Systemic racism in the USA: Are whites "guiltier" if they had slavery in their past?

[FredVB]

I'm a Boomer. I very well remember segregation. I was in middle school before I ever met a white person...I'd never spoken to a white person before then. I'd never been on a playground with a white child, or a school, or in a swimming pool or a movie theater with a white child until I was a teenager. They had their own pools and theaters and playgrounds...we saw them from a distance. We were warned not to interact with them (Emmett Till and others were still fresh in our parents' minds). We were taught that being in the presence of a white person was like being in the presence of a grizzly bear...you move slowly and talk quietly and leave the vicinity as quickly as possible.

My wife and I can tell similar stories about traveling in the South as children, our parents having to be exceedingly cautious about where they stopped. My father would get out first at a gas station or restaurant to see if we'd be served. Sometimes we could enter. Sometimes he'd get back in the car and say we had to find another place. My wife's father chose to do his driving at night when he'd have the least chance of running into any white people on the highway (him, a wife, and three daughters...his risk was high).

By the 70s I had thought that the Boomer generation would be the first integrated generation. I had thought that for a long time. My mind got changed after Obama's election. For a short time after that, I thought times had changed even more quickly than I'd hoped.

But then I saw white Boomers reacting in like their mothers had been slapped. People I'd known for 30 years--people I though were racially cool--changed before my eyes like werewolves. Not all, of course. But I saw that the segregation that had been very carefully and fully inculcated into us by all of American society, from schoolbooks to television, was still in there.

A few years ago, my wife and I were driving through an "old money" area of Dallas. We saw a young black man in a jogging suit jogging on the sidewalk. I said, "Huh." My wife said, "Huh." We realized that the young black man in that neighborhood had caught both our attentions, and we talked about that for a moment. That young man was not in a place we would have expected him to be, and we'd both noticed it. We were pleased to see him in that neighborhood, and that pleasure in itself meant the programming of our early childhoods was still down there. We realized that for both of us, down deep, that there was still a concept of where "they" should be and where "we" should be, even though we consciously railed against it.

I realized the Boomer generation is not the first integrated generation, we're just the last segregated generation.

I remember pretty far back. Bussing was starting in the sixties to end segregation, when there were riots against the racism in that decade. Of course that was not the end of racists then. Racist families persisted and clearly they still do. The generation raising the baby boomer generation as it was known was in administration levels then doing things about segregation. Largely those of the baby boomer generation turned from the racism that was institutionalized, while some as it later became clear continued with the racism in their families. The solution will not come just waiting for a generation to die out. Things were being done about it way back then, and still things should be done rather than being idle waiting for a generation or any group to die off.

 

[RDKirk]

I remember pretty far back. Bussing was starting in the sixties to end segregation, when there were riots against the racism in that decade. Of course that was not the end of racists then. Racist families persisted and clearly they still do. The generation raising the baby boomer generation as it was known was in administration levels then doing things about segregation. Largely those of the baby boomer generation turned from the racism that was institutionalized, while some as it later became clear continued with the racism in their families. The solution will not come just waiting for a generation to die out. Things were being done about it way back then, and still things should be done rather than being idle waiting for a generation or any group to die off.

You don't really understand what America was like for the Boomer and earlier generations...how absolutely pervasive segregation was throughout society. It became in many ways a completely different planet within a decade in many ways, a difference of a depth that usually takes a nation losing a war and being permanently occupied by another nation.

I think everything that needs to be done by the government has been done..."the fix is in." Anything more (such as DEI) pushes the pendulum too far to the opposite direction. There is a lot of racism today among younger people that is "reactionary racism," and that's measurable just since 2000, even since 2020. The original standard of equality--not "equity"--is what the government should strive to attain.

Affirmative Action is a necessity for the Boomer and earlier generations...I would say that it can expire along with the Boomer Generation. You're saying the same thing: "Largely those of the baby boomer generation turned from the racism that was institutionalized, while some as it later became clear continued with the racism in their families."

Those minds won't change, but those people will die.

 

[timothyu]

Largely those of the baby boomer generation turned from the racism that was institutionalized

Some of us in other lands never realized it existed until visiting. But some of us few remaining Boomers (an odd statement in itself) see today this insane concept of bringing back segregation by the very people once the victims of it. Personal identity is good but destabilization is not and only benefits politicians who thrive on being the saviours of the downtrodden. These parasites need a renewal of the old ways and are not beyond once again manipulating minorities in order to achieve it..

 

[RDKirk]

Some of us in other lands never realized it existed until visiting. But some of us few remaining Boomers (an odd statement in itself) see today this insane concept of bringing back segregation by the very people once the victims of it. Personal identity is good but destabilization is not and only benefits politicians who thrive on being the saviours of the downtrodden. These parasites need a renewal of the old ways and are not beyond once again manipulating minorities in order to achieve it..

They don't understand why our parents fought to end segregation.

It's true that there were many more black small businesses prior to the Civil Rights Act...obviously so because white business owners didn't care to cater to the personal needs of black people, such as barbering, hair styling, and restaurants...or even mortuary services. So, black people could have those kinds of small businesses. Oh, and in many places in the South where segregation was more complete in the school system, the more educated blacks could be teachers in the town's single black elementary school and high school.

But beyond those short avenues, black advancement was largely blocked. A black man could have a successful small restaurant, but if he took his business plan to a bank for a loan to open another restaurant...well, what need was there for a black man to have two restaurants?

If a black business still somehow got too lucrative, white enterprises were likely to squeeze it out or crush it. Separate, but never equal...equality was never the intention, and inequality was zealously maintained by any means necessary.

I may have mentioned this before. In 1960, in the Oklahoma town where I spent the late 60s, black residents decided to have a middle-class housing addition. Segregated, of course, being still 1960, but middle class. It's my understanding that it took a lot of money changing hands and even some state-level legislation to make it happen over the objection of the city authorities. Separate, but never equal...

The addition got built about a mile south of the built-up area of the city, with the expectation that city growth would someday join it, there would be businesses nearby, and eventually an elementary school like all the other housing additions.

What happened: The city first built a low-income housing project on the north side between the new addition and the rest of the city, ensuring the city would never expand past that point. The city then built a prison on the east side and an airport on the west side. And never built a school.

In many other cities, the black neighborhood was where property was zoned for industry, where the landfills were located, where the freeways were routed. If there were cutbacks in city services, they happened in the black neighborhoods. If schools were short of funds, it was the black schools that got shorted.

Basically, the reason my parents' generation fought for integration is because being segregated just made us easier targets.

The irony of this misguided re-segregation discussion is this: Segregation is not safe unless you control the larger political and economic sectors. Young black people want to be segregated because they feel unsafe around "evil" white people. But these same white people control the larger political and economic sectors upon which the segregation would depend--the same situation my parents endured. If white people are still so evil, that's going back to the same bad situation.

OTOH, if white people have progressed to the point that we would be safe re-segregated...then there isn't any real reason to be re-segregated. As Chris Rock said, "We've got the best white people now that we've ever had."

They can't deal with white people because of "microaggressions." Give me a break. A "microaggression" is an act so tiny you have to go to college to learn to see it. White people were still bombing our Sunday Schools and busses in 1964; when de-segregation started in 1965, there was nothing "micro" about the aggression.

And there is always more than one thing happening. Back in those days, people were taught to be polite. If a white person was impolite or abrasive to a black person, it was nearly certainly a matter of racism. These days, manners and politeness have gone out of the window. Everyone feels free to be "authentic" and "real"...which means everyone feels free to be a jerk. So, if a white person is impolite or abrasive to a black person, it's more likely he's just a jerk.

 

[timothyu]

They don't understand why our parents fought to end segregation.

They may have understood but only wanted to use them to political advantage, (even the Kennedys) much in the same way as the other side used abortion. Lots of promises come election time but only convenient if it can be dragged out for decades with no resolve.

 

[RDKirk]

They may have understood but only wanted to use them to political advantage, (even the Kennedys) much in the same way as the other side used abortion. Lots of promises come election time but only convenient if it can be dragged out for decades with no resolve.

No, the young black people do not understand what segregation was. It's a different planet that they've just read some things about.

 

[timothyu]

No, the young black people do not understand what segregation was. It's a different planet that they've just read some things about.

Understood. Gee we're getting old lol

 

[bèlla]

It's disingenuous to pretend that biases don't exist. It's disingenuous to pretend benefits aren't bestowed upon the bearer by those who share those biases.

This isn't limited to race. The same occurs with wealth, physical attractiveness, social class, education, neighborhood, material possessions and so on. We have many ways to discriminate.

I don't apologize for who I am. But I don't deny the benefits of possessing the qualities others esteem. That's hypocritical. I know they're making allowances and bending the rules on my behalf.

Race is the only subject where people are uncomfortable acknowledging this. You would never hear the same from an attractive woman or a man with means. They've had enough experiences to draw from.

The truth isn't always pretty but it's true nonetheless. That doesn't make you unfeeling or an oppressor because someone values your hue. It is what it is.

One of the benefits of this period in spite of its ugliness is the cessation of political correctness. While I don't agree with course speech or unkind remarks you can't pin all of this on provocateurs. They've felt this way all along and the conditions weren't favorable to acknowledge it but now they are.

I've heard hateful comments on all those subjects on the Internet and I try to look beyond the venom to understand the bother and what provoked it. A lot of it is economic. Some of it is familial. Marital demise and gender wars. Some of it is societal. Concerns about children, education and negative influences. Some of it is political and related to the country.

There's a lot of frustration and a growing sense of unfairness. Which compels some to complain, lash out or villainize others. They need a scapegoat. They can't hurt the one who hurt them or punish the ones in charge. So they take it out on others.

~bella

 

[RDKirk]

It's disingenuous to pretend that biases don't exist. It's disingenuous to pretend benefits aren't bestowed upon the bearer by those who share those biases.

This isn't limited to race. The same occurs with wealth, physical attractiveness, social class, education, neighborhood, material possessions and so on. We have many ways to discriminate.

I don't apologize for who I am. But I don't deny the benefits of possessing the qualities others esteem. That's hypocritical. I know they're making allowances and bending the rules on my behalf.

Race is the only subject where people are uncomfortable acknowledging this. You would never hear the same from an attractive woman or a man with means. They've had enough experiences to draw from.

When I was a kid, race was the hard barrier for my parents every day. No other personal characteristic mattered, race was the hard barrier.

As you have alluded, today there are a good many soft barriers. IMO, being black is the same level of barrier as the others today with the younger generations. The capacity of someone (excluding extreme and uncommon situations) to harm me for my race is at the same level as their capacity to harm me for my height or physical attractiveness.

It's almost amazing to me that many white people today even recognize physical beauty in black people that is not in accordance with European standards of beauty. There are young white guys with posters of black women on their walls...that's freaky to me.

 

[bèlla]

When I was a kid, race was the hard barrier for my parents every day. No other personal characteristic mattered, race was the hard barrier.

I think that's true for most people of color from older generations. Things were different then and the realities of race were felt in ways we don't encounter now. My family was reared in the south but we were born elsewhere. My daughter and I are the most integrated of the lot. I experienced greater difficulty from adults who shared my ethnicity than those who didn't in respect to integration.

Like most teens I loved music. My classmates shared their favorites and I liked them. I bought the songs and took advantage of the opportunities in my environment. It was the first time I heard someone say I act white. And you know where that leads. I changed schools and then I heard you talk white. And you dress white and so on.

I mentioned it to my aunt and asked her why they said it. She said my difference made them uncomfortable and I didn't feel out of place around whites. We reflected on this a few months ago. I was the same way as a child. I never noticed whites when we were out or the omission of blacks in the environment. It didn't register. I'm not saying I don't see color. But I don't make a big deal about it.

It's almost amazing to me that many white people today even recognize physical beauty in black people that is not in accordance with European standards of beauty. There are young white guys with posters of black women on their walls...that's freaky to me.

A lot of white men are attracted to black women. There was a time when you didn't see it often. I think that began to change with my generation. There was more openness and curiosity on both sides. While I don't typically address racial differences this is an area where it can't be ignored. There's a difference between dating someone and marrying them. You have to be more discriminating when that's your goal.

Although I date interracially I don't believe it's the right thing for everyone. There's a lot of unspoken rules and you have to be able to navigate the cultural differences. While I don't want to generalize I think it bears mentioning nonetheless.

Some men are attracted to ethnicity. They want the difference. And some desire a white woman in a different hue. They want their ideal in that packaging. It's important they understand and know where they fall on that scale and choose accordingly.

~bella

 

[RDKirk]

A lot of white men are attracted to black women. There was a time when you didn't see it often. I think that began to change with my generation. There was more openness and curiosity on both sides. While I don't typically address racial differences this is an area where it can't be ignored. There's a difference between dating someone and marrying them. You have to be more discriminating when that's your goal.

Although I date interracially I don't believe it's the right thing for everyone. There's a lot of unspoken rules and you have to be able to navigate the cultural differences. While I don't want to generalize I think it bears mentioning nonetheless.

Some men are attracted to ethnicity. They want the difference. And some desire a white woman in a different hue. They want their ideal in that packaging. It's important they understand and know where they fall on that scale and choose accordingly.

~bella

It's not just sexual attraction I was talking about, and particularly not the fetishistic hypersexualization that black women had been subjected to.

I was specifically talking about young white men having posters of black women on their walls (or in their lockers). That is, the overt, public recognition of black women as standards of beauty.

 

[Tom8907]

How does God view it- he only looks at the sins of the individual.

Obsessing over something you didn't do isn't mentally or spiritually healthy.

 

[bèlla]

It's not just sexual attraction I was talking about, and particularly not the fetishistic hypersexualization that black women had been subjected to.

I was specifically talking about young white men having posters of black women on their walls (or in their lockers). That is, the overt, public recognition of black women as standards of beauty.

I didn't think you meant sexualization. Nor does my response suggest that either. When I mentioned ethnicity I'm referencing otherness. Not exotic curiosity but a genuine appreciation for difference.

When I say he wants a white woman I'm implying he desires qualities commonly associated with women who resemble him but he's attracted to other races. Their physical type is usually more euro centric. Whereas the other would welcome a woman with braids, dreads etc.

The Kardashians popularized the black aesthetic and women flocked to it in droves. They made slim-thick the ideal and that was the thing for 10 years. I'm not surprised they had posters. That's all they saw on social media and a lot of them listen to rap and hip-hop.

~bella

 

[RDKirk]

I didn't think you meant sexualization. Nor does my response suggest that either. When I mentioned ethnicity I'm referencing otherness. Not exotic curiosity but a genuine appreciation for difference.

When I say he wants a white woman I'm implying he desires qualities commonly associated with women who resemble him but he's attracted to other races. Their physical type is usually more euro centric. Whereas the other would welcome a woman with braids, dreads etc.

The Kardashians popularized the black aesthetic and women flocked to it in droves. They made slim-thick the ideal and that was the thing for 10 years. I'm not surprised they had posters. That's all they saw on social media and a lot of them listen to rap and hip-hop.

~bella

I'm talking about young white men today, and their significant numbers, who appreciate the natural beauty of unambiguously black women and are unashamed to display their appreciation. That is a new thing from 50 years ago.

 

[bèlla]

I'm talking about young white men today, and their significant numbers, who appreciate the natural beauty of unambiguously black women and are unashamed to display their appreciation. That is a new thing from 50 years ago.

I understand what you're saying but you're missing the point. We don't live the way you did 50 years ago. We have more interaction with different people and cultures than the majority encountered in the past. Whether that's through direct contact or the Internet the fact remains things have changed.

Our conception of attractiveness isn't limited to one group. We can see beauty in other races and value them. It's new for you because your experiences shaped your mindset. And you hail from a generation with stronger family units. The disintegration of the family has contributed to open-mindedness as has feminism, the assault on men and so on.

All of these factors are working together to create these scenarios. Consider the stat and you'll understand.

~bella

 

[timothyu]

I am enjoying both your viewpoints. Its how we learn.

 

[RDKirk]

I understand what you're saying but you're missing the point. We don't live the way you did 50 years ago. We have more interaction with different people and cultures than the majority encountered in the past. Whether that's through direct contact or the Internet the fact remains things have changed.

Our conception of attractiveness isn't limited to one group. We can see beauty in other races and value them. It's new for you because your experiences shaped your mindset. And you hail from a generation with stronger family units.

That is my point. I'm pointing out how different it is from 50 years ago.

But you said:

When I say he wants a white woman I'm implying he desires qualities commonly associated with women who resemble him but he's attracted to other races. Their physical type is usually more euro centric. Whereas the other would welcome a woman with braids, dreads etc.

I'm further pointing out that there are many young white men today who can see a woman of typically "African" appearance--not Euro-centric and not even as "exotic" in difference--but beautiful in her own right while at the same time seeing a more Euro-standard woman as also beautiful in her own right. Two "separate but equal" standards of beauty residing in one man's head. This is a fundamental difference of concept that has occurred in the last 50 years.

 

[timothyu]

Two "separate but equal" standards of beauty residing in one man's head.

That is how a photographer's mind works. Drawn, not to idiosyncrasies but to form

 

[bèlla]

That is my point. I'm pointing out how different it is from 50 years ago.

But you said:

I'm further pointing out that there are many young white men today who can see a woman of typically "African" appearance--not Euro-centric and not even as "exotic" in difference--but beautiful in her own right while at the same time seeing a more Euro-standard woman as also beautiful in her own right. Two "separate but equal" standards of beauty residing in one man's head. This is a fundamental difference of concept that has occurred in the last 50 years.

We're on the same page!

I included both because it isn't either or. And it may be a topic they haven't explored or had an opportunity to discuss beyond generalizations. That holds true for people of color as well. Many don't have these conversations at home. They bring their questions to friends and the Internet.

~bella

 

[bèlla]

That is how a photographer's mind works. Drawn, not to idiosyncrasies but to form

I see with a designers eye and notice more. If I say a woman is beautiful it's not because she's hot but rather a set of qualities that come together in a manner I find pleasing.

~bella