The Angel of God is....God.

[Lion King]

'from eternity', from Nicene creed , which GT posters are supposed to follow

here's 1st three paragraphs from the creed:

I believe in one God
the Father Almighty
Maker of heaven and earth
of all that is seen and unseen.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ.........Καὶ εἰς ἕνα Κύριον Ἰησοῦν Χριστόν,
the only begotten Son of God,.......τὸν Υἱὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ,
begotten of the Father.............τὸν ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς γεννηθέντα
before all ages (from eternity)....πρὸ πάντων τῶν αἰώνων·

God from God,
Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one being, with the Father;
through him all things were made.

The Son of God was NEVER born! The WORD has always been in existence with God in eternity. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the Last.

I, for one, do not follow the notion that Christ was born from eternity!

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

The Son of God was NEVER born! The WORD has always been in existence with God in eternity. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the Last.

I, for one, do not follow the notion that Christ was born from eternity!

The Great "I AM"

 

[John 07]

The Son of God was NEVER born! The WORD has always been in existence with God in eternity. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the Last.

I, for one, do not follow the notion that Christ was born from eternity!

The above underlined and bolded is illogical.
A son needs to be born right...somehow,
otherwise there's no use in talking of a son
(or for that matter a father, for a father that
doesn't beget anything is not a father)
If there's no Son from eternity past, then
there is neither the Father from eternity past.
Somebody has to beget and someone has to
be begotten from eternity in order for there
to be some kind of father-son relationship in
eternity. We know that there has been that
Father-Son relationship from eternity,
therefore there had to be somekind of begetting
in eternity past.

this is just basic Nicene creed stuff

but you don't believe in the Nicene creed?

 

[Fireinfolding]

<staff edit>

Yes, even I do get the gist but I wouldnt strive over a word, as it says

Isaiah 29:21 That make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of nought.


Well, for instance the Nicene creed says begotten, not made

But we know also...

Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

We know the Word was made flesh


And likewise...

Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee



So scripture uses both words the apostles didnt seem to be as quirky as we are over words.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

The above underlined and bolded is illogical.
A son needs to be born right...somehow,
otherwise there's no use in talking of a son
(or for that matter a father, for a father that
doesn't beget anything is not a father)
If there's no Son from eternity past, then
there is neither the Father from eternity past.
Somebody has to beget and someone has to
be begotten from eternity in order for there
to be some kind of father-son relationship in
eternity. We know that there has been that
Father-Son relationship from eternity,
therefore there had to be somekind of begetting
in eternity past.

Don't your own words come out of you?

John 1:18;"No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him."

John 16:27
For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

God's Word also came out of Him.

 

[Tzaousios]

The Son of God was NEVER born! The WORD has always been in existence with God in eternity. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the Last.

I, for one, do not follow the notion that Christ was born from eternity!

Wow, speaking of appealing to "human logic."

I do not believe in the Nicene creed. I believe in the word of God, and not any man-made creeds.

If there was a penny for every time this copout was tossed up in GT...

 

[Lion King]

I personally don't know how to explain without using some kind of deductions
(maybe someone else can). i'll pose a couple questions to you at end of post...

- i agree with you that 'this day I have begotten thee' is talking about Jesus being born/begotten from the dead at his resurrection, when cross-ref with Acts 13:33-34 & Rev 1:5 Jesus is the 'first begotten from the dead'

- Jesus was born of Mary through the power of the Holy Spirit, though Jesus never called the Holy Spirit 'Father'.

- Jesus mentions his 'Father' about 120 times in book of John alone,"Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was", but this was before his resurrection. If think Jesus' Father was only his Father after his begetting at his resurrection, then who is the Father he mentions so often during his ministry. It has to be the same Father, but why would Jesus call the Father 'Father' before he was born/begotten from the dead?


i) Mary and Holy Spirit give rise to Jesus' physical nature
ii) Father caused Jesus' resurrection body to come about, therefore he was
Jesus-resurrected's Father (Father of resurrected Jesus)
iii) from the 'Glorify me' verse above the Son must be talking about the Father-Son relationship the two had before the world was, in eternity.

why does Jesus mention the Father which he had before the world was, before his resurrection ? before God was Jesus' Father?


it doesn't make sense to me unless the Son was somehow set/begotten by the Father before the world was...

that's all i got

Again, Jesus Christ was NOT born by the Father before the world was. Christ has always existed with God, even before the world was...

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. John 1:1-2

That's just the way it is brother, stop trying to use human reasoning to understand the thoughts of God. Can God be born?

 

[John 07]

Again, Jesus Christ was NOT born by the Father before the world was. Christ has always existed with God, even before the world was...

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. John 1:1-2

That's just the way it is brother, stop trying to use human reasoning to understand the thoughts of God. Can God be born?

well, oldest and best manuscripts (used in NA27, UBS4) have:

No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God (&#956;&#959;&#957;&#959;&#947;&#949;&#957;&#8052;&#962; &#952;&#949;&#8056;&#962
who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him (Joh 1:18 NASB)
​

so that (as i see it)
Father > un-begotten God
Son > only begotten God

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

well, oldest and best manuscripts (used in NA27, UBS4) have:

No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God (&#956;&#959;&#957;&#959;&#947;&#949;&#957;&#8052;&#962; &#952;&#949;&#8056;&#962
who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him (Joh 1:18 NASB)
​

so that (as i see it)
Father > un-begotten God
Son > only begotten God

That is how I see it also

Young) John 1:18 God no one hath ever seen;
the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father--he did declare.

Greek NT - Textus Rec.)
John 1:18 qeon oudeiV ewraken pwpote
o monogenhV uioV o wn eiV ton kolpon tou patroV ekeinoV exhghsato

Greek NT - W-H )
John 1:18 qeon oudeiV ewraken pwpote
* monogenhV qeoV o wn eiV ton kolpon tou patroV ekeinoV exhghsato

Greek NT - Byz./Maj.)
John 1:18 qeon oudeiV ewraken pwpote
o monogenhV uioV o wn eiV ton kolpon tou patroV ekeinoV exhghsato

John 1 - Parallel Greek New Testament - HTML Bible by johnhurt.com


John 1:18

Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus
qeon oudeiV ewraken pwpote o monogenhV uios o wn eiV ton kolpon tou patroV ekeinoV exhghsato


Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus
qeon oudeiV ewraken pwpote o monogenhV uios o wn eiV ton kolpon tou patroV ekeinoV exhghsato

Byzantine Majority
qeon oudeiV ewraken pwpote o monogenhV uios o wn eiV ton kolpon tou patroV ekeinoV exhghsato

Alexandrian
qeon oudeiV ewraken pwpote monogenhV qeos o wn eiV ton kolpon tou patroV ekeinoV exhghsato

Hort and Westcott
qeon oudeiV ewraken pwpote monogenhV qeoV o wn eiV ton kolpon tou patroV ekeinoV exhghsato

 

[Lion King]

well, oldest and best manuscripts (used in NA27, UBS4) have:

No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God (&#956;&#959;&#957;&#959;&#947;&#949;&#957;&#8052;&#962; &#952;&#949;&#8056;&#962
who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him (Joh 1:18 NASB)
​

so that (as i see it)
Father > un-begotten God
Son > only begotten God

Can I ask you a simple question brother? Do you know what the word "only begotten" (monogenes) means?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Can I ask you a simple question brother? Do you know what the word "only begotten" (monogenes) means?

I am sure the unbelieving Jews of today would also like to know

http://www.christianforums.com/t7269600-10/#post48084109
The Only Begotten Son Of God

Does the biblical statement, "Jesus the only begotten Son of God" refer to His human birth?

 

[eachallberg]

Is the Ancient of Days God?

 

[1whirlwind]

WW - No LionKing, there has never been a time when the Word was not God for "The Word WAS God." The Word was not "the Son" until He was born of woman.

The Word was with God before the world began for the "Word WAS God," but until the "Word was made flesh," there was no Son.

The point you are missing is that the Son of God is God! He is equal with God!

No, no, no.....I'm not missing at all that the Son of God IS God. That is the point I am making...He IS God. But, God was not the Son or the Father of the Son until the birth of the Son. Father and Son are titles or roles of the One True God. One God and He is both Father and Son. Therefore, the Word was God.

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:5-11

Tell me something:

-do you believe that Christ is God?
-do you believe the Father is God?
-do you believe that the Holy-Spirit is God?

Yes, Yes, Yes.

What is the meaning of the word "only begotten"?

I explained previously and will repeat...

Sorry...I don't see it saying He was "begotten" before He was born of woman. Before that He was God for He was the Word made flesh and the "Word Was God."

The difference you're trying to point out is sort of a you say tomato and I say tomato. He "brought forth, gave birth to, a unique" entity....Jesus, the Only Begotten Son of God. Simple. Nothing at all about being "begotten before the world was formed."

That is the point of all this LionKing...not some tiny difference in the meaning of begotten.
​

Again, do you believe that the Son of God, is God?

Yes...the Son is God. He became the Son upon His birth. The Son is a role of the One True God.

LionKing - Jesus Christ was called the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD, even before He was begotten.

WW - That calls for a Scriptural quote...does it not?

Sure, no problemo.

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. Colossians 1:15-20

Good try but...it won't fly. The passage in Colossians, written after the crucifixion of the Son, is not a passage telling us He was the "only begotten Son before He was begotten." Rather, it explains the role of the Son who is God. When "all things were created in heaven and earth," there was no Son but there was the Word and...the Word Was God.

All things were created through THE SON OF GOD.

John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.

The "Him" through which all things were made is...the Word and the Word was God. The Word was God and not the Son until "the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us." Then He became the Father and the Son.


​

Jesus Christ is NOT the only "One" (as in singular) that is God. The Father is God, The Holy Spirit is God.

There is but One God and He created all things as by the Word were all things made. So, The Word is God and he created all things and there is but One God...

John 10:30 I and My Father are one.

Malachi 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

​

Of course, we are not the only begotten Son of God! This is what I have been saying all along...only Christ is! He is the one and only Son of God, as to the many sons of the LORD (angels, adopted children).

I will ask you again, do you know what the word ONLY BEGOTTEN means?



Thank God for the internet.

I must wonder...what in the dickins are we arguing about?




.

 

[1whirlwind]

First thing an angel is a spirit and has not flesh and bone.

That isn't true. Angelic beings do have flesh and bone. You must recognize that there are spirits and then...there are spirits:

Luke 24:36-40 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And He said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I myself: handle Me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see Me have. And when He had thus spoken, He shewed them His hands and His feet.
​

Evil spirits, demons, etc. that possess others are those Jesus was speaking of as not having flesh and bone. Angelic beings, as does Christ...do have flesh and bone.

Second the scriptures say God is Spirit and cannot be seen,(invisible God) but you say a part of God that can be seen?

Then you say this Angel God that can be seen is Melchizedek, which is also Jesus Christ (before his advent). What?

Advent means the coming of Christ into the world. So did He, or didn't He, please make up your mind?

God is spirit and cannot be seen. Therefore we see the Angel of God, or Melchizedek, who can be seen. The Angel of God is, as I said, how He manifests Himself to be seen. And yes, I submit that Melchizedek is the part of God, the Angel of God, that would become the Son of God upon His birth...upon His first Advent.

Jesus Christ, who is the SON of God, didn't become the Son until He was born of woman. That is when the Son, or role of the Son, came into the world. Before that He was the Word and the Word has always been for the Word Was God.

So your saying Jesus Christ did come, but then in the same breath your saying Jesus Christ did not come as this Angel God Melchizedek? Huh?

I'm confused because in the last part of your post you go on to say that Jesus the Angel of God Melchizedek was to be born later on of Mary and then become the Son of God and also son of Man. Wow! Really?

Are ye so without understanding? This is not rocket surgery. It is a matter of roles, titles, names and the times in which they are named.

And you also said that the Son of God was not born until Jesus came in the flesh. So lets see what God actually said about His Son, and his Christ, and Melchisedec.

Hebrews 5:5-6

King James Version (KJV)


5So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. 6As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

First thing notice that Christ is spoken of as the Son of God, who would be after the order of Melchisedec, a priest forever.

Pay special attention to the highlighted parts.

In Hebrews 7:3 we learn more about the likeness of Melchisedec who is also a reflection of the Son of God who was also...

Hebrews 7:3;"Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life: but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually."

So we see by scripture that the Lord's Christ, which is the Son of God, had no earthly parents, neither had he any beginning of days, meaning the Son of God always was, and has been ever eternal with God the Father from the very beginning.

Indeed the WORD was with God from the very beginning. The Son was not the Son until the Word became flesh....dost thou see? Melchizedek was God, seen as the Angel of God, and as it was before the birth of the Son then He was not yet Jesus Christ who is the Son of the Father. He was God.

Again...a matter of timing and of names.



.

 

[1whirlwind]

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. John 1:1-2

The Word was with God. What does that mean to you?

It means the Word, the part of God that would become the Son, was always the plan of God from the beginning. And...that same Word was God. They are One.


.

 

[1whirlwind]

The Son of God was NEVER born! The WORD has always been in existence with God in eternity. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the Last.

I, for one, do not follow the notion that Christ was born from eternity!

The Word has always been....and then...the Word was made flesh and became the Son of God:

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Luke 1:30-32 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto Him the throne of His father David:
​

.

 

[Lion King]

No, no, no.....I'm not missing at all that the Son of God IS God. That is the point I am making...He IS God. But, God was not the Son or the Father of the Son until the birth of the Son. Father and Son are titles or roles of the One True God. One God and He is both Father and Son. Therefore, the Word was God.

Do you believe that the Father is not the Son?

I explained previously and will repeat...
Sorry...I don't see it saying He was "begotten" before He was born of woman. Before that He was God for He was the Word made flesh and the "Word Was God."

The difference you're trying to point out is sort of a you say tomato and I say tomato. He "brought forth, gave birth to, a unique" entity....Jesus, the Only Begotten Son of God. Simple. Nothing at all about being "begotten before the world was formed."

That is the point of all this LionKing...not some tiny difference in the meaning of begotten.

Please can you answer the question. What does the word only begotten (monogenes) mean?

Yes...the Son is God. He became the Son upon His birth. The Son is a role of the One True God.

So, what did Paul meant that the world and everything was created by the Father through the Son?

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. Colossians 1:15-17

Good try but...it won't fly. The passage in Colossians, written after the crucifixion of the Son, is not a passage telling us He was the "only begotten Son before He was begotten." Rather, it explains the role of the Son who is God. When "all things were created in heaven and earth," there was no Son but there was the Word and...the Word Was God.

Who did God create the world through?

John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.

The "Him" through which all things were made is...the Word and the Word was God. The Word was God and not the Son until "the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us." Then He became the Father and the Son.​

Who has ascended up into heaven, or descended? who has gathered the wind in his fists? who has bound the waters in a garment? who has established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if you can tell? Proverbs 30:4

Tell me if you know the answer to that question?

There is but One God and He created all things as by the Word were all things made. So, The Word is God and he created all things and there is but One God...
John 10:30 I and My Father are one.

Malachi 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

So, was the Son of God created?

I must wonder...what in the dickins are we arguing about?

That the Son was always in existence with God, even before the world was formed.

And now, O Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world was. John 17:5
​

 

[Lion King]

It means the Word, the part of God that would become the Son, was always the plan of God from the beginning. And...that same Word was God. They are One.

Is God one (as in singular)?

 

[Lion King]

That isn't true. Angelic beings do have flesh and bone. You must recognize that there are spirits and then...there are spirits:

Luke 24:36-40 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And He said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I myself: handle Me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see Me have. And when He had thus spoken, He shewed them His hands and His feet.
​

Evil spirits, demons, etc. that possess others are those Jesus was speaking of as not having flesh and bone. Angelic beings, as does Christ...do have flesh and bone.

To be honest, I do not understand your arguments, they seem to be all over the place. I mean, what does that even mean, that there are spirits and then...there are spirits?

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Are ye so without understanding? This is not rocket surgery. It is a matter of roles, titles, names and the times in which they are named.
.

I understand just fine, and I also know what I see, which is nothing more than smoke and mirrors doctrine which is contrary to the Word of God, which I and others have shown to you by scripture,(which you also refuse to accept).

If I thought it would do any good I would keep beating a dead horse, but clearly you don't receive instruction from me, or anyone else for that matter, as you have also proved in the past.

I also brush off the dust of me feet as a testament against you, and your false doctrine.