Should Believers in Christ be Called Sinners?

[visionary]

May you all exceed the righteousness of a Pharisee....

 

[nephilimiyr]

We are not to think like Gnosticism who believed that converts are perfect, set apart from the world (sinless).

As "forgiven sinners" which means we are 'in Christ', as new creature along with old creature, the work of the Spirit whereby He causes us to die to sin, to be raised with Christ, and to be made new creatures. In its progressive sense, it must be understood as that work of the Spirit whereby He continually renews and transforms us into the likeness of Christ, enabling us to keep on growing in grace. Sanctification is about our own choices and behavior. It involves work. Empowered by God’s Spirit, we strive. We fight sin. As we become more and more sanctified, the power of the gospel conforms us more and more closely, with ever-increasing clarity, to the image of Jesus Christ. The Christian life comes not by the work of the Holy Spirit alone, nor by our work alone, but by our responding to and cooperating with the grace the Holy Spirit initiates and sustains. We are not sanctified by our good works, rather, because God sanctified us, by grace, He produces good works in our lives. In fact, we do not sanctify ourselves any more than we justify ourselves. Sanctification is God’s work, and His work in us produces good works.

If you would actually take the time to read what I have said you will see that I'm not agreeing with Gnosticism. Something tells me that you and some of the others here simply refuse to listen, so much for honest and reasonable discussion, just accuse your opponent of heresey and then stand on your soap-box so you can preach against it.

 

[Frogster]

May you all exceed the righteousness of a Pharisee....

yes,goes to show you the law was not enough.that is what they had.

 

[nephilimiyr]

What I don't understand is why people are ignoring what I say and specifically addressing it.

I take that back, I think I'm starting to understand now.

 

[visionary]

yes,goes to show you the law was not enough.that is what they had.

Hey,what I wrote... that was Christ's directive. Follow His advice..

 

[Frogster]

Hey,what I wrote... that was Christ's directive. Follow His advice..

Your proving the point again! See.. Jesus knew the law was not the righteousness of God.



Rom 10;3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.

 

[jarrettcpr]

We should be called Christians who sin and will never stop sinning until DEATH!

 

[visionary]

Your proving the point again! See..even Jesus knew the law was not the righteousness of God.



Rom 10;3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.

Excellent verse... So you do see that you need to submit to God's righteousness... and that it must exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees.


Matthew 5:20
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

[nephilimiyr]

We should be called Christians who sin and will never stop sinning until DEATH!

LOL, I can agree with that.

 

[Frogster]

Excellent verse... So you do see that you need to submit to God's righteousness... and that it must exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees.


Matthew 5:20
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

point being,the law,which was their righteousness was not God's.Notice in your verse,they could not go into the kingdom because of law.
Come on now sis,your making this too easy!

 

[visionary]

LOL, I can agree with that.

DO you believe that Christ is wrong, and that even with the help of the Holy Spirit it is impossible to live within out sin. Even if Christ encouraged the woman thrown at His feet to go and see no more.

 

[nephilimiyr]

DO you believe that Christ is wrong, and that even with the help of the Holy Spirit it is impossible to live within out sin. Even if Christ encouraged the woman thrown at His feet to go and see no more.

It sounds to me you don't trust the Holy Spirit very well. You should pray about this.

Galatians 5:16-17, So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want.

If you live by the Spirit you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. Yes, the Holy Spirit, as you live by him and walk in him, has the power to give you the victory over sin. Of course if you don't believe that then sin is what you will do.

 

[judechild]

We are not to think like Gnosticism who believed that converts are perfect, set apart from the world (sinless).

Aww. Darn!

 

[jarrettcpr]

DO you believe that Christ is wrong, and that even with the help of the Holy Spirit it is impossible to live within out sin. Even if Christ encouraged the woman thrown at His feet to go and see no more.

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matthew 5:48)

"Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful." (Luke 6:36)

I believe these two verses show what we should be achieving, but it's not something we can ever fully reach here on earth. And no, I don't take everything Jesus said as literal, but I do take it serious. Much of what Jesus said is symbolic. Like picking up your cross and following me. This is known as literary symbolism.

 

[visionary]

We should be called Christians who sin and will never stop sinning until DEATH!

You agreed with this, which is why I had to ask... ... I just wanted you to think again what you said about agreeing with this. .. God has more faith in us, and by the power of the Holy Spirit actually expects us to reach the sinless level. It is all part of the sanctification level of perfection in Him. THink about the 144,000... what were they able to achieve here on earth in the last days that makes them stand out... "they are without guile" THey are in the very image of Christ... they are perfect examples of living righteously in God's eyes.
We should all strive to be a part of this now here on earth before He returns.

 

[jarrettcpr]

You agreed with this, which is why I had to ask... ... I just wanted you to think again what you said about agreeing with this. .. God has more faith in us, and by the power of the Holy Spirit actually expects us to reach the sinless level. It is all part of the sanctification level of perfection in Him. THink about the 144,000... what were they able to achieve here on earth in the last days that makes them stand out... "they are without guile" THey are in the very image of Christ... they are perfect examples of living righteously in God's eyes.
We should all strive to be a part of this now here on earth before He returns.

So, you believe we can become perfect here on earth? You believe in the doctrine known as Perfectionism? I don't believe in that doctrine.

 

[sunlover1]

To start out on scripture, I first chose this verse...
2 Corinthians 5:21, God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Since Jesus has fulfilled what is said here about him becoming sin for us, we are now, through faith, the righteousness of God.

So are we sinners or the righteousness of God in Christ? You can't be both, or can you?

Not by identity.
Our "identity" is in Christ.. we are the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God,
like you said, through Christ Jesus.

We are not sinners by identity.
We're saints..

that's why you dont see letters to the Corinthians beginning with
"To all of the sinners at Corinth"

 

[MariaRegina]

So, you believe we can become perfect here on earth? You believe in the doctrine known as Perfectionism? I don't believe in that doctrine.

Neither do I believe in Perfectionism, which is a psychological illness. No one is perfect except God.
"One is holy; One is the Lord, Jesus Christ to the glory of God the Father. Amen." (Divine Liturgy)

However, how do you interpret Matthew 5:

Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Why did Christ give us this rule?
Based on this command, are we not to strive to be perfect?

If there is any hesitation on this point, then look at Mark 12:30-31.

If we obey Christ's commandment to be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect, then we will simultaneously fulfill the 1st and 2nd Commandments found in Mark 12 where Mark quotes Christ who quotes from Deut. 6:4,5 and Lev. 19:18.

"And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength." This is the first commandment.
And the second, like it, is this, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." There is no other commandment greater than these.

Ah, but there is more, we will not only love our neighbors, but also our enemies as Christ reminds us in St. Matthew:

You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy."
But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you.

By loving our enemies, and not expecting people to return our love, we will fulfill the law of Christ, who also loved His enemies. And Matthew 5 is completed by Christ's command: "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

Furthermore, Christ wants us to strive for perfection and not be lukewarm in our spiritual life as He states in Revelation 3:15-16

"I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot.
So, then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of my mouth."

The casual, lukewarm, indifferent attitude that many Christians have to their spiritual condition is death to their soul. If we do not struggle against sin, then we are indifferent and lukewarm. As long as we struggle and are repentant, then we are righteous in the sight of God, and He will forgive us our many sins.

However, if we deny that we are sinners, then we make ourselves liars as St. John states.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

Therefore, we must acknowledge our sinfulness, and God will forgive us and make us righteous. However, we cannot think that a one-time confession at an altar call will justify us.

We must repent and confess our sins every time we fail. This is the struggle to which Christ calls us: to strive for perfection, but if we fall into sin, then we should repent, get up again, and continue the struggle to be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect.

Finally, St. John clarifies any remaining confusion about the link between sin, righteousness, and perfection:

But who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His Commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

By struggling to keep the 1st and 1nd Commandments listed above, and by repenting of our sins, God will bring us to perfection, and it will be His work of Grace in us.

 

[jarrettcpr]

Neither do I believe in Perfectionism, which is a psychological illness. No one is perfect except God.
"One is holy; One is the Lord, Jesus Christ to the glory of God the Father. Amen." (Divine Liturgy)

However, how do you interpret Matthew 5:

Why did Christ give us this rule?
Based on this command, are we not to strive to be perfect?

<spin>

I want to make sure you saw my post before the one you quoted me on which was...

"I believe these two verses show what we should be achieving, but it's not something we can ever fully reach here on earth."

I said it's something we should achieve, but not something we will attain here on earth.

It seemed from your reply that b/c I said we can't reach it (perfection), means we shouldn't try to achieve it and that's not what I said at all. I just had to clarify that.

 

[MariaRegina]

"I believe these two verses show what we should be achieving, but it's not something we can ever fully reach here on earth."

Did Jesus Christ command the impossible as some people would claim?

Remember that nothing is impossible with God.