Sin for the greater good?

[Omena]

I think that if God is killing a person through you (as in the cases with Peter and the Two Witnesses), then obviously there is nothing wrong with that, because it's not really you doing the act but God. However, I can see how that can easily be abused to go around murdering people, and then telling people that God is doing it. My impression of what happened in both Peter's case and the case of the Two Witnesses, is that the deaths seem to be caused supernaturally (eg. through instant drop-dead death, or through fire coming from the mouth). So the manner in which someone kills another person would probably be a good indication as to who actually did the killing (i.e. the person, or God), though maybe not.

I think Pyramid is being much to rigid in his stance. We can't limit God to our own understanding of what sin is. If God Himself were to tell you to steal something and give it to a starving child, would you say "no God, that's a sin". How can it be a sin if God is telling us to do it? To me, sin is disobeying God. We disobey God when we disobey His commands, but I think that should just be a general guideline, and not something we follow blindly. You never know what God is going to tell us to do tomorrow.

 

[Neogaia777]

I already answered this in the Catholic forum thread.

You say you are a saint, and you say that you've already answered this question in another forum, (and I guess your "above" repeating yourself, or posting a link to the answer) (and I would hope in English) But I guess your "soo saintly" that even though your knowledgable of multiple languages, instead of preaching and telling and sharing your answer to a people who maybe don't know other languages (instead of preaching to them, using your abilities in the people you are trying to reach in their native tongue)

Who knows maybe your "soo saintly" or to saintly to even have a true desire to really reach the layman, instead you want to "show off" your knowledge and supposed superiority by I don't know know I guess splendoring in your own self in some way, by trying to impress us by your knowing Latin, although you know that most of us don't know it, (Knowledge, not wisdom, for if it were wisdom, you would pay heed to my words that I am speaking to you right now) But since you are "soo saintly" that although knowing the native tongue that most of us lay-persons in here speak, you are too saintly, I guess to share your knowledge with us in it... this is not the way Jesus or the apostles or the disciples would act.

And one added thing if you have a problem repeating yourself for the sake of helping others, then you really do have a major problem... Do you know how many times Jesus or God repeated themselves, and even though the people seemed to not be getting it, they never "gave up", so why do you? Recall that many fundamental truths about God and the things of God are repeated over and over again, recall how John the baptist's counsel in the beginnings of Luke, reflected some of the very same things based on some of the very same principles that Jesus would (repeat/reflect) talk about later on...

You, in your present condition anyways, are no "saint", because your behavior does not reflect that, in due fact your current behavior is more like a Pharisee, like it says in Luke 11:52- "Woe to you who are versed in the law, because you TOOK (take) AWAY THE KEY OF KNOWLEDGE, you, yourselves, did not go in, and those going in, you hindered"

Hippocrite, are you trying to impress us with your self or do you truly desire to help us or not?

I hope you wake the heck up, supposed "saint"...

 

[Neogaia777]

In this thread, are you talking about those who Paul talks about who reason out, and say "Let us do the bad things, so that the good things may come" or not?

 

[tremble]

I think Pyramid is being much to rigid in his stance. We can't limit God to our own understanding of what sin is. If God Himself were to tell you to steal something and give it to a starving child, would you say "no God, that's a sin". How can it be a sin if God is telling us to do it? To me, sin is disobeying God. We disobey God when we disobey His commands, but I think that should just be a general guideline, and not something we follow blindly. You never know what God is going to tell us to do tomorrow.

I agree. Our understanding is very minimal and there is always something new to learn. God's point of view can sometimes be very different from our own.

 

[dragongunner]

Very interesting question, Jaded...

I'm not sure, but I don't see the first question like I see the last three....at this point, I couldn't "rob to save the poor," nor do I see any Bible examples of anyone doing that...

But "Kill to protect": There is no commandment against killing. The commandment is against MURDER. God directed many people/nations to be killed - the Israelites wiped out many Nations. God directed David to kill Goliath. Abraham was the "father of the faithful" and he had his own trained military army of 300 soldiers. God Himself instituted Capital Punishment for Murderers. Killing is not a sin...but MURDER is.

"Divorce because of Domestic Abuse": Divorce is a sad thing and God hates divorce. But an even sadder thing is a wife staying in a marriage that is abusive because she thinks that God will be angry with her if she leaves. One of our daughters was in a very abusive marriage...it ended when her husband shot himself right in front of her. She is a Paramedic and she tried for 20 minutes to save him...and could not. Now she will live the rest of her life with this horrible scar. It would have been so much better for both of them, had she left before he shot himself.

"Lie to save others from harm": There are multiple examples in the Bible of when lying was not wrong. I don't believe in lying and so this was a hard concept to grasp for me...but check out these examples:

Exodus 1:15-21
(15) And the king of Egypt spake to the Hebrew midwives, of which the name of the one was Shiphrah, and the name of the other Puah:
(16) And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live.
(17) But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive.
(18) And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men children alive?
(19) And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them.
(20) Therefore God dealt well with the midwives: and the people multiplied, and waxed very mighty.
(21) And it came to pass, because the midwives feared God, that he made them houses.

Pharaoh was trying to kill all the male babies as they were born and instructed the Egyptian midwives to kill the male babies soon as they were delivered. But the Egyptian midwives feared God and so they kept the baby boys alive, and lied to Pharaoh and told him that the Israelite women delivered their children before they got to the birth...but that was not the truth...they assisted the Israelite women and saved the baby boys...and the Bible says blessed the Egyptian midwives for disobeying and lying to Pharaoh.

Here is another Bible story where a man lied and God blessed him. It is found in
2 Samuel 17:14
(14) And Absalom and all the men of Israel said, The counsel of Hushai the Archite is better than the counsel of Ahithophel. For the LORD had appointed to defeat the good counsel of Ahithophel, to the intent that the LORD might bring evil upon Absalom.

You might have to read the previous chapter to get the gist of the story...but in a nutshell, David was running from his wicked son Absalom who was trying to take the throne from him. Absalom asked the wisest man in the kingdom what the next move should be and he (Ahithophel) told him he needed to go after David immediately, and wipe him out. Then he asked Hushai what he thought the plan should be. Hushai was a friend of David's and he told him to wait until he had his army all together and then go after his father. Verse 14 says that Absalom and his men accepted the counsel of Hushai, (the lie) because God had appointed to defeat the counsel of Ahithophel. Had Absalom done as Ahithophel directed, David would have lost the battle. But he listened to Hushai and that gave David time to get his army together, and David won the battle. God blessed the plan of Hushai - lying - to stall for time so that David could win the battle with his son for the throne.

So...there are times when it is right to lie...that is a hard concept for me to grasp. I just pray that I know the difference.

Very good post.

You are correct on the difference from killing vs murder. To say they are both the same then police officers for one should be outlawed. Moses, David and his mighty men and a score of others in the bible, who were obeying God would be guilty. The same God who said "thou shalt not kill", is the same God right after that commanded Moses to kill rebellious children if the parents brought them to him, and for adulterers to be killed.......David prayed that God would teach his hands to fight for Israel and at times told David when the wind blows to attack there against the enemy. If someone was trying to kill my wife or another person would I just run away and let them do it....? The answer is no. And I will have NO fear for such action when I stand before Christ.

 

[dragongunner]

I agree. Our understanding is very minimal and there is always something new to learn. God's point of view can sometimes be very different from our own.

Isaiah 55:8-9

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

 

[tremble]

Isaiah 55:8-9

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Yes, this exactly. Thanks for posting the reference. ^.^