Should Believers in Christ be Called Sinners?

[jarrettcpr]

What is this <spin>?



Did Jesus Christ command the impossible as some people would claim?

The <spin> (It's suppose to be <snip>) I got my n and p backwards... Sorry. It just means where I snip out parts of your post that I'm not concerned with.

Yes, Jesus does sometime command the impossible. For much of what he said is known as literary symbolism.

For example Jesus says...

"And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell." (Matthew 18:9)

I don't that that literally, but I do take it seriously.

I don't think we disagree, but it seems you didn't read all my posts in this thread. Looked to me you quoted one thing of mine and jumped all over it. I was clear we should try and be perfect, but we can't reach it here on earth. IMO, it looked like you saw a part of one of my posts, and came to the conclusion that b/c I said we can't reach perfection, therefore we shouldn't try to achieve it. I said nothing of the like.

 

[MariaRegina]

Okay, I understand your attempt to apply literary criticism.

In that regard, have you ever read C.S. Lewis' An Experiment in Criticism, Cambridge UP, 1961?
It is a short work that provides invaluable information about literary criticism.

Back to topic on hand:

I do believe that Christ's words are to be taken at His Word unless he uses an analogy, parable, idiomatic expression, metaphor, or other literary expressions, which he has used occasionally.

Nevertheless, Christ's commandment to be perfect is not just "literary symbolism" because this theme is repeated throughout the scriptures by various authors. Just check the concordance where you will see more than 20 listings for the word perfect.


Just this one verse: Perfect love cast out fear.
Since we humans obviously cannot love perfectly (like God can), does that mean we will never be able to cast out fear? No.
Though God's Divine Energies and His loving kindness, we can be enabled to love God and our neighbor perfectly,
And so perfect love can cast out our fears. So too, can we become perfect.

 

[MamaZ]

Can a person by his or her own works make themselves perfect?

 

[MariaRegina]

Can a person by his or her own works make themselves perfect?

No, That is the Pelagian heresy.

It is only by God's Grace, His Divine Energies, that we can be perfected.
Grace is God's Divine work, not ours.
However, we have to cooperate with God's grace
as God does not force His Grace on us against our will.

 

[MamaZ]

How does one co operate with grace? Explain this please

 

[MariaRegina]

Cooperation with God's grace:

Grace can be compared to the soft blowing wind. If we are quiet, we can hear it. If we are not sober and watchful (as St. Peter's Epistle admonishes us), then we can miss it.

If we are engaged in sinful acts, then the distractions of the world and the flesh may prevent us from hearing the voice of the Lord. If we are not humble, we can miss it entirely.

So, we have to be receptive and open. By reading the Bible, praying unceasingly, and loving God, neighbors, and our enemies, we become more open to the voice of the Lord in our lives. Then God can perfect His work, as we are His creatures, the work of His Hands.

"If today you hear the voice of the Lord, harden not your hearts." (Christian Prayer)

 

[MamaZ]

Cooperation with God's grace:

Grace can be compared to the soft blowing wind. If we are quiet, we can hear it. If we are not sober and watchful (as St. Peter's Epistle admonishes us), then we can miss it.

If we are engaged in sinful acts, then the distractions of the world and the flesh may prevent us from hearing the voice of the Lord. If we are not humble, we can miss it entirely.

So, we have to be receptive and open. By reading the Bible, praying unceasingly, and loving God, neighbors, and our enemies, we become more open to the voice of the Lord in our lives. Then God can perfect His work, as we are His creatures, the work of His Hands.

"If today you hear the voice of the Lord, harden not your hearts." (Christian Prayer)

Gods Grace is not as a soft blowing wind. Biblical Grace is Gods mighty Power. It is God setting His favor upon a person and bringing to pass what He has promised to this person through His son Jesus Christ our risen Lord.

 

[jarrettcpr]

Okay, I understand your attempt to apply literary criticism.

In that regard, have you ever read C.S. Lewis' An Experiment in Criticism, Cambridge UP, 1961?
It is a short work that provides invaluable information about literary criticism.

No, I haven't, but I'll look it up.

Back to topic on hand:

I do believe that Christ's words are to be taken at His Word unless he uses an analogy, parable, idiomatic expression, metaphor, or other literary expressions, which he has used occasionally.

You say the word occasionally, as if it's once in a blue moon that Jesus' uses the aforementioned. Much of what Jesus said was indeed analogous, parabolic, idiomatic expression, metaphoric, or other types literary expressions.

You don't there is no literary expressions in the words... "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." It would astound me if you said no.

I don't think we can be perfect here on earth even with the help of God. For we are still in our flesh. We can never fully die off our flesh. We certainly should try, but our perfection only comes after death.

I could cite Scripture to prove my point, but for now time is not on my side.

Nevertheless, Christ's commandment to be perfect is not just "literary symbolism" because this theme is repeated throughout the scriptures by various authors. Just check the concordance where you will see more than 20 listings for the word perfect.

Just this one verse: Perfect love cast out fear.
Since we humans obviously cannot love perfectly (like God can), does that mean we will never be able to cast out fear? No.
Though God's Divine Energies and His loving kindness, we can be enabled to love God and our neighbor perfectly,
And so perfect love can cast out our fears. So too, can we become perfect.

Basically, my position all along has been we cannot be perfect here on earth. Even with God's help. For we are still in the flesh. Only until Death are we perfected; all by God's work. With that said, doesn't mean we shouldn't try, just that we're not going to reach.

For example, just because I know for a fact the older I get I will gain more and more weight, but that doesnt' mean I don't watch my weight. In fact, I strive to stay at my current weight, even though I know the truth of the matter is age will creep in causing me to 'naturally' gain weight. Hopefully, you'll understand this literary expression.

 

[visionary]

We proclaim him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone perfect in Christ.

Col 1:28 illustrates Paul's effort to teaching those under him with everything he knows, praying and hoping that when the day comes they will be presented perfect in Christ.

No one can deny that he has sinned, and no one should deny that he does not have sin. Since we, all have sin, and our account with God shows sin on our record - even though we have been forgiven, what then is the difference between the sinner and the saint? Paul made this crystal clear when he said, "Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after" (l Tim. 5:24).

So basically it boils down to this... "Where are your sins?" I trust that they have been forgiven and are gone on before to be blotted out. If not, however, they will follow after you and condemn you in the judgment - Acts 3:19-20.

 

[visionary]

You must understand that it took time, even for our Lord to reach perfection. "Though He were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He suffered; and being made perfect, He became the Author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him" (Heb. 5:8, 9).

How was Yeshua made perfect? "Through sufferings" He was made perfect Hebrews 2:10 tells us.

 

[visionary]

If this concept of living perfectly in God was restricted solely to our Lord, then He could never have said, "The disciple is not above his Master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his Master" (Luke 6:40).

 

[visionary]

The concept of one's living free of sin and being perfect in this life is not only difficult for a modern so-called follower of Christ to believe or accept, but it is also incomprehensible. In fact, it is ridiculous to every one who has not experienced the New Birth. Nevertheless, the Word of God stands true and unchangeable. We read in the Book of Hebrews (10:14, 15) that "by one offering He hath perfected forever them that are sanctified. Whereof, the Holy Ghost is a witness to us."

Peter verified this when he wrote these words of consolation

1 Peter 5:10 But the God of all grace, Who hath called us unto His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.


"Therefore, leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ," says the writer of the Book of Hebrews, "let us go on unto perfection" (Heb. 6:1).

 

[visionary]

It was Paul who said,

Eph 4:4-6 "He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that He might fill all things. And He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith"

Eph 4:10 "and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ

 

[visionary]

Here is a Revelation for you doubters that God can not make man perfect like He is before He returns....

"Which," as Paul emphatically declared, "hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to His saints: to whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus" (Col. 1:26-28).

 

[MariaRegina]

Thank you visionary for all those bible quotes which prove that the theme of perfection is not just a literary expression, but a reality that Christ wishes us all to attain.

 

[visionary]

Thank you visionary for all those bible quotes which prove that the theme of perfection is not just a literary expression, but a reality that Christ wishes us all to attain.

You are most welcome... Let us pray that it is a reality in our hearts and our wish too because we do believe He can perfect it in us.

 

[katherine2001]

And if we are going to attain it, we have to realize how much we sin and fall short of Christ's example. If you study the lives of the saints, you see that the more holy they became, the more they saw their sin. As Christ said in the Sermon on the Mount, "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God." The more you see God, the more you see your sin, even though, objectively, you are less sinful than you used to be.

 

[MariaRegina]

And if we are going to attain it, we have to realize how much we sin and fall short of Christ's example. If you study the lives of the saints, you see that the more holy they became, the more they saw their sin. As Christ said in the Sermon on the Mount, "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God." The more you see God, the more you see your sin, even though, objectively, you are less sinful than you used to be.

Thanks, Katherine.

Humility is seeing ourselves as we really are -- sinners in need of repentance. Even great holy men asked for prayers as they were dying because they saw all their shortcomings -- ways in which they missed the mark -- and chose evil instead of the good. Minor things to us, like perhaps ignoring the beggar at the corner as we hurried into church.

 

[visionary]

Ohhhh, I agree... Humility is the only way one is going to prepare the heart for what God bring. One thing is for sure, in the presence of God we are all going to find ourselves totally unworthy.

Like Daniel 9:18 we are going to find "My comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength."

Saints are repentent sinners. Even Job said " I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes." Job 43:6. It is this state of sincere repentence when God reveals sin, that allows for the transformation to occur in us.

Isaiah said "Woe is me, for I am undone." Those who have never experienced being in the Awesome Presence of the Holy One of Israel, can not understand the High Calling.

Isaiah 6:3 and John the Revelator fell as one dead before the feet of the angel. Rev 22:8. To even be spiritual prepared to being in His Presence takes fasting and prayer. Most people are not willing to sacrifice all this world has to offer, to be in His Presence. Not that God is going to taker this world away, but that the Lord is needing to take the love for the things of earth out, and if that is not willingly sacrificed, then God can not approach in all His Holiness.

The comparison of Holy with the unclean causes the unclean to abhor themselves, to lose strength, and recognise how sin has corrupted them so bad.

 

[visionary]

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