'Star Wars' Fans Upset 'Rogue One' Has Another Female Lead

PreachersWife2004

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...By having a protagonist that isn't a straight white cis man?

Using buzzwords means nothing. Just say white male. We know what you mean.

The idea that a movie can't have a white male lead is ridiculous, but that's the general idea here. So a movie is considered "forward thinking" if it has anything BUT a white male as a lead. Again, ridiculous. And Star Wars has merely fallen prey to the groupthink.

Han and Luke were clearly the leads while Leia played a very strong second. Every guy in the universe probably has fantasized at one point in time or another about Leia and her Jabba slave suit.

I'm just calling a spade a spade here. If this movie had a male lead, the feminists would be having a conniption fit. It's somehow bad to have a white lead now.
 
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PreachersWife2004

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I thought Star Wars had always been filled with strong female leads, including the unofficial cannon of the expanded universe. I'm not even a real fan and I knew that. I'm shocked, shocked I say!

It's been filled with strong females but not necessarily strong female leads.
 
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The Cadet

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Using buzzwords means nothing. Just say white male. We know what you mean.

And yet, if the lead of Episode 7 was transsexual or homosexual white man, I reckon we'd be having the exact same conversation, in largely the same terms. It matters. Diversity matters, intersectional* or not, and referring to those terms as "buzzwords" when they are in fact very useful terms to describe very real phenomenon (or do you have a better term to use for someone whose gender aligns with their sex?) is just downright silly. It's like objecting to being called cisgendered because of some misguided PC crap - my only response there is "what a cissy*".

*okay, these ones are buzzwords :p

The idea that a movie can't have a white male lead is ridiculous, but that's the general idea here.

Really? Who was protesting Pacific Rim, a movie with a straight white cisgendered male lead? Who was protesting Captain America, a movie with a straight white cisgendered male lead? Who was protesting Thor, a movie with a straight white cisgendered male lead*? Who was protesting Transformers, a movie with a straight white cisgendered male lead? Well, Transformers fans, because the movies were terrible and why the heck is the movie of a franchise about giant robots who transform into cars mostly about Shia LeBoring's attempts to bone a human real doll, but you get the idea.

*Racists who objected to the character of Heimdall being played by a black guy, that's who! But not a lot of feminists.

People, by and large, aren't complaining about movies having whitebread protagonists. The complaint is that almost all movies have whitebread protagonists. That if you think "action movie hero", the immediate default setting is a straight white cisgendered man, to the point where having movies with female protagonists feels like a novelty. I mean, let's be clear here - this entire thread is about star wars fans who are upset that the lead in the next star wars movie is a woman again, and we've had some pretty clear-headed people, yourself included, complaining about that. Why? Why is it such a bizarre concept for an action movie to have a female lead?

So a movie is considered "forward thinking" if it has anything BUT a white male as a lead. Again, ridiculous.

It should be ridiculous. But it's a thing, because it is still a novelty for action movies to have female or black or gay or trans protagonists. If there weren't several dozen Thors and Jurassic Parks for every Salt or Lucy, it wouldn't be considered such a novelty when there's a female lead. But it is, so there are.

I'm just calling a spade a spade here. If this movie had a male lead, the feminists would be having a conniption fit. It's somehow bad to have a white lead now.

See, given that there are actually quite a lot of movies with white, male leads in recent memory that "the feminists" (whatever that's supposed to mean) didn't get mad about, I'm gonna have to say you're probably wrong. And most of the movies I did see feminists getting mad about, they got mad about for entirely reasonable reasons, typically unrelated to the gender of the main protagonists. For example, feminists got really mad about Pixels, but that wasn't because Adam Sandler is a straight white guy, but because at the end of the movie, they use a female character (who exists pretty much just as eye candy) as a literal trophy for one of the protagonists. That, and because everyone should be mad that Adam Sandler still gets paid to make the movie equivalent of advanced testicular cancer.

No, the problem is not any individual movie. The problem is the aggregate. The problem is that when a movie like "Lucy" starts with a premise, "Solo female lead in major action blockbuster", you can already say, "Wow, haven't seen that recently!", while absolutely nobody bats an eye at a white male lead. And that is a bit of a problem.
 
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PreachersWife2004

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Cadet, you probably posted something with the #oscarssowhite hashtag, didn't you?

It's just hollywood. Putting that much thought into who stars in a movie is ludicrous. I got blasted because I thought James Bond should stay white, but also said I'd accept Indiris because it's hollywood and they can do whatever they want. And that means making movies with non-gay, totally white, man's man leading men. After all, I'm betting those are the ones who do well at the box office and for that you can only blame the ones going to see them.

Personally, I haven't stepped foot in a movie theatre in 6 years.
 
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The Cadet

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Cadet, you probably posted something with the #oscarssowhite hashtag, didn't you?

It's just hollywood. Putting that much thought into who stars in a movie is ludicrous.

You hear that, everyone who's upset that Star Wars has another female actor playing the lead role? You hear that, whoever said this?

"I think it's more that it feels like star wars is just catering to the cultural masses."​

Maybe they just cast the role female because the actress made a really good case for it.

And that means making movies with non-gay, totally white, man's man leading men. After all, I'm betting those are the ones who do well at the box office and for that you can only blame the ones going to see them.

First of all, let's be clear here - a male lead is not a secret formula for success. Looking at the recent box office duds list from Wikipedia, of the most recent bunch, the only ones with female leads are Tomorrowland and Jupiter Awakening. Meanwhile, Salt, Lucy, The Hunger Games, Twilight (it has a female lead, it counts for this list), 50 Shades of Grey (again: female lead, aimed predominately at women), Star Wars 7, Mad Max Fury Road, Spy, Kill Bill, and I could probably go on for quite some time - were not just successful, but hugely successful with strong female leads. And it's not like there's some lack of outcry for a Black Widow movie, either. If Marvel figured out how to make it, it would make tons of money.

Movies that pass the Bechdel Test make more money, on average.

In the last decade, movies with female leads have been not just making more money on average, they've been making waaaaay more money on average!

This is "conventional wisdom" in the same way "women don't play video games" is conventional wisdom: it's unwise, sexist garbage that is perpetrated by people who believe it and surprisingly resilient to correction. You know what the real reason for the lack of female leads in movies is? Sexism. Pure and simple.
 
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trunks2k

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This is "conventional wisdom" in the same way "women don't play video games" is conventional wisdom: it's unwise, sexist garbage that is perpetrated by people who believe it and surprisingly resilient to correction.
Wasn't there a shortage of Rey toys from the most recent Star Wars because the toy execs "knew" that nobody would want to by toys for a female character? The Force Awakens themed Monopoly game didn't even HAVE a Rey piece.
 
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The Cadet

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Wasn't there a shortage of Rey toys from the most recent Star Wars because the toy execs "knew" that nobody would want to by toys for a female character? The Force Awakens themed Monopoly game didn't even HAVE a Rey piece.
Exactly. The conventional wisdom is consistently wrong about these kinds of things. And it's puzzling to me how it could even be the conventional wisdom. I mean, haven't these guys figured out that women are literally half the population?
 
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PreachersWife2004

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I'm a girl and I don't care if there weren't Rey toys. I don't care that barbies aren't manly, I don't care that they market a mini pink jeep to little girls. If a movie is good, I don't care if the lead is a boy or a girl. I like jessica jones as much as I like daredevil.

Just like what you want to like, but quit trying to make it out as sexism when you don't like something.
 
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Sultan Of Swing

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Exactly. The conventional wisdom is consistently wrong about these kinds of things. And it's puzzling to me how it could even be the conventional wisdom. I mean, haven't these guys figured out that women are literally half the population?
To be honest they've probably carried out some consumer research on it. Now while the demand was higher than what they expected because people complained, we don't know if it was actually as much as the demand for a male lead action figure.
 
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TerranceL

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Okay, here's a quick acid test on how much you like Speed Racer. Are you 10, and failing that, can you mentally put yourself in the mindset of a 10-year-old while watching a movie? I'm in that mindset like 24/7, so it was a blast for me. :D
I'm 40! And well.. I enjoyed the stupid action from the Transformer movies because of nostalgia from watching the cartoon when I was a kid...

When I was a kid and Speed Racer was on I didn't watch it, didn't really appeal to me.
 
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Arcangl86

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"slightly overcompetent" is a bit much don't you think?

Never flown a starship, outflies two trained combat pilots in very maneuverable combat ships while she's flying a freighter.
Where are you getting that she never flown a starship, or that the TIE pilots were actually good at flying them? And really, yes it was a freighter, but that freighter was the freaking Falcon.
Randomly pulls at the insides of a machines she's never been in before, just happens to open the right doors to help save Han and Chewie.
And almost gets Finn killed as result.
Knows how to fly Hans ship better than Han.
She was more familiar with the modifications then Han was. Remember, she was raised by the person who owned the ship.
Untrained in the use of the force yet still able to use it to get guards to do what she wants after thinking about it.

etc etc...
I'll give you that one, though it's not unheard of in the now non-canonical EU.
 
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TerranceL

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Where are you getting that she never flown a starship, or that the TIE pilots were actually good at flying them? And really, yes it was a freighter, but that freighter was the freaking Falcon.
She says she's never flown it before and I find it hard to believe that she had any actual flight experience that involved combat or she wouldn't be spending her time collecting and selling junk. Why would the BIG BAD GUYS give TIE fighters to morons? What military does that? And yes it's the Falcon... it's still a frieghter that's not been maintained or flown in years just sitting in the sand.

And almost gets Finn killed as result.
And yet he gets away with nary a scratch.

She was more familiar with the modifications then Han was. Remember, she was raised by the person who owned the ship.
And yet she had never flown the ship, knowing what the parts do in theory is a completely different story than knowning how to correctly use them in practice.


I'll give you that one, though it's not unheard of in the now non-canonical EU.
She's just a poorly written character, Finn has flaws too which bug me, brainwashed since birth to be loyal to the bad guys, first time he sees combat all that conditioning goes away and he decided to help the resistence. The same resistence which blindly accepts him and Rey for no apparent reason other than to advance the plot. If it's that easy to get to the leadership of the rebellion or whatever they are calling themselves then their enemies must be truly incompetent.

I enjoyed most of the performances though, I greatly enjoyed Boyegas performance and I hope to see ep VIII give Ridley something to do that seems like an actual challenge.
 
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The Cadet

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She says she's never flown it before and I find it hard to believe that she had any actual flight experience that involved combat or she wouldn't be spending her time collecting and selling junk. Why would the BIG BAD GUYS give TIE fighters to morons? What military does that? And yes it's the Falcon... it's still a frieghter that's not been maintained or flown in years just sitting in the sand.

I think this is probably a good moment to point out that Luke was not a pilot before the Death Star Trench Run.
 
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trunks2k

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I think this is probably a good moment to point out that Luke was not a pilot before the Death Star Trench Run.
Luke says that he used to shoot womp rats in a T-16. So it looks like he did used to fly around for fun/training in his spare time. But they do present him as not really knowing how to handle the gun on the Millennium Falcon, but he does a good job at shooting down a Tie Fighter.
 
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