so confused( I have changed my icon to a seeker)

dogs4thewin

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OK so as you can see I changed my faith icon TODAY. I really want to be a Christian and I even believe that Jesus died on the cross and rose again for our sins and stuff. The part I am having trouble with is when people say that Christ is the only way to live and deal with problems. yes I EVEN believe that Christ is the only way to Heaven. I am in school with a Christian based major and want that for myself and others, but I know that A LOT of non-Christians are dealing without a relationship with Christ so how can He be the only way to cope as many Christians I have talked with seem to suggest
 

hedrick

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By and large Jesus focused on living the way he wanted. His teaching about hell was used as a way to wake up believers who weren't showing fruit. It wasn't pointed at non-believers. Similarly, Paul said it wasn't our job to judge non-believers, and in the first few chapters of Romans could even be understood as saying that outsiders might be members of God's people by following their conscience. With the sheep and the goats, the people who are saved are surprised. They didn't know they were serving Christ.

Some Protestants immediately say "Salvation by works!" But that's not the point. Jesus taught that we should base our actions on love for God and others, not on trying to earn credit with God. Paul's attacks on works really was directed against legalism, "works of the Law." Both Jesus and Paul said that we are accepted because God loves us and Jesus died for us, not because we're earned his favor. I think it's perfectly possible for a non-Christian to do the right thing because it's the right thing, and because he cares about other people, and thus avoid the kinds of problems that Paul meant by works righteousness. You are absolutely right that many unbelievers have the same kinds of experiences that we have.

So does Jesus' death matter? I think so. First, like leaven, Jesus' followers really have changed the way people throughout the world deal with each other. Modern secular humanism is really based on Jesus' teachings, and even on his self-sacrifice. The idea that true glory comes from giving ourselves, not from possessions or power, has had a very wide effect.

Second, I believe in spiritual connections, of people with each other, and of people with Christ. My understanding of Paul's doctrine of the atonement is that Jesus death changes us because we die and rise with him, and our union with Christ transforms us. I don't think either spiritual union or the power of Christ's resurrection are limited to Christians. I do think that Jesus is the source, and we're a lot better off as near to the source as possible. Many of the places where evangelism is most needed and most difficult are exactly the places where the spiritual influence of Christ has been the least active. Our role as "leaven" (as Jesus calls us) is really important.

I am not a universalist. I believe people can get into spiritual states that make it impossible for them to participate in the eventual kingdom. It would be really convenient if no Christian was ever in such a state, and all non-Christians were. Things are not so neat. Yet I do believe that the power of Christ is important, our our role as the Church in being the leaven for the world is important.
 
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RETS

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Something to remember, dear friend, is that believers and unbelievers alike are shown the grace of God. Unbelievers go through their tough times, yes- But only by the grace of the God they do not believe in.

I am living proof of this.
 
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gav1nzdad

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OK so as you can see I changed my faith icon TODAY. I really want to be a Christian and I even believe that Jesus died on the cross and rose again for our sins and stuff. The part I am having trouble with is when people say that Christ is the only way to live and deal with problems. yes I EVEN believe that Christ is the only way to Heaven. I am in school with a Christian based major and want that for myself and others, but I know that A LOT of non-Christians are dealing without a relationship with Christ so how can He be the only way to cope as many Christians I have talked with seem to suggest

First, thank you for being honest and posting a sincere and honest question. Can you "cope" in this world without Christ in your life? Sure you can. Like you said, you personally know alot of people who are doing just that. The question is, why would you want to? Christ has already bore it all for us. We are already warned that if we follow Him, we will be persecuted. We will face tough times. Becoming a Christian does not opt you out of that. But through His strength and His grace, we overcome those tough times. I can tell you from personal experience, the peace I get just from knowing that I am saved and this world is not my home, makes it all bearable from one day tot he next.

i will be praying for you. That God will answer the questions of your heart and mind and grant you that kind of peace that comes only from knowing Him as your Saviour.:prayer:
 
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dogs4thewin

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Something to remember, dear friend, is that believers and unbelievers alike are shown the grace of God. Unbelievers go through their tough times, yes- But only by the grace of the God they do not believe in.

I am living proof of this.
How can they make it through with God's grace if they do not believe in it?
 
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gav1nzdad

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How can they make it through with God's grace if they do not believe in it?

I think what he was saying is that God is in control of everything. Even the unbelievers. For example, when I was unrepentant, I had a couple of brushes with death. Yet, God spared me. Why, is still not clear to me. But He had His reasons.
 
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gav1nzdad

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I believe everyone eventually finds their way to god.
Not like we have a time limit to find him, to him time means nothing.

Bible doesn't say you can't accept Christ after u die, shoot some people do it right before they die...should a few seconds really make the difference between heaven and eternal suffering?

True, time is nothing to God, He exists out of time. And true, there have been many "deathbed conversions". I don't think it is biblical sound to suggest that you will be afforded the opportunity to accept Christ after death, however.

Hebrew 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment
 
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RETS

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How can they make it through with God's grace if they do not believe in it?

God's sovereignty in the world is not dependent upon our recognizing it, my friend. Far from it. Matthew 5:45-
In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike.

Peter, after his vision of the sheet, declares in Acts 10:34:
Peter then said: Now I am certain that God treats all people alike.


If God treats all people alike, and He shows His own His divine grace, how much less those who are not His? Remember what else the Bible has said: That He first loved us.

In other words, it doesn't matter that they don't believe in Him- He'll still work to draw them, and showing them grace and mercy while they are still lost is just one way.


As I've stated- I'm living proof of the fact that He cares for people who have not only denied Him, but flat out cursed Him. I AM the worst of sinners, yet I was shown mercy and grace. If I was, so too is everyone else.



And... A little hint. Stay away from the heavy duty theological debates when you're feeling weak in the faith. A lot of times, those can really mess with your head.
 
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talitha

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God's sovereignty in the world is not dependent upon our recognizing it, my friend. Far from it
^this!!:thumbsup:

...and....
Coping in this life is not the point of Christianity. As our dependency upon God grows, and our love for him, so does our need for him - we DO need him to cope as a lover needs her beloved to cope. The trials and sufferings we go through and our responses to them become tests of our faith and love - that is why we "go through things" as Christians. Along the way we are conformed to His likeness.

blessings
tal
 
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Touma

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If you see Christ as only a fix to problems, then I think you will continue to struggle. There are many fixes to many problems.

Just because I am a Christian doesn't mean I will have life easier. And just because I am a non Christian doesn't mean life will suck and I will have nothing to hang on. It rains on both evil and good men alike.

Christ came to bring us back to God through grace. Therapy, drugs, music, friends, sex, etc won't do that. They might be nice counterfeits to give up temporary relief in life, but they won't bring us back to God.

Only Jesus can do that. Please don't see Jesus as just an ATM where you can withdraw when you want. Or see him as 12 steps of rehab, there to fix problems. He is so much more.
 
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dogs4thewin

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If you see Christ as only a fix to problems, then I think you will continue to struggle. There are many fixes to many problems.

Just because I am a Christian doesn't mean I will have life easier. And just because I am a non Christian doesn't mean life will suck and I will have nothing to hang on. It rains on both evil and good men alike.

Christ came to bring us back to God through grace. Therapy, drugs, music, friends, sex, etc won't do that. They might be nice counterfeits to give up temporary relief in life, but they won't bring us back to God.

Only Jesus can do that. Please don't see Jesus as just an ATM where you can withdraw when you want. Or see him as 12 steps of rehab, there to fix problems. He is so much more.
What else because it seems that people with relationships with Christ sometimes are sadder and have less joy than people who never have claimed him.
 
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RETS

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What else because it seems that people with relationships with Christ sometimes are sadder and have less joy than people who never have claimed him.

My friend, you are comparing a segment of one group to another segment of another group, and each of those segments are dissimilar.

Take the saddest unsaved, and compare them to the saddest Christian. It has been my experience, that those sad Christians make it through their patch through clinging to Christ; while those sad unsaved continue to get worse and worse. They look to external influences for cheer and hope, but reject the only One that can truly pull them from it.


Now, those sad Christians are your average ones. And those unsaved are your average ones. There are segments of both that are nearly always in a depressive mood. Know why? They both refuse to take the necessary steps to feel better.

If you've got a headache, take a Motrin. If you've got a bee sting, get some Benadryl. If you've got clinical depression, then get treatment, and if you've got spiritual oppression, take two Gos-pills and call the Physician.


I'm trying to mix some humor in here, but I hope you see my point.
 
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hedrick

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Christians, like everyone else, experience problems in life. God didn't promise to make our lives pleasant. Indeed Christians are at times persecuted for it. But while life may include challenges, if our Christian life and our relationship to God makes us sad, I think we're got a problem. I don't sense that in any of the Christians I know. I admit that there are times when I find sermons boring, but by and large I like being at Church. I like the people (mostly), and I like being in God's presence (well, being consciously in his presence; obviously it's really everywhere).

Jesus said his yoke is light, and everything is based on love. Yes, he disciplines us at times, so it's not sweetness and light all the time. But if being a Christian overall is a bad experience, I think there's something wrong. There are certainly toxic forms of Christianity. I certainly hope that's not the form you know.
 
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RETS

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How can you know which "forms" are toxic?

"There is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus our Lord."

If where you are is applying condemnation, it's toxic.


"If anyone brings to you a Gospel other than that which you have already received from us, let them be cursed. I say again, if anyone, even an angel of heaven, brings to you a Gospel other than that which you have received, let them be damned."

If where you are is preaching something other than the Word of God; if they are telling you that it is through works you are saved rather than faith, for instance; it is toxic.


Those are just a couple examples, but I'm sure others will have some good ones as well.
 
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hedrick

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How can you know which "forms" are toxic?

Forms that make you think Christianity is a burden make me suspicious. Again, there are times we're called to meet challenges. But Jesus said his yoke was light.

The most common things that I'd consider toxic are:

* legalism, a focus on whether people obey certain rules (many of which aren't even in Scripture), and a judgmental way of treating those who don't. For a portrait of where this often can lead, see Christian Association at Penn :: Embracing Toxic Christianity

* an emphasis on submitting to the leaders; at times those in authority may see something in your life that you need to change. Just as kids hate to be disciplined, people may resent that. But that's normally a fairly rare thing for most people. The most toxic forms of Christianity expect people to submit to leaders a lot, and place a lot of emphasis on the special role of leaders.

Here's a more detailed treatment of some of the common toxic features: http://www.philosophy-religion.org/criticism/toxicfaith.htm

I will admit that I've apparently led a sheltered life. I've never seen this. But it seems to me that a lot of people posting in CF are either advocating something that I think is at least partially toxic, or they are victims of it.
 
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gav1nzdad

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2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Follow the advice of this verse. If the Holy Spirit does not bear witness with something and you have been "studying" the word, you will know when it is toxic.

Being part of a congregation of believers is great and the fellowship and encouragement you can receive are very important. But your relationship with God is extremely personal. It is very important that you nourish that relationship through ceaseless prayer. If you are confused, and that is how this thread started, then I encourage you to dive into the word of God and continually pray for wisdom and enlightenment. If you are sincere, you will receive it.
 
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