencing all the very natural emotions and feelings that come with growing up. But nor do I think they should be encouraged to spend lots of time alone, or be without any accountability or oversight by trusted adults.

Anywho, my point was that I'm wondering why "waiting for the Lord" meant that Zeph in particular, could not find someone to date. Were the girls told they just weren't allowed to date?

 

[ZephBonkerer]

Anywho, my point was that I'm wondering why "waiting for the Lord" meant that Zeph in particular, could not find someone to date. Were the girls told they just weren't allowed to date?

Perhaps some of my story will help put things in context:

I came to a saving faith in Jesus in September 2000 - at the time I lived in San Jose, CA. Although intelligent, in those days I was very socially awkward. In those early days as a Christian, I set dating aside - and that was a very wise move at the time. To be fair, I had a lot to figure out. About a year later a lot of that social awkwardness was going away and I was developing some close friendships, mostly with other guys.

In my assembly, while there were no formal prohibitions against dating, there were some things that really set the tone:

One of my friends started dating one of the daughters of an elder at our assembly. When that relationship fizzled out, he stopped coming and we didn't see him again. Some of us took that as a cautionary tale. That is, if you start seeing someone and the relationship doesn't work out, it could be a huge problem in that entire assembly. For some of these people, church is their primary social circle. I was one of those people myself.

Around 2004 or so, we were at an elder's house for some get together. As it got late in the evening, I walked a girl to her car. We got to talking about various things. Then about 15 minutes later I come back. The elder admonished me: "When you walk a girl to her car, just walk her to the car, and come straight back," then something about the "appearance of evil". I wasn't entirely certain what appearance of evil he was referring to, but I just went along with it.

In the Summer 2005, my roommates and I had some people over at my place on a Saturday night. We drank beer, played poker, some general goof-offery. Word got around of this get-together and someone (an older lady, not anyone in leadership) cited the "appearance of evil" regarding the get together. He was pretty irked by it, being all "what appearance of evil? - does she think we are shooting an X rated flick or something!?" At the time, I thought it was funny - but in retrospect I think she was speaking out of personal bias. Would anyone have cited "the appearance of evil" if it involved retirees in their 60s and took place earlier in the day?

I met a girl in 2006 and married her in 2007. She is now my soon-to-be-ex-wife as we began divorce proceedings in 2021. So I found myself essentially single for the first time since 2006. Although I am back to having a social circle with mixed group, this time my friends are not from any church assembly. We are in a salsa / bachata dancing group which by its very nature encourages opposite sex interaction. I also have made some close female friends here in ways I didn't really experience earlier in life. Socially, it probably helps that I am now in Ohio and not Silicon Valley where young people who are building their careers often have little social life to speak of.

 

[ThisIsMe123]

Perhaps some of my story will help put things in context:

I came to a saving faith in Jesus in September 2000 - at the time I lived in San Jose, CA. Although intelligent, in those days I was very socially awkward. In those early days as a Christian, I set dating aside - and that was a very wise move at the time. To be fair, I had a lot to figure out. About a year later a lot of that social awkwardness was going away and I was developing some close friendships, mostly with other guys.

In my assembly, while there were no formal prohibitions against dating, there were some things that really set the tone:

One of my friends started dating one of the daughters of an elder at our assembly. When that relationship fizzled out, he stopped coming and we didn't see him again. Some of us took that as a cautionary tale. That is, if you start seeing someone and the relationship doesn't work out, it could be a huge problem in that entire assembly. For some of these people, church is their primary social circle. I was one of those people myself.

Around 2004 or so, we were at an elder's house for some get together. As it got late in the evening, I walked a girl to her car. We got to talking about various things. Then about 15 minutes later I come back. The elder admonished me: "When you walk a girl to her car, just walk her to the car, and come straight back," then something about the "appearance of evil". I wasn't entirely certain what appearance of evil he was referring to, but I just went along with it.

In the Summer 2005, my roommates and I had some people over at my place on a Saturday night. We drank beer, played poker, some general goof-offery. Word got around of this get-together and someone (an older lady, not anyone in leadership) cited the "appearance of evil" regarding the get together. He was pretty irked by it, being all "what appearance of evil? - does she think we are shooting an X rated flick or something!?" At the time, I thought it was funny - but in retrospect I think she was speaking out of personal bias. Would anyone have cited "the appearance of evil" if it involved retirees in their 60s and took place earlier in the day?

I met a girl in 2006 and married her in 2007. She is now my soon-to-be-ex-wife as we began divorce proceedings in 2021. So I found myself essentially single for the first time since 2006. Although I am back to having a social circle with mixed group, this time my friends are not from any church assembly. We are in a salsa / bachata dancing group which by its very nature encourages opposite sex interaction. I also have made some close female friends here in ways I didn't really experience earlier in life. Socially, it probably helps that I am now in Ohio and not Silicon Valley where young people who are building their careers often have little social life to speak of.

This sounds like the typical evolution of those who wind up those "cautionary" tales of stepping from their church social circles. The usual story is kid is raised Christian, kid is in high school goes with family to church routinely, kid gets accepted to a college, he goes off into the world and college and he's like you, playing poker, (with me its board games with friends, lol), salsa or whatever (just making a point)...you know, normal recreation activities that have the "appearance of evil"

Those people who cite "the appearance of evil" are the Karens of the Christian community with nothing else better to do with their lives than to mind their own business.

I dated a woman from North Dakota who said her and her family are glad to be away from that backwater town where the church go-ers were always up in their business/lives...but that's small town mentality for you....shoot, she even mentioned to me that she heard through the grape vine on the internet about how their lives are sometimes echoed back miles away to N.D. lol

Shoot, salsa/bachata might be misconstrued by busy-body Christians as overtly sexual in nature, with the hips moving and the "erotic" dance moves.

Believe you me, I immediately dissociate myself with those "appearance of evil" types...with this Halloween coming up, same situation. People get a little nuts believing that trick or treating in costumes has an "appearance of evil"...and shut their doors to kids.

Funny, those years your mentioned were the years where I live where singles Bible study groups were kind of prevalent. After church services, people would gather for singles Bible study, and then go out to eat after or do some recreational activity. These singles groups would eventually fizzle out after a couple of years. Losing popularity.

Oh, I remember in the 1980s how Dungeons and Dragons was demonized.

 

[DragonFox91]

The church has no power over which God doesn't ordain