The Abomination/Man of Lawlessness/Beast/ANTICHRIST

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LittleLambofJesus

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"Teach them to carry out EVERYTHING I have commanded you.
And know that I AM with you until the end of the world."
Matt. 28:20
I trust Benedict XVI to see that we receive the AUTHENTIC MESSAGE of Christ
:)
Make sure your pope has the correct translations also. :wave:

Matthew 28:20 "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, [even] to the end of the age." Amen.

Revelation 16:17 And the seventh messenger did pour out his vial to the air, and there came forth a great voice from the sanctuary of the heaven, from the throne, saying, `It is done!'
 
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tall73

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Folks, please make sure that you keep your comments charitable. We are on thin ice to start with when speaking of this passage because of the historical interpretation of some of the protestant churches, of which my denomination is one. Let's make sure we are discussing the issue and not the other posters or else this whole thing will be shut down.

Also, please keep to the evidence. If you are making a claim back it up.
 
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Carlos Vigil

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Make sure your pope has the correct translations also. :wave:

Matthew 28:20 "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, [even] to the end of the age." Amen.

Revelation 16:17 And the seventh messenger did pour out his vial to the air, and there came forth a great voice from the sanctuary of the heaven, from the throne, saying, `It is done!'

Which, of the 600+translations out there, would YOU recommend for the Pope ?

What, in your opinion, is the difference between "the end of the world"... and
"the end of the age"?

How does Rev.16:17 fit in with this discussion ?
 
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helenofbritain

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Well, he's a Lutheran, not a Jack Chick-an, so you guys are off the hook. (That was a joke, so please don't flame me.)
Guess your prophesy charism was a little off when you posted this... :D And I like you sense of humour.
 
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Jimlarmore

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Snce we know that in the Bible beasts are symbolic of kingdoms and powers it should be clear that the beast of Rev 13 or Dan 7 is a kingdom or nation in the last days. This kingdom or nation will be this power of antichrist. If you study the way this beast is described you can come to a conclusion that this is not a normal political power but a religious one. taking all the information that Tall73 gave leads one to conclude this power of antichrist is the Church of Rome.

This was also the conclusion of Martin Luther and many of the reformers who started the reformation/protestant movement. This is not a slander or invalidation on the wonderful and fine folks who are in this church.

God Bless
Jim Larmore
 
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Jimlarmore

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No, no, no!
:sigh:

The 1st beast of Rev. 13 has not yet risen.

What Biblical support do you have for this conclusion? I am sincerely curious and not trying to provoke a confrontation. I am always open to various interpretations of the scriptures.

God Bless
Jim Larmore
 
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Zadok7000

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What Biblical support do you have for this conclusion? I am sincerely curious and not trying to provoke a confrontation. I am always open to various interpretations of the scriptures.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Hi Jim,

Quite simply, the "time of trouble" is part and parcel of the 1st beast of Rev. 13. They cannot be separated. The "little horn" comes with that beast, they too cannot be separated.

Dan. 12:1
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
=
Rev. 12:7-17
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels...And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him...Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
=
Matt. 24 (Mark 13)
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)...For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs ("pseudochristos"; singular), and false prophets ("pseudoprophetes"; singular), and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
=
Dan. 9
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
=
Rev. 13
the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority...And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast...And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast

For the beast to rise, the Dragon/Little Horn/ Pseudochristos/Pseudoprophetes has to be here de facto.

Dan. 7:7-8
After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
 
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Jabronie

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So would I, I believe they are all different things.

Someone asked what my denomination believes, and though it may not be an "official teaching" it is widely accepted, and that is that it is the papacy (not any individual Pope, just the Office.)

Now, I personally do not believe the Offeice of the Pope is THE antichrist.

I would like to start by looking at II Thes. 2.

What is your interpretaition of these verses??
It's sad that your denomination appears to be one of hate instead of love.
 
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brother daniel

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Hi Jim,

Quite simply, the "time of trouble" is part and parcel of the 1st beast of Rev. 13.

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

This 1st beast is the same seven headed beast we find in Revelation 17:3 It is a scarlet colored beast full of names of blasphemy having seven heads and ten horns,

Rev.17:9 And her is the mind that has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sitteth.

And there are seven kings, five are fallen,

At the time John gave this prophesy the seven kingdoms had falllen that were all connected by Commerce and religion. They were Egypt, Israel, Babylon, Persia and Greece.

He then says" one is." that one is Rome.

Then he says and" the other is not yet come".

That one that was yet to come appears to me to be the United States of America.

Rvelation 17;11 And the beast that was and is not, even he is the eighth and is of the seven and goeth into perdition.

To me that 8th beast is the wicked kingdom of Israel That was destroyed by Rome and has been revived since Friday May 14, 1948 .

They cannot be separated. The "little horn" comes with that beast, they too cannot be separated.

The little horn is Eze 21:25 And thou, profane wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, when iniquity [shall have] an end,


Dan. 12:1
]And at that time shall ]Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

This is what we are headed into now that the government of Israel and its commercial activity is back on the world stage with nuclear weapons, "the abomination that maketh desolate".

Rev. 12:7-17
[And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels...And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him...Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time

Matt. 24 (Mark 13)
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)...For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs ("pseudochristos"; singular), and false prophets ("pseudoprophetes"; singular), and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The decption is the Frankist Messinaic Judisism of Shabbatai Zvi, In his early youth he attended a Yeshiva under the veteran rabbi of Smyrna, Joseph_Escapa . He was considered by most Jews as the Messiah until September 1666, when the Sultan of Turkey threatened him with torture unless he converted to Islam. He relented and most of Jewry abandoned him. But not all. A core of his followers kept their messiah alive and kicking hard.There was an outward reality and an inner reality. Once the followers accepted the concept of paradox, they would be able to keep on believing in Shabbatai Zvi...An inner circle of his followers accepted the explanations and continued to believe in Shabbatai the Messiah.

The Shabatai followers continued their hidden life in the Turkish sect of the Donmeh, whose activities continue to this day, as reported extensively this year, even by the staid Jerusalem Post. One of the Donmeh followers was Jacob Frank, who would transform Europe and the world into a Shabbataian hell barely a century later. [/S

The Donmeh now converted the Shabbatain Purim into an annual orgy, when members exchanged spouses for a ceremony called "extinguishing the lights." The Donmeh justified their Purim orgies, and their regular practise of sharing wives and engaging in other sexual activities, by citing biblical precedents.

Frank (1726-1791) was born fifty years after the death ofShabbatai Zvi, he deserves to be regarded as Shabbatai's true successor According to Frank, engaging in sexual orgies now became the means to purify the soul from its sins. Debauchery became therapy...Frank convinced his followers that the only way for their special form of Judaism to survive was for them to outwardly]become Christians, just as the Donmeh had descended into the world of Islam...In February, 1759, the Frankists told the Church they were ready to be baptized...The Frankists promised to deliver 5000 new Christians from Poland,

The Frankists also became involved in international political intrigue, and sent secret emissaries to the Russian government and the Eastern Orthodox Church offering to help in the overthrow of Poland and the Catholic Church..

By 1786, Frank suffered temporary financial problems, and moved his court to Offenbach, near Frankfurt. There Frank's money problems were somehow solved. The source of Frank's immense wealth is not clear. He may have used his movement's system of secret messengers and clandestine cells to engage in the constant political turmoil involving Austria-Hungary, Turkey and the Balkans.
Frankfurt was the birthplace of both the Illuminatti and the Rothschild empire. When Jacob Frank entered the city, the alliance between the two had already begun. Weishaupt provided the conspiratorial resources of the Jesuit Order, while the Rothschilds contributed the money. What was missing was a means to spread the agenda of the Illuminatti and that the Frankists added with their network of agents throughout the Christian and Islamic worlds.
What we have here is the Synagogue of Satan in action. and it begins in Smyrna

Moses Dobruška (1753–1794) was a nephew of Jacob Frank, the founder of the Frankist sect who claimed to be the Jewish messiah. Dobruška was an alchemist, freemason, writer, and poet. In 1773 he converted from Judaism to the Catholic faith and took the name of Franz Thomas Schönfeld. In 1778 he was elevated to nobility in Vienna, becoming Franz Thomas Edler von Schönfeld. Together with Ephraim Joseph Hirschfeld, who did not convert, he became one of the main conspirators of the “Knights of St. John the Evangelists for Asia in Europe,” a secret society of freemasons, which was much talked about in Germany and Austria between 1783 and 1790, not least because it was the first German-speaking fraternal order to accept Jews.

Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but [are] the synagogue of Satan.
Dan. 9:I And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Rev. 13
the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority...And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast...And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast.

The beast is the government of Israel.

For the beast to rise, the Dragon/Little Horn/ Pseudochristos/Pseudoprophetes has to be here de facto.

Dan. 7:7-8
After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Eze 21:25 And thou, profane wicked prince of Israel,
whose day is come, when iniquity [shall have] an end,

With love in Christ
brother daniel
 
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Carlos Vigil

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Snce we know that in the Bible beasts are symbolic of kingdoms and powers it should be clear that the beast of Rev 13 or Dan 7 is a kingdom or nation in the last days. This kingdom or nation will be this power of antichrist. If you study the way this beast is described
you can come to a conclusion that this is not a normal political power but a religious one. taking all the information that Tall73 gave
leads one to conclude this power of antichrist is the Church of Rome.

This was also
the conclusion of Martin Luther and many of the reformers who started the reformation/protestant movement. This is not a slander or invalidation on the wonderful and fine folks who are in this church.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Self examination ... can be painful and difficult, in some cases even impossible,
For instance, When I first discovered "antichrist" ...in 1 John 2:18, 19
My first suspicion was ME !


What is there in my life (my ego) that is against Christ ?... or that RESISTS OBEYING HIM ?
So I began to ask around. .....Naturally "the bible experts" said ; OH ! ... the antichrist is the Pope,
...as they began spewing a torrent of polluted water out of the mouth. (Rev.12:15)

"They hated me without cause" ... came to my mind,...

Which led me to conclude;
"When the Holy Spirit comes he will convict the world of sin, of justice, and of judgment."

----------------------------------------------------------------
To lay that guilt on the Pope is a way of RESISTING the CONVICTION of the holy Spirit.
----------------------------------------------------------------
a clever way of thwarting THE GRACE OF REPENTANCE.

Hard and narrow is the way that LEADS TO LIFE and few there are who find it.
broad and easy is the way that LEADS TO DESTRUCTION and many they are who walk in it."


.
 
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Jimlarmore

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Self examination ... can be painful and difficult, in some cases even impossible,
For instance, When I first discovered "antichrist" ...in 1 John 2:18, 19
My first suspicion was ME !


What is there in my life (my ego) that is against Christ ?... or that RESISTS OBEYING HIM ?
So I began to ask around. .....Naturally "the bible experts" said ; OH ! ... the antichrist is the Pope,
...as they began spewing a torrent of polluted water out of the mouth. (Rev.12:15)

"They hated me without cause" ... came to my mind,...

Which led me to conclude;
"When the Holy Spirit comes he will convict the world of sin, of justice, and of judgment."
----------------------------------------------------------------
To lay that guilt on the Pope is a way of RESISTING the CONVICTION of the holy Spirit.
----------------------------------------------------------------
a clever way of thwarting THE GRACE OF REPENTANCE.

Hard and narrow is the way that LEADS TO LIFE and few there are who find it.
broad and easy is the way that LEADS TO DESTRUCTION and many they are who walk in it."

.

Very true and well put however, the Bible gives us many clues that only the Roman Papal Power fits. There are at least 10 clues in the Bible that are things that point only to the papal power as the little horn of Dan 7 and the beast of Rev 13. Even a time resolution that fits exactly the time he held rule was given in both Daniel and Revelatiin. This time went from 538 A.D. to 1798 when Gen. Berthier removed the sitting pope from power. Which was exactly 1260 days as it was prophecied.

I agree we all can have a spirit of antichrist in our hearts and indeed our natural tendancy is to do that, but if we study with an open mind the Bible the truth of God's message comes out strong and cannot be denied logically.

God Bless
Jim Larmore
 
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Zadok7000

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Very true and well put however, the Bible gives us many clues that only the Roman Papal Power fits. There are at least 10 clues in the Bible that are things that point only to the papal power as the little horn of Dan 7 and the beast of Rev 13. Even a time resolution that fits exactly the time he held rule was given in both Daniel and Revelatiin. This time went from 538 A.D. to 1798 when Gen. Berthier removed the sitting pope from power. Which was exactly 1260 days as it was prophecied.

I agree we all can have a spirit of antichrist in our hearts and indeed our natural tendancy is to do that, but if we study with an open mind the Bible the truth of God's message comes out strong and cannot be denied logically.

God Bless
Jim Larmore


So you believe the Great Tribulation/Time of Trouble/Daniel's 70th Week has already occurred???
 
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Zadok7000

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Very true and well put however, the Bible gives us many clues that only the Roman Papal Power fits. There are at least 10 clues in the Bible that are things that point only to the papal power

Please list them. I will be happy to shoot down all 10.

as the little horn of Dan 7 and the beast of Rev 13.

The little horn is not the 7 headed beast. They come together, but one is an indivudual, the other a system.
 
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NumberOneSon

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Even a time resolution that fits exactly the time he held rule was given in both Daniel and Revelatiin. This time went from 538 A.D. to 1798 when Gen. Berthier removed the sitting pope from power.
No, it does not fit exactly. A number of years ago I did a lot of reading on 6th Century Rome, and recall that Vigilius was consecrated and recognized as the pope in 537AD. That would make 1261 years, which doesn't fit the prophecy. Not to mention that Justinian gave the Exarch of Ravenna the position of supreme authority in the Western Empire (in 554AD?...off the top of my head), not the Papacy. So giving any special significance to 538AD doesn't make any sense, especially since the Goths sacked Rome several times in the years following 538.

In Christ,

Acts6:5
 
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Carlos Vigil

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Very true and well put however, the Bible gives us many clues that only the Roman Papal Power fits. There are at least 10 clues in the Bible that are things that point only to the papal power as the little horn of Dan 7 and the beast of Rev 13. Even a time resolution that fits exactly the time he held rule was given in both Daniel and Revelatiin. This time went from 538 A.D. to 1798 when Gen. Berthier removed the sitting pope from power. Which was exactly 1260 days as it was prophecied.

I agree we all can
(A) have a spirit of antichrist in our hearts and indeed our natural tendancy is to do that,
but if we

(B) study with an open mind the Bible the truth of God's message comes out strong and cannot be denied logically.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

God's truth can not be denied logically....

That (A). is true .
That (B). becomes a frenzied search for a Pope to unload all that ..."antichrist in our hearts" onto .

"...the ignorant and the unstable distort them (just as they do the rest of the scriptures) to their ruin,"
(2 Peter 3:16)

By the way,
Seems that all these " bible experts "who devote themselves to prove that the Pope is the antichrist
have completely wandered from the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and are devoid of THE NEW COVENANT ?

Their message seems to be
90% anti Pope
10% Christ


How did that happen ?

....."I hold this against you, you have left your first Love."
(Rev.2:4)


.
 
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Zadok7000

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If I may add, I do not believe at all that the anti-christ will be a pope.

I do believe that it is possible that "a pope" could be the false prophet.


The false christ and the false prophet are the same.
 
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