Suicide; Where do you end up?

[mtn_esker]

Look at the Jews at Masada.

Perhaps things arent quite as black and white as we think.

God Bless, metal.

amen.

amen.

<3

 

[Treasure the Questions]

Perhaps before debating the theological aspects of suicide people need to understand why people commit suicide.

Usually it is because the person is clinically depressed and this is an illness and may well be caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain.

You can no more expect a depressed person to be able to have deep faith than you can expect a man with a broken leg to run any distance.

Thankfully God understands this and will not condemn people for lack of faith when they are not capable of having much if any faith.

Often a depressed person feels very alone and that there is no hope. Quoting the Bible is not usually useful at this stage. I know because I was in such a place for a few days last year and my pastor tried to help me by reading from Scripture. I knew he meant well, and he is a gentle man, so I wasn't offended, but it was his presence and the fact he showed he cared that helped me. I could hardly take in what he was actually saying.

When your head is filled with cotton wool its hard to hold on to God, and if you do, it is only by a very fragile thread.

Take care not to break anyone's fragile thread by what you post here.

Karin

 

[porcupine]

I didn't think I had to spell it out! If you are not thinking straight, then whatever anyone says to you either doesn't reach your ears, or goes in one side and rapidly out the other. If you have got to the point of seriously considering suicide then whether someone else thinks it acceptable or not is neither here nor there.

If you go to someone and ask if a suicide goes to hell or not, then you are asking for help. To be told yes, you will go to hell, when you consider you are already in hell, is no help. Love, compassion, practical advice and even actually taking that person to medical assistance is of far more use.

Theological discussion can come later.

Maccie

If you are dealing with a Christian or not, the discussion is not "theological" but more practical than anything else you can discuss. Their eternal fate is much more important (and pssibly imminant) that anything else. No one is saying not to have love and compassion or to use other kinds of assistance. I've dealt with suicides myself. However, it is loving to warn the person.

People considering suicide DO hear what people are saying -- especialy those who confirm in some way that suicide will actually solve the problem by sending them into the arms of Jesus.

Suicide is motivated in different people by many different things. If you assume that depression is the major cause, you had better take a closer look. Just as many people suicide out of SPITE. Careful reading of suicide messages makes this clear. For many it is selfishmess; for others it is an unwillingness to endure difficulty.

For anyone to post anything here that would remotely be interpreted as saying suicide will be the gateway to Heaven is irresponsible at best.

 

[porcupine]

Look at the Jews at Masada.

Perhaps things arent quite as black and white as we think.

God Bless, metal.

Yes, let us look at them. Where are they now? Heaven or Hell?

Now look at the Christians who became martyrs under the same emperor. Where are THEY now?

 

[SPALATIN]

A former pastor in a church I attended committed suicide. It was tragic for his witness, family and church family. He was a high profile pastor as well. It is indeed a serious sin to take your own life, for that right belongs to God alone. However, if you have a saving relationship to the Lord suicide will not separate you from Him. It is not the unforgiveable sin in the sight of God.

May I ask for what denomination did he serve? Is it possible that he felt that the truth he had been preaching was a lie (not that it was, but that he felt it was.) Or did he suffer from Bi-Polar illness?

 

[Treasure the Questions]

If you are dealing with a Christian or not, the discussion is not "theological" but more practical than anything else you can discuss. Their eternal fate is much more important (and pssibly imminant) that anything else. No one is saying not to have love and compassion or to use other kinds of assistance. I've dealt with suicides myself. However, it is loving to warn the person.

People considering suicide DO hear what people are saying -- especialy those who confirm in some way that suicide will actually solve the problem by sending them into the arms of Jesus.

Suicide is motivated in different people by many different things. If you assume that depression is the major cause, you had better take a closer look. Just as many people suicide out of SPITE. Careful reading of suicide messages makes this clear. For many it is selfishmess; for others it is an unwillingness to endure difficulty.

For anyone to post anything here that would remotely be interpreted as saying suicide will be the gateway to Heaven is irresponsible at best.

I understand what you are saying, Porcupine.

The thing is that God judges the motives of the person as well as their faith, and there are many things that He knows that we cannot.

So the short answer to Suicide; Where do you end up? is we cannot know for sure and it depends in each individual case.

To try to say more certainly is to presume to know what we cannot know.

Perhaps some people commit suicide in a cool and calculating manner, although I find it hard to believe.

When you say,

for others it is an unwillingness to endure difficulty.

this may not be as clear cut as it seems. It may be that depression makes all seem dark and without hope.

To simply say it is selfishness or an unwillingness to endure difficulty suggests you do not truly understand the situation. If you are right then there must be some other reason why such people hold their lives in such low esteem.

While I wouldn't encourage anyone to think that suicide is the easy way out that will be the fast route to heaven, I think it is equally wrong to tell people they are sinful and are likely to end up in hell when they are at rock bottom in their lives and feel totally worthless, and I maintain that most people who are suicidal do fell this way. As they are most likely to be depressed and depression is a mental illness then what they write in suicide notes will not necessarily express their true feelings, but feelings that have been warped and twisted by their illness.

People who feel suicidal need to be lifted to the Lord in loving prayer and they need expert medical help. The do not need to be judged, not to have someone moralise. This sort of thing may well have made them depressed and suicidal in the first place.

You say you have dealt with suicides your self, Porcupine, but how can you be sure you dealt with them correctly.

I have also dealt with someone who was depressed and potentially suicidal. It took months of encouragement and support to help him. I am quite certain that to tell him his thoughts and feelings were sinful would have driven him nearer the edge. He felt bad enough already thanks to the way some churchgoers had treated him.

Karin

 

[porcupine]

I understand what you are saying, Porcupine.

The thing is that God judges the motives of the person as well as their faith, and there are many things that He knows that we cannot.

Yes. And one thing we cannot know for sure is that ANY of them end up in Heaven.

So the short answer to Suicide; Where do you end up? is we cannot know for sure and it depends in each individual case.

To try to say more certainly is to presume to know what we cannot know.

We are even more presumptuous to think that someone may "safely" commit suicide.

some people commit suicide in a cool and calculating manner, although I find it hard to believe.

Believe what you want. I've seen it.

u say, this may not be as clear cut as it seems. It may be that depression makes all seem dark and without hope.

To simply say it is selfishness or an unwillingness to endure difficulty suggests you do not truly understand the situation. If you are right then there must be some other reason why such people hold their lives in such low esteem.

Give me scripture to support your contention.

You are probably looking at the result of many years of sin. The fact that they feel low now might have been something that is their own fault.

wouldn't encourage anyone to think that suicide is the easy way out that will be the fast route to heaven, I think it is equally wrong to tell people they are sinful and are likely to end up in hell when they are at rock bottom in their lives and feel totally worthless, and I maintain that most people who are suicidal do fell this way. As they are most likely to be depressed and depression is a mental illness then what they write in suicide notes will not necessarily express their true feelings, but feelings that have been warped and twisted by their illness.

You should try reading "The Myth of Neuroses"

People who feel suicidal need to be lifted to the Lord in loving prayer and they need expert medical help. The do not need to be judged, not to have someone moralise. This sort of thing may well have made them depressed and suicidal in the first place.

Scripture tells us to call the elder who will pray for the sick and if there be any sin they can receive forgiveness. In order to do thsi we MUS "moralise" -- i.e., confront sin.

You say you have dealt with suicides your self, Porcupine, but how can you be sure you dealt with them correctly.

They are alive.

I have also dealt with someone who was depressed and potentially suicidal. It took months of encouragement and support to help him. I am quite certain that to tell him his thoughts and feelings were sinful would have driven him nearer the edge. He felt bad enough already thanks to the way some churchgoers had treated him.

Karin

So you have a person you talked out of suicide who still hasn't dealt with his sin? That is spiritual suicide.

 

[Treasure the Questions]

There is more to life than what can be found in the Bible, Porcupine, and if you don't study people as well as the Good Book you end up with a very warped and blinkered view of the world, which is not good for you or the people you meet.

​

​

Karin​

 

[Maccie]

If any seriously ill person with depression, - Yes, Porcupine, it is an illness, not the result of sin, whatever you might say, stumbled across this thread, I think it would probably tip them right over the edge. It would certainly put them off seeking any sort of help from a Christian.

I have never heard such a cold and calculating reply as yours, Porcupine.

I think the Moderators should shut this thread down.

Maccie

 

[Treasure the Questions]

So you have a person you talked out of suicide who still hasn't dealt with his sin? That is spiritual suicide.

Firstly you have read more into my post than I wrote and then you dare slander a person you have never met. He is one of the most sincere Christians I know and he continually "deals with his sin".

Karin

 

[hola]

I didn't see anyone mention this so I will just throw it in...

King Saul committed suicide. (1 Samuel 31:4-5). I don't think he was right with God when he did.

I also think of John 10:10:
"The thief cometh not, but for the steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."

When I think of any kind of murder or killing (which I believe suicide is such), I think that it is just an act in agreement with the devil/thief.

Now, please...let's not argue over God killing others in the Bible or such things as that...there were reasons for that.

It's just Satan's attitude towards humanity...he hates us humans and would rather have us dead...in any sense of the word.

What good for a dying world would it be for a Christian to kill themself, and not to spend at least his last moments of their life glorifying God or reaching out to lost souls...and using every opportunity that they had? I don't think anyone concerned with lost souls would want to die if they wanted to reach out to others who are lost...it may be the last thing that they would want to do if they had a true love for the lost and wanted to do anything that they could in order to lead others to salvation.

I know that others would rather depart and be with the Lord...having no concern for the lost. And others would want to die because it is far better to be with the Lord and this life can be so difficult. (I'm not trying to bring us into a different discussion which would be about if one goes right to heaven at the moment of their death).

God bless.

 

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Suicide is definitely of Satan. God so desperately loves us that He gave His only begotten Son for us. The eternal fate of someone who commits suicide cannot be known by us. However, I will say that the desire to take one's life is a very selfish sin (as most sin is). But, I do agree with what many have said here about mental illness. I have experience in the counseling field, and I would estimate that probably 90% or more of people who commit suicide, or attempt it, are mentally ill. God, who is mercful and loves mankind--His most cherished creation--will not fail to show mercy to a sick person who was not able to have rational thought at the time of their death. I have had a friend, a grandparent, and a cousin who have committed suicide. The friend had a severe case of Bipolar Disorder which was treatment resistant (no medication seemed to work). My grandfather had been mentally unstable and an alcoholic for years before he finally gave up on life. And for my cousin it was a similar situation. It is for God alone to decide their eternal fate, but I know He is merciful.

I don't want to offend anyone by saying this, but I feel it should be said. I pray that no one will be under the delusion that suicide is an escape from a life of pain. It isn't. I believe it is something a person will have to deal with in one way or another in the afterlife. If you are in a painful life situation, trust in the mercy of God, for He has put you in it for a reason. Our Heavenly Father is the Great Physician, whereas satan seeks to kill, steal, and destroy. Which one would you want to obey?

 

[Maccie]

is something a person will have to deal with in one way or another in the afterlife. If you are in a painful life situation, trust in the mercy of God, for He has put you in it for a reason. Our Heavenly Father is the Great Physician, whereas satan seeks to kill, steal, and destroy. Which one would you want to obey?

This sort of remark is of no help to someone seriously considering suicide. Rational thought is not on their mind.

I was hoping this thread would just die.

Moderators - could you consider closing this thread? It is not helpful to those with mental illness and could do considerable damage.

Maccie

 

[porcupine]

This sort of remark is of no help to someone seriously considering suicide. Rational thought is not on their mind.
Maccie

Maccie, you keep saying this. What would you offer them, IRRATIONAL thought? Sappy sentimentalism? False hopes?

 

[Maccie]

I know I keep saying it. I intend to. I would offer a listening ear, compassion, and advice to go to the Dr. If necessary I would take them there.

Only when they were feeling better, and able to think a bit more rationally, would I talk about what it means to commit suicide.

AND I STILL THINK ITS TIME THE MODERATORS CLOSED THIS THREAD.

Maccie

 

[porcupine]

I know I keep saying it. I intend to. I would offer a listening ear, compassion, and advice to go to the Dr. If necessary I would take them there.

Only when they were feeling better, and able to think a bit more rationally, would I talk about what it means to commit suicide.

AND I STILL THINK ITS TIME THE MODERATORS CLOSED THIS THREAD.

Maccie

What do you mean by "compassion"? Sitting around "listening" while they reiterate all the reasons why it is a good idea for them to kill themselves?

"Advice to go to the Dr."? I thought you said that rational discourse would not get through?

You make no sense, Maccie.

 

[Carl Carlson]

If an irrational person considering suicide was on Christian Forum checking out the threads, then perhaps they could understand sound Biblical wisdom. Something must have brought them to that site. Right?

What God's Spirit wants to reveal to us....

 

[Maccie]

I am not interested in discussing this matter any longer. None of you seem to understand the word "compassion" or "love". You would rather be pedantic and picky.


We are discussing hurting people, in desperate situations. I prefer to approach the problem with love. You would rather be cold, comfortless and pedantic. That is your choice.

Maccie

 

[Lotar]

The lack of compassion that some "christians" have amazes me to no end...

 

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

If an irrational person considering suicide was on Christian Forum checking out the threads, then perhaps they could understand sound Biblical wisdom. Something must have brought them to that site. Right?

What God's Spirit wants to reveal to us....

This is exactly why I said what I said. I am a person who has struggled with clinical depression for years. If someone were to the point of being suicidal, and had already made up their mind about it, they would not be in here participating in CF discussions. I'm talking from person experience.

I have been through COUNTLESS anti-depressant medications and years of counseling. These avenues do work for many people, so I would definitely recommend a depressed person seek professional help. However, I am one of the people whom neither of those things do a whole lot for. I remain on medication just to keep me from becoming so bad that I can't function (a place I've been before). But the thing that changed my mind about suicide once and for all was this:

1. Depression, though it feels like hell, can be a gift of God. That's right. Crying out to God in your misery can be a very good thing. You cannot truly relate to the pain of others until you experience it yourself.

2. Knowing how great and vast and uncomprehensable is the love of God for all mankind. In western society, we tend to equate God's love with how good we feel or how many good things we have going on in our lives. That is erroneous! God does not guarantee a candy-coated life. As a matter of fact, He told us we would have pain and suffering.

If you know someone truly depressed, reach out to them! Any good counselor will tell you that if most of their clients had adequate social support, they wouldn't even need to be in counseling. I am not condemning anyone who has depression or feels suicidal at times. I've been there! Another thing that turned me around spiritually is when my priest mentioned how despondency is a grave sin against God. When we become despondent, we refuse the love and mercy of God--which is what happens when someone wants to kill themselves. A rejection of life is a rejection of the Giver of all Life.