Symbolic sacraments only need apply ...

[Xeno.of.athens]

The Catholic Church teaches that the sacraments are more than just symbols; they are actual means of grace through which God's love and presence are made manifest in the lives of believers. The sacraments are not just symbolic representations of spiritual realities, but actual channels of God's grace and power.

A critique of the idea that the sacraments have only symbolic significance would argue that this view reduces the sacraments to mere human constructs and removes the transformative power of God from the equation. It fails to acknowledge the active role of God in the sacraments and the real change they can bring in the lives of believers.

Furthermore, a symbolic-only view of the sacraments would also imply that the sacraments are not necessary for salvation and that it is possible to have a meaningful relationship with God without them. This is contradictory to the Catholic Church's teaching that the sacraments are necessary for salvation and that they are a means of grace that helps believers to grow in their faith and relationship with God.

Finally, a symbolic-only view of the sacraments would also fail to take into account the objective nature of the sacraments. The sacraments are not dependent on the subjective experience of the individual receiving them; they are effective regardless of the disposition of the person receiving them.

In summary, a Catholic critique of the idea that the sacraments have only symbolic significance would argue that this view undermines the actual power of God in the sacraments, the necessity of them for salvation and the objective nature of the sacraments.

 

[Clare73]

The Catholic Church teaches that the sacraments are more than just symbols; they are actual means of grace through which God's love and presence are made manifest in the lives of believers. The sacraments are not just symbolic representations of spiritual realities, but actual channels of God's grace and power.
A critique of the idea that the sacraments have only symbolic significance would argue that this view reduces the sacraments to mere human constructs and removes the transformative power of God from the equation. It fails to acknowledge the active role of God in the sacraments and the real change they can bring in the lives of believers.

Furthermore, a symbolic-only view of the sacraments would also imply that the sacraments are not necessary for salvation and that it is possible to have a meaningful relationship with God without them. This is contradictory to the Catholic Church's teaching that the sacraments are necessary for salvation and that they are a means of grace that helps believers to grow in their faith and relationship with God.

However, NT apostolic teaching does not present sacraments as necessary in the Christian life of salvation, while it does present faith, dealing with sin, and obedience in the Holy Spirit to righteousness as necessary in the Christian life of salvation.
EDIT: Deleted parenthetical.

Finally, a symbolic-only view of the sacraments would also fail to take into account the objective nature of the sacraments. The sacraments are not dependent on the subjective experience of the individual receiving them; they are effective regardless of the disposition of the person receiving them.

In summary, a Catholic critique of the idea that the sacraments have only symbolic significance would argue that this view undermines the actual power of God in the sacraments, the necessity of them for salvation and the objective nature of the sacraments.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

However, NT apostolic teaching does not present sacraments as necessary in the Christian life of salvation, while it does present faith, dealing with sin, and obedience in the Holy Spirit (including to baptism, to the Lord's Supper) to righteousness as necessary in the Christian life of salvation.

The Catholic Church teaches that the sacraments are necessary for salvation because they are the means by which God's grace is made available to believers. This is rooted in scripture, with several passages that support the idea of the sacraments as necessary for salvation.

One of the most clear scriptural references is in the Gospel of John, where Jesus says, "Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (John 3:5). This passage is often understood to refer to the sacrament of Baptism, which is seen as the gateway to the other sacraments and to salvation.

Another key passage is in the First Letter of Paul to the Corinthians, where Paul writes, "For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes" (1 Corinthians 11:26). This passage is often understood to refer to the sacrament of the Eucharist, which is seen as the source and summit of the Christian life.

In addition, the Catholic Church also teaches that the sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation is necessary for salvation. Jesus said to his disciples, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained" (John 20:22-23). This passage is understood to refer to the sacrament of Reconciliation which is necessary for forgiveness of sins.

Lastly, the sacrament of Anointing of the Sick is also seen as necessary for salvation as it brings spiritual and even physical healing to the sick person. In James 5:14-15 it is written "Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven."

In conclusion, the Catholic Church teaches that the sacraments are necessary for salvation because they are the means by which God's grace is made available to believers, and this teaching is rooted in scriptural references.

 

[Philip_B]

In conclusion, the Catholic Church teaches that the sacraments are necessary for salvation because they are the means by which God's grace is made available to believers, and this teaching is rooted in scriptural references.

I suspect what you are saying here is that they are the only means by which God's grace is made available.

As an Anglican, I would typically distinguish between the Dominical Sacraments and those commonly called sacraments, though not to diminish them in any way. In many ways, I prefer the notion that all of life is sacramental, rather than fencing God into two five or seven. I suspect that God and Church may be bigger than we think.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I suspect what you are saying here is that they are the only means by which God's grace is made available.

The Catholic Church teaches that the means of grace are the ways in which God communicates His grace to humanity. These include the sacraments, prayer, and good works.

-Sacraments: The Catholic Church recognizes seven sacraments as means of grace: baptism, confirmation, eucharist, penance, anointing of the sick, holy orders, and matrimony.

Scripture references: -Baptism: John 3:5, Romans 6:4, Colossians 2:12, 1 Peter 3:21 -Confirmation: Acts 8:14-17, Hebrews 6:2 -Eucharist: John 6:51-58, 1 Corinthians 11:23-29 -Penance: John 20:22-23, James 5:16 -Anointing of the sick: James 5:14-15 -Holy orders: 1 Timothy 3:1-13, Titus 1:5-9 -Matrimony: Ephesians 5:21-33

-Prayer: Catholics believe that prayer is a means of grace because it helps us to draw closer to God and to receive His grace.

Scripture references:

• Matthew 6:9-13,
• 1 Thessalonians 5:17
• James 5:16

-Good Works: Catholics believe that good works are a means of grace because they help us to receive God's grace and to grow in holiness.
Scripture references:

• Ephesians 2:8-10,
• James 2:14-26
• 1 Peter 2:12

It's important to note that these are not the only scriptural references that pertain to the means of grace, but they are a sample of the scriptural basis for the Catholic belief in the means of grace.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

However, NT apostolic teaching does not present sacraments as necessary in the Christian life of salvation, while it does present faith, dealing with sin, and obedience in the Holy Spirit (including to baptism, to the Lord's Supper) to righteousness as necessary in the Christian life of salvation.

This is double speak. Sacraments not necessary in the Christian life but obedience to be baptized is necessary. Well, which is it?

I see this "double speak" all the time on the internet. Take nearly any article "Is baptism necessary?" The first 90% in these articles will state it is not necessary. Then the last 10% of the article states you HAVE to be baptized because it is Christ's command. American evangelicalism mantra here is: 'YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE BAPTIZED, BUT YOU HAVE TO BE BAPTIZED." Classic double speak which only leads to confusion.

 

[Clare73]

This is double speak. Sacraments not necessary in the Christian life but obedience to be baptized is necessary. Well, which is it?

I see this "double speak" all the time on the internet. Take nearly any article "Is baptism necessary?" The first 90% in these articles will state it is not necessary. Then the last 10% of the article states you HAVE to be baptized because it is Christ's command. American evangelicalism mantra here is: 'YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE BAPTIZED, BUT YOU HAVE TO BE BAPTIZED." Classic double speak which only leads to confusion.

You are misunderstanding necessary for salvation vs. obedience of the Christian life.

First of all, are there only two sacraments in Catholicism?

Secondly, are baptism and the Lord's Supper necessary in the Christian life for salvation? (No)
Are the other Catholic sacraments necessary in the Christian life for salvation? (No)
Is dealing with your sin in sanctification to holiness necessary in the Christian life for salvation? (Yes, Heb 12:14).

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

First of all, are there only two sacraments in Catholicism?

In Catholicism there are 7 sacraments. One need not participate in all 7. It is, in fact, incompatible for one to participate in marriage and orders if one is still married, this is a current restriction and may be changed.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

You are misunderstanding necessary for salvation vs. obedience of the Christian life.

You are making a distinction where no distinction exists. I will explain this.

Secondly, are baptism and the Lord's Supper necessary in the Christian life for salvation? (No)

I will thread this needle a little finer.

I shall confine my statements to only baptism, as it is done only once in the life of the believer. The Lord's Supper is repetitive.

Baptism is necessary to salvation because the Word of God requires it. For whatever Jesus has instituted and commanded it is to be done. Because God's binds us to be baptized, IT IS NECESSARY FOR SALVATION.

Having said that, Baptism is not absolutely necessary for salvation because the way God instituted it. Certain persons by definition are excluded from being baptized. The unborn. If were baptism were absolutely necessary for salvation, all unborn who die before birth would be excluded from salvation.

But while God binds us to observe being baptized, God does not bind Himself to baptism as he does other redemptive events.

WHAT IS ESSENTIAL AND ABSOLUTELY INDISPENSABLE FOR SALVATION IS THAT CHRIST SHOULD DIE for us. THIS GOD HAS BOUND HIMSELF TO. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission and can be no remission of sins. Salvation is impossible without Christ’s sacrifice.

God has not bound himself to baptism in the same way he binds himself to the Atonement. God binds us to be baptized but it is not absolute where baptism is impossible to be administered. The unborn are a prime example of the impossibility of the administration of baptism. Wherever baptism is offered, the Christian is baptized. This is NT teaching.

However, no Christian can take credit for baptism. In baptism, the recipient is purely passive. The NT allows no person to baptize themselves. Baptism is completely unlike all other prescriptions in Scripture and can not be fulfilled under the umbrella of a Christian's individual sanctification. The Lord's Supper can be individually practiced in sanctification as the Christian is commanded to be active...."Take eat" and "Take drink."

The necessity of baptism is not absolute but ordinary. The ordinary way the Christian life is lived is by being baptized. All Christians are baptized with no exceptions. This is the normal pattern. Baptism is not optional for the believer, and there is no such thing in the NT as an unbaptized believer.

True faith always results in baptism.

However, outright rejection of baptism in tantamount to rejection of God himself, thus no true faith can really be present. Outright rejection of Christ’s command is willful rejection of the Holy Spirit, since baptism promises the Holy Spirit as a gift. It is rebellion against God and his Word. This is rank unbelief.

We should always publicly teach that Baptism is necessary for salvation except in cases where Baptism is impossible to be administered.

The Christian should NEVER think that Baptism is not necessary for Christian life as the gift of the Holy Spirit is contained within.

 

[Clare73]

You are making a distinction where no distinction exists. I will explain this.

I will thread this needle a little finer.

I shall confine my statements to only baptism, as it is done only once in the life of the believer. The Lord's Supper is repetitive.

Baptism is necessary to salvation because the Word of God requires it. For whatever Jesus has instituted and commanded it is to be done. Because God's binds us to be baptized, IT IS NECESSARY FOR SALVATION.

Having said that, Baptism is not absolutely necessary for salvation because the way God instituted it. Certain persons by definition are excluded from being baptized. The unborn. If were baptism were absolutely necessary for salvation, all unborn who die before birth would be excluded from salvation.

But while God binds us to observe being baptized, God does not bind Himself to baptism as he does other redemptive events.

So, like the thief on the cross, baptism is not necessary for salvation.

WHAT IS ESSENTIAL AND ABSOLUTELY INDISPENSABLE FOR SALVATION IS THAT CHRIST SHOULD DIE for us. THIS GOD HAS BOUND HIMSELF TO. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission and can be no remission of sins. Salvation is impossible without Christ’s sacrifice.

God has not bound himself to baptism in the same way he binds himself to the Atonement. God binds us to be baptized but it is not absolute where baptism is impossible to be administered. The unborn are a prime example of the impossibility of the administration of baptism. Wherever baptism is offered, the Christian is baptized. This is NT teaching.

However, no Christian can take credit for baptism. In baptism, the recipient is purely passive. The NT allows no person to baptize themselves. Baptism is completely unlike all other prescriptions in Scripture and can not be fulfilled under the umbrella of a Christian's individual sanctification. The Lord's Supper can be individually practiced in sanctification as the Christian is commanded to be active...."Take eat" and "Take drink."

The necessity of baptism is not absolute but ordinary. The ordinary way the Christian life is lived is by being baptized. All Christians are baptized with no exceptions. This is the normal pattern. Baptism is not optional for the believer, and there is no such thing in the NT as an unbaptized believer.

True faith always results in baptism.

However, outright rejection of baptism in tantamount to rejection of God himself, thus no true faith can really be present. Outright rejection of Christ’s command is willful rejection of the Holy Spirit, since baptism promises the Holy Spirit as a gift. It is rebellion against God and his Word. This is rank unbelief.

We should always publicly teach that Baptism is necessary for salvation except in cases where Baptism is impossible to be administered.

The Christian should NEVER think that Baptism is not necessary for Christian life as the gift of the Holy Spirit is contained within.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

So, like the thief on the cross, baptism is not necessary for salvation.

Clare,

This statement is way beneath your intelligence and knowledge of Scripture.

It is impossible for the thief to be baptized! Why?

Jesus instituted christian baptism AFTER his resurrection but before his ascension. The first Christian baptisms occurred some 53 days AFTER the thief's death. It is impossible for the thief to have a Christian baptism. Christian baptism didn't exist at the time of the thief's death.

You should know this.

To say that the thief wasn't baptized, like saying King David wasn't baptized. Or Ezra or Nehemiah wasn't baptized.

 

[Clare73]

Clare,

This statement is way beneath your intelligence and knowledge of Scripture.

It is impossible for the thief to be baptized! Why?

Jesus instituted christian baptism AFTER his resurrection but before his ascension.

Salvation was "instituted" by the death of Christ.

Was it impossible for the thief to be saved before the death of Christ?

 

[The Liturgist]

However, NT apostolic teaching does not present sacraments as necessary in the Christian life of salvation,

The Eucharist is described by our Lord as entirely necessary in John chapter 6.

Also by the way, you are aware I would assume that John Calvin rejected the idea the sacraments were symbolic? He considered our Lord spiritually and dynamically present in the Eucharist, for example. It was Zwingli who regarded the sacraments as symbols or signs of an inward grace.

 

[The Liturgist]

Salvation was "instituted" by the death of Christ.

Was it impossible for the thief to be saved before the death of Christ?

No, because of the principle of the Baptism of Blood, by which the Holy Innocents were saved.

Also on rare specific occasions, God provided for direct access to Heaven, for instance, to Elijah.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Was it impossible for the thief to be saved before the death of Christ?

The listing of the hero's of faith in Hebrews 11 answers that: By faith as all others in the OT.

 

[Philip_B]

The Catholic Church teaches that the means of grace are the ways in which God communicates His grace to humanity. These include the sacraments, prayer, and good works.

-Sacraments: The Catholic Church recognizes seven sacraments as means of grace: baptism, confirmation, eucharist, penance, anointing of the sick, holy orders, and matrimony.

Scripture references: -Baptism: John 3:5, Romans 6:4, Colossians 2:12, 1 Peter 3:21 -Confirmation: Acts 8:14-17, Hebrews 6:2 -Eucharist: John 6:51-58, 1 Corinthians 11:23-29 -Penance: John 20:22-23, James 5:16 -Anointing of the sick: James 5:14-15 -Holy orders: 1 Timothy 3:1-13, Titus 1:5-9 -Matrimony: Ephesians 5:21-33

-Prayer: Catholics believe that prayer is a means of grace because it helps us to draw closer to God and to receive His grace.

Scripture references:

• Matthew 6:9-13,
• 1 Thessalonians 5:17
• James 5:16

-Good Works: Catholics believe that good works are a means of grace because they help us to receive God's grace and to grow in holiness.
Scripture references:

• Ephesians 2:8-10,
• James 2:14-26
• 1 Peter 2:12

It's important to note that these are not the only scriptural references that pertain to the means of grace, but they are a sample of the scriptural basis for the Catholic belief in the means of grace.

I don't dispute any of this, however, you did not address the main issue of my post. I, for one, am not questioning the efficacy of sacraments, nor that they are to be desired, nor that they are a means of grace.

 

[hedrick]

The term symbolic sacrament needs unpacking. I believe the sacraments are means of grace. But I think the elements are outward, symbolic, representations of what is happening in them. This is not a purely symbolic sacrament.

This is roughly a Reformed view, though Calvin had a peculiar twist on communion that may not be represented here.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I don't dispute any of this, however, you did not address the main issue of my post. I, for one, am not questioning the efficacy of sacraments, nor that they are to be desired, nor that they are a means of grace.

I had hoped that prayer and good works would be recognised as means of grace that are not sacraments and that seemed to be what you were asking about.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

As an Anglican, I would typically distinguish between the Dominical Sacraments and those commonly called sacraments, though not to diminish them in any way. In many ways, I prefer the notion that all of life is sacramental, rather than fencing God into two five or seven. I suspect that God and Church may be bigger than we think.

The term "Dominical sacraments" is not commonly used in the Catholic Church. Instead, the sacraments are divided into three categories: sacraments of initiation (baptism, confirmation, and Eucharist), sacraments of healing (penance and anointing of the sick), and sacraments of service (holy orders and matrimony).

Is it possible that the term "Dominical sacraments" is used by other Christian denominations or religions to mean sacraments that are directly instituted by Jesus Christ, as opposed to those that have been created by the Church? It is not a standard term in the Catholic Church.

 

[Philip_B]

The term "Dominical sacraments" is not commonly used in the Catholic Church. Instead, the sacraments are divided into three categories: sacraments of initiation (baptism, confirmation, and Eucharist), sacraments of healing (penance and anointing of the sick), and sacraments of service (holy orders and matrimony).

Is it possible that the term "Dominical sacraments" is used by other Christian denominations or religions to mean sacraments that are directly instituted by Jesus Christ, as opposed to those that have been created by the Church? It is not a standard term in the Catholic Church.

Yeah, I get that.

There are two Sacraments ordained of Christ our Lord in the Gospel, that is to say, Baptism, and the Supper of the Lord. Article 25​

The two do stand in contrast to the others, however, beyond that I would not see them limiting the appropriation of grace or the means of grace.

Matthew Ayariga of course is a case in point.