Sin for the greater good?

[Nani-Day]

Rob to feed the poor.
Kill to protect.
Divorce because of domestic abuse.
Lie to save others from harm.

How do we handle these situations as followers of Christ?

 

[pyramid33]

Sin doesn't have a purpose.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

)1( Rob to feed the poor.
)2( Kill to protect.
)3( Divorce because of domestic abuse.
)4( Lie to save others from harm.

How do we handle these situations as followers of Christ?

always go back to Scripture to test and see what Yhwh the Creator teaches you to do, as He is Delighted to Reveal to you the Truth IF you love Him and do what HE says to do.


(1) it is written, if a man is caught stealing to feed himself or his family, he is still liable to punishment per the law.
it is written, if someone is hungry, give them food freely and generously as our Father in heaven is generous.
(2) never do it. entrust all to Yhwh the Creator who holds all life in His hands now, and eternally. HE is faithful and able to do what is needed to protect His Own. HE also takes life, and allows it to be taken, He is in control.
(3) never do it.
(4) look up in Scripture how many times a man of faith lied, or Rahab, and was counted faithful. But also note that they were not called nor known as liars. (there's a life and death difference). no liars are allowed into heaven. (read Revelation again, out loud to yourself, anyone)...

 

[Tammy]

Rob to feed the poor.
Kill to protect.
Divorce because of domestic abuse.
Lie to save others from harm.

How do we handle these situations as followers of Christ?

Very interesting question, Jaded...

I'm not sure, but I don't see the first question like I see the last three....at this point, I couldn't "rob to save the poor," nor do I see any Bible examples of anyone doing that...

But "Kill to protect": There is no commandment against killing. The commandment is against MURDER. God directed many people/nations to be killed - the Israelites wiped out many Nations. God directed David to kill Goliath. Abraham was the "father of the faithful" and he had his own trained military army of 300 soldiers. God Himself instituted Capital Punishment for Murderers. Killing is not a sin...but MURDER is.

"Divorce because of Domestic Abuse": Divorce is a sad thing and God hates divorce. But an even sadder thing is a wife staying in a marriage that is abusive because she thinks that God will be angry with her if she leaves. One of our daughters was in a very abusive marriage...it ended when her husband shot himself right in front of her. She is a Paramedic and she tried for 20 minutes to save him...and could not. Now she will live the rest of her life with this horrible scar. It would have been so much better for both of them, had she left before he shot himself.

"Lie to save others from harm": There are multiple examples in the Bible of when lying was not wrong. I don't believe in lying and so this was a hard concept to grasp for me...but check out these examples:

Exodus 1:15-21
(15) And the king of Egypt spake to the Hebrew midwives, of which the name of the one was Shiphrah, and the name of the other Puah:
(16) And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live.
(17) But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive.
(18) And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men children alive?
(19) And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them.
(20) Therefore God dealt well with the midwives: and the people multiplied, and waxed very mighty.
(21) And it came to pass, because the midwives feared God, that he made them houses.

Pharaoh was trying to kill all the male babies as they were born and instructed the Egyptian midwives to kill the male babies soon as they were delivered. But the Egyptian midwives feared God and so they kept the baby boys alive, and lied to Pharaoh and told him that the Israelite women delivered their children before they got to the birth...but that was not the truth...they assisted the Israelite women and saved the baby boys...and the Bible says blessed the Egyptian midwives for disobeying and lying to Pharaoh.

Here is another Bible story where a man lied and God blessed him. It is found in
2 Samuel 17:14
(14) And Absalom and all the men of Israel said, The counsel of Hushai the Archite is better than the counsel of Ahithophel. For the LORD had appointed to defeat the good counsel of Ahithophel, to the intent that the LORD might bring evil upon Absalom.

You might have to read the previous chapter to get the gist of the story...but in a nutshell, David was running from his wicked son Absalom who was trying to take the throne from him. Absalom asked the wisest man in the kingdom what the next move should be and he (Ahithophel) told him he needed to go after David immediately, and wipe him out. Then he asked Hushai what he thought the plan should be. Hushai was a friend of David's and he told him to wait until he had his army all together and then go after his father. Verse 14 says that Absalom and his men accepted the counsel of Hushai, (the lie) because God had appointed to defeat the counsel of Ahithophel. Had Absalom done as Ahithophel directed, David would have lost the battle. But he listened to Hushai and that gave David time to get his army together, and David won the battle. God blessed the plan of Hushai - lying - to stall for time so that David could win the battle with his son for the throne.

So...there are times when it is right to lie...that is a hard concept for me to grasp. I just pray that I know the difference.

 

[pyramid33]

So...there are times when it is right to lie...

Untrue.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

actually, it is true. as it is in line with Scripture and you didn't even read the examples given, did you?

the other 3 parts though are not, and are not supported by God's Spirit nor by Scripture. the other 3 parts are supported by society, the world, satan, and many religions, but not in nor by Jesus Christ and the Word of God.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Genesis 9:6 NKJV - “Whoever sheds man's blood ... - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+9%3A6...‎

Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed; For in the image of
God He made man.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Proverbs 6:30 - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Proverbs%206:30‎

30 The fault is not so great when a man hath stolen: for he stealeth to fill his
hungry soul: ... 30 People don't despise a thief if he steals food when he is hungry
; ...

 

[pyramid33]

actually, it is true.

1 Corinthians 13:6
Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;


Sin doesn't ever have a purpose.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Proverbs 6:30-31 (ERV)

30-31 A hungry man might steal to fill his stomach. If he is caught, he must pay seven times more than he stole. It might cost him everything he owns, but other people understand. They don’t lose all their respect for him.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

1 Corinthians 13:6
Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;


Sin doesn't ever have a purpose.

so? who mentioned sin ? God said Rahab was saved because she hid the spies, He never said nor implied that she sinned in doing so. Same with other times when God's man or woman of FAITH lied.

 

[AXO]

I already answered this in the Catholic forum thread.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Revelation 2 Expanded Bible (EXB)

12 “Write this to the ·angel [messenger; see 1:20] of the church in Pergamum [C a rich city in western Asia Minor]:
“The One who has the sharp, double-edged sword [C the resurrected Jesus; 1:16] says this [L these things]: 13 I know where you live. It is where Satan has his throne [C a reference to false worship; Pergamum was a center of emperor worship]. But you ·are true to me [L hold fast to my name]. You did not ·refuse to tell about [deny] your faith in me even during the time of Antipas, my faithful witness who was killed ·in your city [L among you; C we know nothing further about Antipas], where Satan lives.
14 “But I have a few things against you: You have some there who follow the teaching of Balaam. He taught Balak how to ·cause the people of Israel to sin [L put a stumbling block before the children of Israel] by eating food offered to idols and by taking part in sexual sins [Num. 22—24; 31:8; Deut. 23:4–5; 2 Pet. 2:15; Jude 11]. 15 You also have some who follow the teaching of the Nicolaitans [see 2:6]. 16 So ·change your hearts and lives [repent]. If you do not, I will come to you quickly and ·fight [make war] against them with the sword that comes out of my mouth [C the judgment he enacts by merely speaking; 1:16].
17 “Everyone who has ears should ·listen to [hear; obey] what the Spirit says to the churches.


(some within('the churches") the Spirit of God speaks to, as it is written, believe and are saved. seek and listen to the Spirit of Yhwh to know what to do in any and in all situations, and where to go if needed.)

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Revelation 2 Expanded Bible (EXB)

12 “Write this to the ·angel [messenger; see 1:20] of the church in Pergamum [C a rich city in western Asia Minor]:
“The One who has the sharp, double-edged sword [C the resurrected Jesus; 1:16] says this [L these things]: 13 I know where you live. It is where Satan has his throne [C a reference to false worship; Pergamum was a center of emperor worship]. But you ·are true to me [L hold fast to my name]. You did not ·refuse to tell about [deny] your faith in me even during the time of Antipas, my faithful witness who was killed ·in your city [L among you; C we know nothing further about Antipas], where Satan lives.
14 “But I have a few things against you: You have some there who follow the teaching of Balaam. He taught Balak how to ·cause the people of Israel to sin [L put a stumbling block before the children of Israel] by eating food offered to idols and by taking part in sexual sins [Num. 22—24; 31:8; Deut. 23:4–5; 2 Pet. 2:15; Jude 11]. 15 You also have some who follow the teaching of the Nicolaitans [see 2:6]. 16 So ·change your hearts and lives [repent]. If you do not, I will come to you quickly and ·fight [make war] against them with the sword that comes out of my mouth [C the judgment he enacts by merely speaking; 1:16].
17 “Everyone who has ears should ·listen to [hear; obey] what the Spirit says to the churches.


(some within('the churches") the Spirit of God speaks to, as it is written, believe and are saved. seek and listen to the Spirit of Yhwh to know what to do in any and in all situations, and where to go if needed.)

 

[tremble]

I'm not sure, but I don't see the first question like I see the last three....at this point, I couldn't "rob to save the poor," nor do I see any Bible examples of anyone doing that...

This could qualify:

Matthew 12
1At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.

It's unlikely that Jesus or his followers owned this field, as I think the context is that it's just a random field they are passing on the way to their next preaching destination.

If that's the case, then they were taking food from the field without permission. Or maybe they did have permission from the owner, but again, the context seems to be one of randomness as they were traveling.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

This could qualify:
It's unlikely that Jesus or his followers owned this field, as I think the context is that it's just a random field they are passing on the way to their next preaching destination.
If that's the case, then they were taking food from the field without permission. Or maybe they did have permission from the owner, but again, the context seems to be one of randomness as they were traveling.

Jesus owned this field. (all things are His - in Hebrew all things including all of our bodies and parts thereof are Gods').

In Israel and where God rules, the poor had direct permission by law to pick what they needed to eat. The 'land-owners' crop growers all were required to let the poor glean, and to leave what's left after one picking/harvesting for the poor and not to go through their field a second time to try to get more.

To glean was not considered stealing nor robbery.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Wonderfully and Beautifully the GOSPEL OF JESUS is all through GENESIS , EXODUS, LEVITICUS, NUMBERS, DEUTERONOMY, PSALMS, PROVERBS, and PROPHETS, et al....

 

[tremble]

Jesus owned this field. (all things are His - in Hebrew all things including all of our bodies and parts thereof are Gods').

In Israel and where God rules, the poor had direct permission by law to pick what they needed to eat. The 'land-owners' crop growers all were required to let the poor glean, and to leave what's left after one picking/harvesting for the poor and not to go through their field a second time to try to get more.

To glean was not considered stealing nor robbery.

I suppose you mean "own" in the sense that Jesus owns the whole world by virtue of being the son of God, right? I'm fine to go with that, though I think it needs to be a consistent argument. Jesus also owns all the grocery stores in the world, too.

And if his followers could take food from the field because Jesus owned it, then surely the same should apply to the grocery stores Jesus owns?

I suppose the difference is that fields are specifically mentioned for gleaning, whereas shopping markets are not though if Jesus owns them then maybe it shouldn't make a difference.

I think the context of the situation depends, too, as God may lead different people to different actions depending on the context.

For example, God says murder is wrong, and yet the Revelation describes circumstances in which he will use the two witnesses to murder people.

In Acts 5 Peter presided over the death of Ananas and Saphira. Sure, God is the one who did the killing, but he did it through Peter.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

when a doctor or nutritionist, carey reams, or adelle davis, or maureen salaman, of max gerson, or any of thousands of others,
tell someone
that they will die shortly of a heart attack (if they don't change their diet or otherwise correct their condition)
and they die shortly just as they were told,
the one who told them did not contribute to their death,
and God did not use them as an instrument in their death -

they simply told the truth to the one who was going to die,
and they died.

likewise Peter did not contribute to the death of ananias and saphira (there is nothing in the language that indicates any such - he did not curse them at all, like the bald man of God in one instance who cursed the children who were disobedient mockers and a bear came out straightway and slaughtered the children ) ,

he simply told them the message God gave him to tell them,
and they died by God's doing, just as it is written.

someone else last year tried to justify murder with the example of Peter, and some cults have been pushing that for some time,
but it is unholy twisting of Scripture to promote murder thus. it simply is not there.

 

[tremble]

Wow, strong reaction! OK I retract my comments on Peter. What about the other poi ts I raised?

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