The BIRTH of Faith....The Lords unilateral regenerating of Lydia's heart.

[moonbeam]

The BIRTH of Faith....The Lords unilateral regenerating of Lydia's heart.

13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither. 14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. 15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us...(Acts 16:13-15)


Where the text reads "whose heart the Lord opened" we have a clear statement of a work/action attributed directly to God....the nature of that particular work/action of God is the circumcision of the heart...of Lydia's heart.

Where the text reads "that she attended" we have a clear statement of the effect of that personal work/action of God.

These passages of scripture provide clear insight into the realm of the Spirits activities at the crucial point.....of the Birth (of Faith)

Lydia's "Faith".....was the direct result of a work/action of God.

Lydia's "Faith"......was a gift from God (Eph 2:8)

Lydia was a recipient of Gods Grace (John 1:12-13)

 

[moonbeam]

The BIRTH of Faith....The Lords unilateral regenerating of Lydia's heart.

13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither. 14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. 15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us...(Acts 16:13-15)


Where the text reads "whose heart the Lord opened" we have a clear statement of a work/action attributed directly to God....the nature of that particular work/action of God is the circumcision of the heart...of Lydia's heart.

Where the text reads "that she attended" we have a clear statement of the effect of that personal work/action of God.

These passages of scripture provide clear insight into the realm of the Spirits activities at the crucial point.....of the Birth (of Faith)

Lydia's "Faith".....was the direct result of a work/action of God.

Lydia's "Faith"......was a gift from God (Eph 2:8)

Lydia was a recipient of Gods Grace (John 1:12-13)

In addition to the above..

Where the text reads "whose heart the Lord opened" we have indication that this particular work/action by God of opening Lydias heart to embrace the Gospel is an extraordinary manifestation of Gods Grace......something wholly different, separate, and in addition to Gods Providential Grace which He extends to all His creatures universally.

That this particular work/action of God in opening up Lydia's heart is a manifestation of extraordinary grace is attested to by this extraordinary prayer of Jesus, to the Father "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine." (John 17:9)

There can be no doubt Lydia was one of "them" that Jesus prayed for ... in contradistinction to the other person's intimated in the word "world" [those for whom the Lord does not petition the Father]


Lydia was a recipient of the Lords grace...Lydia recieved....what Lydia was GIVEN....."But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12-13)

Lydia...predestined by God...to be chosen of God...to an imperishable inheritance...in Christ Jesus our Lord...HALLELUJAH !

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Gordon look at this verse ...

not forknowledge.... God chose out of

 

[Van]

This thread attempts to equate "regeneration" with "opening the heart." But there is not logical connection, no verse, nothing. God reveals Himself, and therefore our hearts are opened by that revelation. Lydia was a believer in God, and therefore her heart was open to the One sent by God. Whoever has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

So is the action of "opening her heart" directly attributable to God? Yes. To regeneration? Nope

John 17:9 is non-germane, Jesus is praying for His Apostles, the 11 because Judas was lost. Later in the chapter, He does indeed pray for Lydia, when He says I pray those who believe in Me through their message, so Lydia's heart was opened through the message of Christ's Apostles, which included Paul at the time of Lydia's salvation. Through the message, not through Irresistible Grace.

Lydia had received Him before she was given the right to become a child of God, before she was spiritually placed in Christ and reborn, by the will of God.

 

[jmacvols]

The BIRTH of Faith....The Lords unilateral regenerating of Lydia's heart.

13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither. 14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. 15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us...(Acts 16:13-15)


Where the text reads "whose heart the Lord opened" we have a clear statement of a work/action attributed directly to God....the nature of that particular work/action of God is the circumcision of the heart...of Lydia's heart.

Where the text reads "that she attended" we have a clear statement of the effect of that personal work/action of God.

These passages of scripture provide clear insight into the realm of the Spirits activities at the crucial point.....of the Birth (of Faith)

Lydia's "Faith".....was the direct result of a work/action of God.

Lydia's "Faith"......was a gift from God (Eph 2:8)

Lydia was a recipient of Gods Grace (John 1:12-13)

The context says the Lord opened her heart, but how? Nothing in the context remotely suggests that this "opening" was done by some direct Divine intervention. Yet the context does say that Paul preached to her, she heard the things spoken by Paul. So the Lord did not directly open her heart, the Lord indirectly opened her heart thru the spoken gospel word. The spoken gospel created in her a receptive heart and she obeyed the gospel by being baptized. This is a figure of speech known as a metonymy. So the Lord did not directly open her heart, He indirectly arranged that by others [Paul's preaching] her heart be opened.
Example; Nathan said that David had killed Uriah by the sword, 2 Sam 12:9. David did not directly kill Uriah, but he indirectly killed him by making the arrrangements so that Uriah be killed by others in battle. So David is said to have done something directly, but in reality, he only made arrangements for others to kill Uriah.

 

[BBAS 64]

Good Day,

What has always struck me about that passage was there were "women" there, and God only opened one "woman's" heart.

Act 16:13 And on the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to the riverside, where we supposed there was a place of prayer, and we sat down and spoke to the women who had come together.
Act 16:14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.

Why did he not open them all?

in Him,

Bill

 

[A Brother In Christ]

The context says the Lord opened her heart, but how? Nothing in the context remotely suggests that this "opening" was done by some direct Divine intervention. Yet the context does say that Paul preached to her, she heard the things spoken by Paul. So the Lord did not directly open her heart, the Lord indirectly opened her heart thru the spoken gospel word. The spoken gospel created in her a receptive heart and she obeyed the gospel by being baptized. This is a figure of speech known as a metonymy. So the Lord did not directly open her heart, He indirectly arranged that by others [Paul's preaching] her heart be opened.
Example; Nathan said that David had killed Uriah by the sword, 2 Sam 12:9. David did not directly kill Uriah, but he indirectly killed him by making the arrrangements so that Uriah be killed by others in battle. So David is said to have done something directly, but in reality, he only made arrangements for others to kill Uriah.

john 16:7-11
and
2 cor 4:3-6

 

[A Brother In Christ]

[

Good Day,

What has always struck me about that passage was there were "women" there, and God only opened one "woman's" heart.

Act 16:13 And on the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to the riverside, where we supposed there was a place of prayer, and we sat down and spoke to the women who had come together.
Act 16:14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.

Why did he not open them all?

in Him,

Bill

romans 9, matt 11:20-24

 

[moonbeam]

This thread attempts to equate "regeneration" with "opening the heart." But there is not logical connection, no verse, nothing.

The connection between regeneration and Gods work/action of opening Lydia's heart...is made obvious by the result [Lydia's Faith]

The fact that Gods work/action of opening Lydia's heart equates with regeneration; and is synonymous with circumcision of the heart is reinforced by these scripture.

And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. (Deu 30:6)

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. (Rom 2:29)

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. (Eze 36:26)

In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (Col 2:11)

God reveals Himself, and therefore our hearts are opened by that revelation. Lydia was a believer in God, and therefore her heart was open to the One sent by God. Whoever has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

Lydia spiritual state before the direct work/action of God in opening her heart was no different from any other practicing Jew of her time, then or now....she was an enemy of Christ, a child of wrath like any other person..."Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience" (Eph 2:2)

For every person at any point in time there are only two spiritual states or realities that exist before the Father...in Christ or outside Christ...Lydia was outside of Christ


You attempt to put Lydia "onside" with God.....while she was in fact offside......while she is an enemy of God (by not being in Christ) .... sorry but that dog won't hunt.

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father:(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. (1 Joh 2:22-23)

That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. (Joh 5:23)

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. (1 Joh 4:2-3)


Untill we are regenerated by a direct unilateral work/action of God..like Lydia was..we can not hear and learn of the Father [so as to come to Christ].

So is the action of "opening her heart" directly attributable to God? Yes. To regeneration? Nope

That regeneration is what is envisioned where scripture states "whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended" is made obvious by......"But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." (Rom 2:29)

John 17:9 is non-germane, Jesus is praying for His Apostles, the 11 because Judas was lost. Later in the chapter, He does indeed pray for Lydia, when He says I pray those who believe in Me through their message, so Lydia's heart was opened through the message of Christ's Apostles, which included Paul at the time of Lydia's salvation. Through the message, not through Irresistible Grace.

That Christ makes a distinction between who He prays for and who He dosn't pray for is stated in scripture (Joh 17:9)....Jesus statement highlights the distinction between the extraordinary manifestation of grace (that opened Lydia's heart) and the ordinary providential grace the Father extends to those who Christ does not pray for.

Lydia's actual believing...her actual "Faith"....is the direct result of Gods unilateral regeneration as scripture indicates "whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended" (Act 16:14)

Lydia had received Him before she was given the right to become a child of God, before she was spiritually placed in Christ and reborn, by the will of God.

Lydia was a recipient of the Lords grace...Lydia recieved....what Lydia was GIVEN....."But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12-13)

Lydia...predestined by God...to be chosen of God...to an imperishable inheritance...in Christ Jesus our Lord...HALLELUJAH !

 

[moonbeam]

The context says the Lord opened her heart, but how? Nothing in the context remotely suggests that this "opening" was done by some direct Divine intervention.

You have inexplicably, though conveniently, overlooked this unequivocal statement of fact recorded in scripture "whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended"....the Lord is clearly portrayed as the person "doing" the work/action of opening Lydia's heart.

The scripture is worded in such a fashion that a natural and correct inference can, and should be drawn....that being that Lydia was not responsible for the work/action required to achieve the opening of her heart (that work/action being directly attributed to the Lord)

Yet the context does say that Paul preached to her, she heard the things spoken by Paul.

Off course she "heard us" (Act 16:14) this is the natural and expected result of listening to another person speak....at least for someone whose ears are not plugged up with wax.

The unique and specific reason "that she attended"..."unto the things spoken of Paul" is directly ascribed and attributed to the personal work/action of God "whose heart the Lord opened"

So the Lord did not directly open her heart, the Lord indirectly opened her heart thru the spoken gospel word.

No.....the Lord DIRECTLY opened Lydia's heart....thats what scripture states explicitly, unequivocally.

You refuse to accept this obvious fact of scripture "whose heart the Lord opened"....because of its consequences to your theology.

The spoken gospel created in her a receptive heart and she obeyed the gospel by being baptized.

God did create in Lydia a receptive heart "that she attended"....He "created" a new heart...a circumcised heart...a regenerated heart.

And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. (Deu 30:6)

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. (Rom 2:29)

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. (Eze 36:26)

In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (Col 2:11)

This is a figure of speech known as a metonymy.

WRONG........."whose heart the Lord opened" is a figure of speech known as a verifiable FACT.

So the Lord did not directly open her heart, He indirectly arranged that by others [Paul's preaching] her heart be opened.
Example; Nathan said that David had killed Uriah by the sword, 2 Sam 12:9. David did not directly kill Uriah, but he indirectly killed him by making the arrrangements so that Uriah be killed by others in battle. So David is said to have done something directly, but in reality, he only made arrangements for others to kill Uriah.

Who killed Uriah?...what sayeth the Prophet of God to David "thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword" (2 Sam 12:9)

Answer....David.

You were demonstrating to me the difference between a metonymy and a "verifiable FACT" ?

 

[moonbeam]

Good Day,

What has always struck me about that passage was there were "women" there, and God only opened one "woman's" heart.

Act 16:13 And on the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to the riverside, where we supposed there was a place of prayer, and we sat down and spoke to the women who had come together.
Act 16:14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.

Why did he not open them all?

in Him,

Bill

Why did he not open them all?

Tough question that Bill ....as I see it pilgrim there ain't but two rational possibilities to unravel that there mystery...either

The other women in the group who worshiped God (like Lydia) never had their hearts opened because?

(1)..Their hearing aids went flat on them poor ladies and they couldn't hear the talking properly with everyting all fuddled and muddled up...and what not.
OR..
(2)... The Lord....He just plum didn't want to.


What do I think?.....I think plum.....plum didn't want to.

 

[Van]

In post #6, an assertion is made that the text indicates the Lord did not open the heart of any other of the women present when the Lord opened Lydia's heart. We know the effect of the gospel upon Lydia, but the Word is silent concerning the others. To assert some believed or none believed is an argument from silence.

In post #9, an attempt is made to equate "circumcision of the heart" with "opening the heart." But there is no logical connection and no verse that equates the two. When we undergo the circumcision of Christ, that refers to regeneration. Therefore a man is a Jew, i.e. a member of spiritual Israel, when he or she has undergone the circumcision of the heart, Romans 2:29. What is obvious is that opening her heart does not refer to circumcision of the heart. Rather opening of her heart refers to the impact of God's revelation, not His regeneration.

Lydia was given the right to become a Jew on the inside, a born again believer, after she received the gospel of Christ. Note, opening of the heart to respond to the gospel message refers to a person who has accepted God's word, believes in God and is seeking Christ. Thus the Lord has (through His revelation) opened their heart to respond to the message.

In post #10, an effort is made to say the Lord could not open a person's heart by providing His revelation, as if His Word has no power to directly change a person. But unless a person has heard and learned from the Father, will they come to Christ? So hearing and learning from the Father "opens the heart to repond to the gospel message.

Also in Post #9, an attempt is made to equate being outside of Christ, in an unregenerate state with total spiritual inability. But since total spiritual inability is demonstrated false by Matthew 23:13, and Matthew 13:20-22, the assertion has no merit.

So if we believe in God and are seeking Christ, our heart has been opened by the Lord, for we have heard and learned from the Father, and therefore the Lord has opened our heart to respond to the gospel. Opening of our hearts to receive the message does not equate to regeneration which occurs after we have received the message John 1:12-13.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Why did he not open them all?

Tough question that Bill ....as I see it pilgrim there ain't but two rational possibilities to unravel that there mystery...either

The other women in the group who worshiped God (like Lydia) never had their hearts opened because?

(1)..Their hearing aids went flat on them poor ladies and they couldn't hear the talking properly with everyting all fuddled and muddled up...and what not.
OR..
(2)... The Lord....He just plum didn't want to.


What do I think?.....I think plum.....plum didn't want to.

2 cor 4:3-6 is the verse you are looking for

 

[moonbeam]

In post #6, an assertion is made that the text indicates the Lord did not open the heart of any other of the women present when the Lord opened Lydia's heart. We know the effect of the gospel upon Lydia, but the Word is silent concerning the others. To assert some believed or none believed is an argument from silence.

Scripture mentions a group of women that were gathered together by the river for religious observance...One member of that group, Lydia, has her heart opened directly by God....no mention is made of any other woman from that group experiencing similar effects.

Hence we have a legitimate distinction drawn between Lydia...and the group of women.

A similar distinction is established in the case of Saul's conversion on the Damascus road; where we see Saul accompanied by a group of like minded men, yet Saul is singled out in particular for the Lord's intervention and attention...not the others...in fact the Lord kept them all in the dark (they didn't know what was happening)

This is a clear indication, and a solid reason, to believe that Lydia's experience of having her heart opened directly by the Lord was a unique and particular event....one not shared by any other woman of her group.

Van...Your objections are unfounded.

In post #9, an attempt is made to equate "circumcision of the heart" with "opening the heart." But there is no logical connection and no verse that equates the two. When we undergo the circumcision of Christ, that refers to regeneration. Therefore a man is a Jew, i.e. a member of spiritual Israel, when he or she has undergone the circumcision of the heart, Romans 2:29. What is obvious is that opening her heart does not refer to circumcision of the heart. Rather opening of her heart refers to the impact of God's revelation, not His regeneration.

"whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended"...the text clearly states that Lydia's heart was opened directly by God, that direct work/action causing an effect/result, that effect being Faith in Christ...Faith in Christ is what identifies you as a member of Spiritual Israel...Faith in Christ is the evidence that your heart has been/is circumcised.

Faith in Christ is what Lydia "developed" after her heart was opened directly by God.

That the direct opening by God of Lydia's heart is synonomous with, and equates to, circumcision of the heart as well as regeneration, is made obvious by the effect of that divine work of opening...namely FAITH...which is the mark of spiritual circucumsion (heart circumcision)

The connection between Gods opening of Lydias heart and regeneration/circumcision of the heart is valid and established by these scriptures.

And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. (Deu 30:6)

note: It is God who does the circumcising of the heart...God performs a personal work/action when He circumcises the heart...the stated purpose and effect of that work/action performed directly by God upon the heart is to enable the heart "TO LOVE"...the LORD thy God".

Scripture paints a clear picture here...God personally circumcises the heart so as to enable the heart "to love"....Him.

The facts as presented in this scripture (Deu 30:6) are duplicated exactly in the account of Lydia...where the text in Lydia's example reads "whose heart the Lord opened" we have the synonymous phrase "And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart"

and where the text reads "that she attended unto the things spoken of Paul" we have the synonomous phrase "to love the LORD thy God".....[nothing could be more obvious]..these other scripture testify of the same.

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. (Rom 2:29)

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. (Eze 36:26)

In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (Col 2:11)

Lydia was given the right to become a Jew on the inside, a born again believer, after she received the gospel of Christ. Note, opening of the heart to respond to the gospel message refers to a person who has accepted God's word, believes in God and is seeking Christ. Thus the Lord has (through His revelation) opened their heart to respond to the message.

You continue to ignore the plain and clear meaning of the text........And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.(Act 16:14)

Van...the scripture does not say what you want it to say...all of your hypothesizing to explain away what it plainly states is just your attempt to obscure what is an embarrassing text in regards to exposing the errors in your theology.

Van...accept what the text plainly states.........not what you want it to mean.

Lydia's heart was opened by a direct, personal, work/action of God as the text clearly states "whose heart the Lord opened"....the Lord is personally attributed with the "doing" of that work/action of opening Lydia's heart....thats a fact....that you can't change no matter which way you try to cut it.

In post #10, an effort is made to say the Lord could not open a person's heart by providing His revelation, as if His Word has no power to directly change a person. But unless a person has heard and learned from the Father, will they come to Christ? So hearing and learning from the Father "opens the heart to repond to the gospel message.

It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. (Joh 6:45)

The proof that someone has (in fact) heard and learned from the Father.... is being in Christ.[anything LESS only proves that you haven't heard and learnt anything....at all.]

"cometh unto me" speaks of the immediacy of a face to face encounter....the ARRIVING in the presence of Christ and seeing Him before you.(circumcision/regeneration/new heart..."whose heart the Lord opened")

Joh 6:45 can be correctly applied to Lydia after "whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended" (circumcision of heart/regeneration)...BUT NOT ONE MOMENT BEFORE.

There is no way that Joh 6:45 supports your contention....at all.

Also in Post #9, an attempt is made to equate being outside of Christ, in an unregenerate state with total spiritual inability. But since total spiritual inability is demonstrated false by Matthew 23:13, and Matthew 13:20-22, the assertion has no merit.

Matthew 23:13, and Matthew 13:20-22 disagree with you...in fact both twins cracked up laughing...they both say your assertion has no validity....check it out for yourself ?

The fact of the matter is that Lydia as well as the head Rabbi of your local Synagogue are in the same position...AntiChrist...against Christ..plain and simple...ITS A LOCK.

Before the Lord opened Lydia's heart, the moment before.....she was a child of Wrath..it dosn't matter if she knows the prophets, goes to synagogue, what ever...she is outside of Christ...THAT MAKES HER...a enemy of the Father.

Lydia BEGAN to "hear" and "learn" from the Father so as to come to Christ after the Lord "opened" Lydia's heart...[not before]

So if we believe in God and are seeking Christ, our heart has been opened by the Lord, for we have heard and learned from the Father, and therefore the Lord has opened our heart to respond to the gospel. Opening of our hearts to receive the message does not equate to regeneration which occurs after we have received the message John 1:12-13.

Van...you don't seem to have gotten the message regarding the correct understanding of this scripture (Joh 1:12-13)....we all agree that particular persons "recieved" and "took hold" of what was "offered" to them....AGREED.

Why?.... Why did they "take hold" " of it?.......because.......they were "GIVEN" "IT"....[ IT = gospel + circumcised heart ]

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12-13)

"But of God"..in the sense that it was His "idea"............to ordain the Elect...from before the foundation of the world.

 

[nobdysfool]

Excellent post, moonbeam!

 

[jmacvols]

Scripture mentions a group of women that were gathered together by the river for religious observance...One member of that group, Lydia, has her heart opened directly by God....no mention is made of any other woman from that group experiencing similar effects.

Hence we have a legitimate distinction drawn between Lydia...and the group of women.

A similar distinction is established in the case of Saul's conversion on the Damascus road; where we see Saul accompanied by a group of like minded men, yet Saul is singled out in particular for the Lord's intervention and attention...not the others...in fact the Lord kept them all in the dark (they didn't know what was happening)

This is a clear indication, and a solid reason, to believe that Lydia's experience of having her heart opened directly by the Lord was a unique and particular event....one not shared by any other woman of her group.

Van...Your objections are unfounded.

"whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended"...the text clearly states that Lydia's heart was opened directly by God, that direct work/action causing an effect/result, that effect being Faith in Christ...Faith in Christ is what identifies you as a member of Spiritual Israel...Faith in Christ is the evidence that your heart has been/is circumcised.

Faith in Christ is what Lydia "developed" after her heart was opened directly by God.

That the direct opening by God of Lydia's heart is synonomous with, and equates to, circumcision of the heart as well as regeneration, is made obvious by the effect of that divine work of opening...namely FAITH...which is the mark of spiritual circucumsion (heart circumcision)

The connection between Gods opening of Lydias heart and regeneration/circumcision of the heart is valid and established by these scriptures.

And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. (Deu 30:6)

note: It is God who does the circumcising of the heart...God performs a personal work/action when He circumcises the heart...the stated purpose and effect of that work/action performed directly by God upon the heart is to enable the heart "TO LOVE"...the LORD thy God".

Scripture paints a clear picture here...God personally circumcises the heart so as to enable the heart "to love"....Him.

The facts as presented in this scripture (Deu 30:6) are duplicated exactly in the account of Lydia...where the text in Lydia's example reads "whose heart the Lord opened" we have the synonymous phrase "And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart"

and where the text reads "that she attended unto the things spoken of Paul" we have the synonomous phrase "to love the LORD thy God".....[nothing could be more obvious]..these other scripture testify of the same.

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. (Rom 2:29)

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. (Eze 36:26)

In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (Col 2:11)

You continue to ignore the plain and clear meaning of the text........And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.(Act 16:14)

Van...the scripture does not say what you want it to say...all of your hypothesizing to explain away what it plainly states is just your attempt to obscure what is an embarrassing text in regards to exposing the errors in your theology.

Van...accept what the text plainly states.........not what you want it to mean.

Lydia's heart was opened by a direct, personal, work/action of God as the text clearly states "whose heart the Lord opened"....the Lord is personally attributed with the "doing" of that work/action of opening Lydia's heart....thats a fact....that you can't change no matter which way you try to cut it.

It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. (Joh 6:45)

The proof that someone has (in fact) heard and learned from the Father.... is being in Christ.[anything LESS only proves that you haven't heard and learnt anything....at all.]

"cometh unto me" speaks of the immediacy of a face to face encounter....the ARRIVING in the presence of Christ and seeing Him before you.(circumcision/regeneration/new heart..."whose heart the Lord opened")

Joh 6:45 can be correctly applied to Lydia after "whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended" (circumcision of heart/regeneration)...BUT NOT ONE MOMENT BEFORE.

There is no way that Joh 6:45 supports your contention....at all.

Matthew 23:13, and Matthew 13:20-22 disagree with you...in fact both twins cracked up laughing...they both say your assertion has no validity....check it out for yourself ?

The fact of the matter is that Lydia as well as the head Rabbi of your local Synagogue are in the same position...AntiChrist...against Christ..plain and simple...ITS A LOCK.

Before the Lord opened Lydia's heart, the moment before.....she was a child of Wrath..it dosn't matter if she knows the prophets, goes to synagogue, what ever...she is outside of Christ...THAT MAKES HER...a enemy of the Father.

Lydia BEGAN to "hear" and "learn" from the Father so as to come to Christ after the Lord "opened" Lydia's heart...[not before]

Van...you don't seem to have gotten the message regarding the correct understanding of this scripture (Joh 1:12-13)....we all agree that particular persons "recieved" and "took hold" of what was "offered" to them....AGREED.

Why?.... Why did they "take hold" " of it?.......because.......they were "GIVEN" "IT"....[ IT = gospel + circumcised heart ]

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12-13)

"But of God"..in the sense that it was His "idea"............to ordain the Elect...from before the foundation of the world.

The context says "whose heart the Lord opened", it does not say "whose heart the Lord directly opened". The question is how did the Lord open her heart? You say the Lord did this in a direct manner. Where in the context does it say that God directly opened her heart? All the context tells us is that she heard the gospel spoken by Paul. Therefore it was the gospel that opened her heart, the Lord indirectly opened her heart by arranging that she hear the gospel spoken to her by Paul. If the Lord is going to operate directly on people's heart and 'save' them in this manner, then there is no point in having the written word, the bible. No point in having ministers to preach the word, Paul's presence was unnecessary. The bible tells us the gospel is to preached to all nations, every creature, [great commission] and thru this preaching of the gospel people will be saved, Rom 1:16, Mk 16:15,16. Lydia's conversion was no different than Simon's or the eunuch's....all three heard the gospel and obeyed it.

EDIT: You say before the Lord opened Lydia's heart, she was a "child of wrath". How can this be, for the context tells us she "worshipped God"? She may have been worshipping God after some manner in the OT, yet if she was totally depraved, she would not have been able to worship God in any manner.

 

[moonbeam]

The context says "whose heart the Lord opened", it does not say "whose heart the Lord directly opened".

There is no grammatical need for the seven letter word "directly" to be placed between the word's "Lord" and "opened"......because the grammatical structure of the sentence in English and Greek does not require its use.....the word "directly" is redundent......the sentence all ready tells you that .."the Lord opened"

The question is how did the Lord open her heart?

By His Creative Power of Regeneration and making Lydia a "new" Creature with a "new" heart.

You say the Lord did this in a direct manner. Where in the context does it say that God directly opened her heart? All the context tells us is that she heard the gospel spoken by Paul. Therefore it was the gospel that opened her heart, the Lord indirectly opened her heart by arranging that she hear the gospel spoken to her by Paul. If the Lord is going to operate directly on people's heart and 'save' them in this manner, then there is no point in having the written word, the bible. No point in having ministers to preach the word, Paul's presence was unnecessary. The bible tells us the gospel is to preached to all nations, every creature, [great commission] and thru this preaching of the gospel people will be saved, Rom 1:16, Mk 16:15,16. Lydia's conversion was no different than Simon's or the eunuch's....all three heard the gospel and obeyed it.

You seem to think that the substance of God can be subdivided into convenient (for you) catergories such as Direct and Indirect substances/means.

But God can not be altered in substance so that we have a Direct substance/means of God juxtaposed with a Indirect substance/means of God.

The words of scripture are "Spirit and Life"..... God is "Spirit and Life"

He remains undivided and undiluted in substance by what ever means of self-expression He chooses to employ.
In the case of the verbal proclamation of the Gospel through the use of the words of scripture by a Preacher....nothing has changed....God remains undivided and undiluted.....It is the Spirit in the man that gives utterance....and it is the Spirit that circumcises the heart...."whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended" [to what the Spirit in the Preacher was saying about the Word of God].....Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our Faith.....behind us and before us....the Alpha and Omega.

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. (Eze 36:26)

And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. (Deu 30:6)

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. (Rom 2:29)

Your attempt at a Houdini like escape from the shackles of Truth....have failed.

EDIT: You say before the Lord opened Lydia's heart, she was a "child of wrath". How can this be, for the context tells us she "worshipped God"? She may have been worshipping God after some manner in the OT, yet if she was totally depraved, she would not have been able to worship God in any manner.

There are only two sides in this game...Jesus said "He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth." (Luke 11:23)

There is the Light.....and the Darkness

Your IN........Or Your OUT.......Lydia was out.

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. (Eph 2:1-3)

 

[nobdysfool]

Holdon,

"the Lord opened her heart", or as the verse says, "whose heart the lord opened". Grammatically, there is no need for the word "directly" because the sentence shows that it was THE LORD who opened Lydia's heart. Simple subject > verb agreement. Nowhere there is any indication that Lydia opened her own heart, unilaterally, as you want it to say.

The LORD is the one who performed the action. There is no way to make it say anything other. It is the Lord who opens the heart of every person who hears and believes the Gospel.

To say otherwise is to take the credit for salvation away from God, where it rightly belongs, and claim it for oneself, where it does not belong.

Therefore, it is not of the man that wills, or the man that runs, but of God, who shows mercy. Romans 9:16

What is the "it" that is referred to? Election, which is inseparably tied to, and a part of, Salvation.

These two passages alone completely crush the man-centered gospel that you promote in contradiction to scripture.

 

[jmacvols]

There is no grammatical need for the seven letter word "directly" to be placed between the word's "Lord" and "opened"......because the grammatical structure of the sentence in English and Greek does not require its use.....the word "directly" is redundent......the sentence all ready tells you that .."the Lord opened"

Yes, the verse tells us the Lord opened her heart, no question about that. So the question is how did the Lord do it, directly or indirectly? Your theological bias causes you to assume it was done directly, for nothing in the verse says as much. Paul spoke the gospel to Lydia and she heard it and believed it, that is the only other information the context gives. We know from Rom 1:16 that the gospel is God's power to save, therefore the Lord opened her heart by having the gospel preached to her. Do you deny she was preached to? Do you deny the gospel can save?

By His Creative Power of Regeneration and making Lydia a "new" Creature with a "new" heart.

You seem to think that the substance of God can be subdivided into convenient (for you) catergories such as Direct and Indirect substances/means.

But God can not be altered in substance so that we have a Direct substance/means of God juxtaposed with a Indirect substance/means of God.

The words of scripture are "Spirit and Life"..... God is "Spirit and Life"

He remains undivided and undiluted in substance by what ever means of self-expression He chooses to employ.
In the case of the verbal proclamation of the Gospel through the use of the words of scripture by a Preacher....nothing has changed....God remains undivided and undiluted.....It is the Spirit in the man that gives utterance....and it is the Spirit that circumcises the heart...."whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended" [to what the Spirit in the Preacher was saying about the Word of God].....Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our Faith.....behind us and before us....the Alpha and Omega.

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. (Eze 36:26)

And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. (Deu 30:6)

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. (Rom 2:29)

Your attempt at a Houdini like escape from the shackles of Truth....have failed.

Nothing you say above changes the context. God is no respecter of person (Acts 10:34) all are saved in like manner (Acts 15:11)., therefore Lydia, the eunuch and Simon were all saved in like manner. The Lord did not directly open the heart of the eunuch, rather , Philip was sent to preach to him. What purpose did Philip serve in preaching to the eunuch? Why didn't the Holy Ghost just directly open his heart? Why send Philip?

Question you did not answer: if the Lord saves by operating directly on peoples' hearts, then why was Paul there preaching the gospel to Lydia, could Lydia be saved apart from the gospel? Why didn't the Lord just directly open the heart of the eunuch and "save" him instead of sending Philip to preach to him? What is the purpose of us having the written word, the bible, if the Lord is going to save people by operating directly on their heart? The fact is God has already determined that thru preaching those that believe will be saved, 1 Cor 1:21. That is why Christ sent His disciples to preach to every creature, Mk 16:15. What purpose does preaching serve if God is going to operate direcly on the heart, 2 Tim 4:2? Why did Paul go thru all the persecutions (2 Cor 11:23ff) he did preaching when it was unnecessary if God is directly operating on peoples heart? Rom 10:14, how can one believe unless he hear and how can one hear without a preacher? What sense does this verse make if God operates directly on the heart? Rom 10:17--does faith come by hearing the word or by the Lord directly operating on the heart?
And if God did operate directly on peoples heart to save them, how does God decide who's heart He will and will not open? Those whom the Lord does not directly open their heart are lost due to God's failure to open their heart.
The fact is, the bible does not teach that we are saved today by having the Lord operate directly upon our hearts. The bible plainly shows that it is God's plan that the gospel be preached by "earthen vessels" and those that believe will be saved. This is exaclty what happened to Lydia, the eunuch and Simon.

There are only two sides in this game...Jesus said "He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth." (Luke 11:23)

There is the Light.....and the Darkness

Your IN........Or Your OUT.......Lydia was out.

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. (Eph 2:1-3)

I never denied that Lydia was lost before she heard the gospel preached to her by Paul. But if Lydia was a "child of wrath" or "totally depraved", how was it that she "worshipped God"? How is it that a supossedly depraved person was able to worship God?

 

[nobdysfool]

I never denied that Lydia was lost before she heard the gospel preached to her by Paul. But if Lydia was a "child of wrath" or "totally depraved", how was it that she "worshipped God"? How is it that a supossedly depraved person was able to worship God?

C'mon, the churches are filled with people who "worship" God, and are unsaved! Just being in a church doesn't make you saved, any more than bing in a garage makes you a car! Lydia could have been worshiping what her concept of God was, but it wasn't until Paul preached the Gospel, that she was saved, because God opened her heart to listen to Paul's words as he preached the Gospel. god opened her heart, and she believed. Unless God opens the heart, no one would believe.

Why do you refuse to understand that God opens hearts, but He opens hearts to hear the Gospel? It's not an either/or situation. It is to the preaching of the Gospel that God opens hearts, as He Wills.

Your real problem is with the whole "free will" concept. "Free will" as defined by the non-Calvinists, is actually subtle rebellion, claiming a portion of the credit for their salvation to themselves, robbing God of Glory..