Should a Christian go to war?

[BernieEOD]

You have said "one must use discretion", and that is why you have refused to serve in Iraq. I commend you for that. But I hate to break it to you, your government has had the blood of innocents on its hands from the moment of its conception. Read up about the conquest of American First Nations peoples to the history of US foreign policy in the Middle East and Latin America. Check up on Suharto from Indonesia or Pinochet from Chile, see who they were and who backed them to the hilt. American armed forces and the American government have a history of violence and conquest of innocent people that origins from your nation's birth. Not that Canada is any better.(Quote)

You don't have to tell me. I myself refuse to join the national outrage over 9-11 due to the fact that from a military point of view, 9-11 was pale compared to what the USAF has done to places like Dresdyn, Colonge, Tokyo, Osaka, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Pyongyang, Hanoi, Hiaphong, Baghdad, Belgrade, Baghdad again. During my forst 13 years of service, I was on submarines. We were "Nuclear weapons capable". These weapons were claimed to be aimed at enemy command and control centers. The truth is, not even the Captian knew where they were actually aimed. If ever commanded to use them, orders would be to load disk #..... Proceed to .....
and launch on.....

Even while diving under ships for real in search of bombs in those early months after 9-11, I had no hatred of the enemy. I was cursing the polititians who made an enemy out of one who as once an ally against the Soviets for in his book "A Republic! Not an Empire" Pat Buchanan wrote "9-11! We got bombed and we deserved it!" And I do believe that statement. None the less, I could not allow the enemy to blow up any more innocent people so I did my job.

 

[MostRadicalManEver]

So Uh? I am confused....

Are Christians supposed to go to war or not?

LOL!

I say no.. NO more quibbling! LOL

Jesus Rules!

 

[TG123]

You have said "one must use discretion", and that is why you have refused to serve in Iraq. I commend you for that. But I hate to break it to you, your government has had the blood of innocents on its hands from the moment of its conception. Read up about the conquest of American First Nations peoples to the history of US foreign policy in the Middle East and Latin America. Check up on Suharto from Indonesia or Pinochet from Chile, see who they were and who backed them to the hilt. American armed forces and the American government have a history of violence and conquest of innocent people that origins from your nation's birth. Not that Canada is any better.(Quote)

You don't have to tell me. I myself refuse to join the national outrage over 9-11 due to the fact that from a military point of view, 9-11 was pale compared to what the USAF has done to places like Dresdyn, Colonge, Tokyo, Osaka, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Pyongyang, Hanoi, Hiaphong, Baghdad, Belgrade, Baghdad again. During my forst 13 years of service, I was on submarines. We were "Nuclear weapons capable". These weapons were claimed to be aimed at enemy command and control centers. The truth is, not even the Captian knew where they were actually aimed. If ever commanded to use them, orders would be to load disk #..... Proceed to .....
and launch on.....

Even while diving under ships for real in search of bombs in those early months after 9-11, I had no hatred of the enemy. I was cursing the polititians who made an enemy out of one who as once an ally against the Soviets for in his book "A Republic! Not an Empire" Pat Buchanan wrote "9-11! We got bombed and we deserved it!" And I do believe that statement. None the less, I could not allow the enemy to blow up any more innocent people so I did my job.

BernieOD,

I have to say that on some issues I disagree with you but I have more respect for you than I do for most other people I know. You aren't blinded by the propaganda of your leaders and are courageous enough to think for yourself and not be fooled by their lies. I can't say the same for most people opposed as strongly to pacifism as you are that I have debated with. You have also caused me to reconsider some of my beliefs in regard to pacifism in light of Scripture. This discussion has left me with a lot to think and pray about. Take care.

 

[TG123]

So Uh? I am confused....

Are Christians supposed to go to war or not?

LOL!

I say no.. NO more quibbling! LOL

Jesus Rules!

I still claim NO. Yes, Jesus definitely does rule!!! At least when it comes to that assertion, I hope that BernieOD and myself will be able to agree.

 

[TG123]

Repelling an attacker is not vengence. Hunting down a rapist, robber, or murderer in order to bring him before the courts is not vengence.
What those SEALS did to the Somali Pirates was well withing the authority of the government under Romans 13. If any of those SEALS were Christian, they did no wrong.

Interesting. I'm going to spend quite some time thinking and praying about this.

 

[Linus]

You mean God-made nations...

PEACE

Yes, Abraham is our father (of us faithful) and a father of many people and nations but do you honestly mean that e.g. the current borders in Africa are God-made? Some of the boundaries looks like they have been drawn with the aid of an ruler. The colonial powers drew borders that suited their needs and not the indigenous people's needs and concerns.

The boundaries the colonial powers created in Africa has imposed serious disadvantages and creating severe problems for the people in Africa.

Do you honestly believe that God inspired the Europeans to draw those lines, while they were enjoying their comfort in Europe at that time?

 

[Sibs]

When Jesus saw the trading in His Father's house being turned into a den of thieves he did not say politely "please leave..." I do believe that there are times we Christians are called to war. Maybe no everyone but those who are called should go. That's my contribution.

 

[BernieEOD]

To add more to this:

Pacifists who who put up passive resistance have thier place too. All too often, the evil are only brave when they have a weapon and their victims do not. When debating with one who believed all Christians should be killed or imprisoned, my response was. "Those of us who believe in fighting back will while those who do not will overflow your jails".

 

[BernieEOD]

I still claim NO. Yes, Jesus definitely does rule!!! At least when it comes to that assertion, I hope that BernieOD and myself will be able to agree.

Jesus never commanded a single Roman soldier to leave military service. He even praised one as having more faith than any Jew he came across.
When Roman Soldiers asked John the Baptist "What shall we do?" He commanded them to perform thier duties in a manner pleasing to God.
The Opostles had several Soldiers among thier believers, Cornelius the Centution was the most noted of them. None were commanded to leave military service and these were the occupying Romans.

You have no Biblical basis for commanding anyone serving in the military to leave the service, either by not re enlisting or deserting. We are all called to serve where we serve. I myself have no regrets over my service. It gave me the opportinity to work with people, taught me leadership skills, and have visitied nations showing me that we American truly don't know how blessed (Or cursed) We are with aour material abundance. It has also shown me that I cannot believe the propganda weather it be from the left or the right. Our relationships with other nations are not as simple as Loyal allies and bitter enemies. Our allies do not like us as much as we like to believe and our enemies, once again in the words of Pat Buchanan do not hate us for who we are but for the things we do. Being able to go ashore in various contries, fund one who speaks english, and discuss such matter opened my eyes in ways no other could.

Pushing Boots as an RCC (Drill instructor) Was an experience I wouldnt trade for anything. It taught me one lesson. "There is nothing wron with kids these days that a good leader cannot fix." Likewise, being an LPO (Leading Petty Officer) Of several work centers taught me the same thing.

There is much more to the military than fighting wars. When it comes to war, as in every other aspect or policy, we must apply disretion using Gods word as our guide. Should a Christian go to war? One cannot answer "Yes" or "No" as a blanket statement.

The Bible does not go into the latter days of Rome. However, Roman History does offer insight. One of the reasons Constantine issued the edict of tolerance was due to the fact that Christians were among the bravest fighters in his ranks, especially when the cause was defending the peole against the invading barbarians. The fact that they were willing to serve a the very government that once so terribly persecuted them impressed the Empire. I am not sure I could have done that. Seeing what has become of our nation, my reaction is "Don't call me back! We deserve whatever Bin Laden wants to do to us!" Going to war for the very government who once persecuted you might be just another way of witnessing.

 

[Ivy]

An interesting viewpoint. Would you be willing to apply it to your own nation though?

I personally think that an defeat in war can be an act of God but it doesn't mean that the people who implement it (or the other side's victors) are God's servants. Israel's enemies were allowed to attack Israel as a punishment for Israel's unfaithfulness, yet look what happened to them later.

Also, how can you witness to someone who you have just killed in battle?

I already do apply it to my own nation. The hardships we are now facing have been long-deserved-- and long-needed. God disciplines the child that he loves, and I am encouraged that he still cares about us enough to make us pay the consequences for those instances in which we haven't acted like a nation that fears the Lord. If you sow the wind, you reap the whirlwind, and the United States is not exempt from that.

The work of the Holy Spirit does not stop with someone's physical death; the witness goes on after the person dies. C.S. Lewis, for instance, said that death itself is part of our redemptive "treatment". Some people's souls are so far gone, that God permits the extreme intervention of death; he confronts them in this ultimately forcible way in order to rescue them and bring them to repentance. Another author calls it "severe mercy."

 

[BernieEOD]

I already do apply it to my own nation. The hardships we are now facing have been long-deserved-- and long-needed. God disciplines the child that he loves, and I am encouraged that he still cares about us enough to make us pay the consequences for those instances in which we haven't acted like a nation that fears the Lord. If you sow the wind, you reap the whirlwind, and the United States is not exempt from that.

The work of the Holy Spirit does not stop with someone's physical death; the witness goes on after the person dies. C.S. Lewis, for instance, said that death itself is part of our redemptive "treatment". Some people's souls are so far gone, that God permits the extreme intervention of death; he confronts them in this ultimately forcible way in order to rescue them and bring them to repentance. Another author calls it "severe mercy."

As this nation set out on a mission to liberate the world into democracy with the blessing of the false teachers of the neocon right, my prayers have always been that the Lord humble us now rather than judge us later.

 

[BernieEOD]

PEACE

Yes, Abraham is our father (of us faithful) and a father of many people and nations but do you honestly mean that e.g. the current borders in Africa are God-made? Some of the boundaries looks like they have been drawn with the aid of an ruler. The colonial powers drew borders that suited their needs and not the indigenous people's needs and concerns.

The boundaries the colonial powers created in Africa has imposed serious disadvantages and creating severe problems for the people in Africa.

Do you honestly believe that God inspired the Europeans to draw those lines, while they were enjoying their comfort in Europe at that time?

God made as in they way HE would have it? I would say no.

God allowed in order to allow the mess we create in order to show us that when we try to do his job for him by drawing up our own idea of times and boundries of nations? Yes.

 

[Blue sapphire]

Hi Bernie and other contributers,

Thanks for your input ...I have been away...visiting family. I have read most of the posts and would like to summarise some points for clarification.

1. You are saying that where police are needed to protect the communities within a nation....and defending the innocent....using force is Scriptural...as in Romans 13?

2. Serving in the military to defend your nation is Ok for Christians.

3. Using military force to invade other nations is questionable.

Does it depend on the circumstances....which means Christians serving in the military, have to question the authorities they serve under.

 

[BernieEOD]

1) Yes, we are wanred that government s have the power of the sword and if one does not wish to be on the recieving end of the sword, "Do what is right!"

2) As long as the policy of the government is not Unbiblical, I dont see a problem.
I served 26 years. 13 active in Submarines, another 13 in the reserved as an EOD Diver. (Bomb Disposal). Weather stalking a Soviet ballistic missile submarine to kill it before it launched its 12 nuclear tipped missiles at our cities or patrolling our harbors following 9-11 ready to kill enemy frogmen who would blow up our ships, or diving under ships to disarm any bomb they might have planted. I see nothing UnBiblical in the duties I was required to perform. If any of those SEALs were Christian, they did nothing wrong in putting those three pirates to the sword.

3) While ready, willing and able to repel any invader or rescue not only Americans but anyone attacked. It is being an invader where I draw the line. The power of the sword was given to governments to repel evil. When a nation starts a war, it is the agressor and I for one would not take part in it. I was allowed to retire and chose to do so rather than join our current policy.

 

[TG123]

To add more to this:

Pacifists who who put up passive resistance have thier place too. All too often, the evil are only brave when they have a weapon and their victims do not. When debating with one who believed all Christians should be killed or imprisoned, my response was. "Those of us who believe in fighting back will while those who do not will overflow your jails".

I would rather be killed or in jail then fight. Christians represented Jesus and caused the Romans to begin to seriously question their pagan beliefs when in the arenas they allowed themselves to be massacred while to their dying breath proclaiming Jesus as Saviour.
Constantine was a worldly and power hungry leader who used Christianity as an excuse to back up his ideas. Under his rule, Christians persecuted pagans. Now people who proclaimed themselves as "followers of Christ" began breaking into pagan temples and threatening them if they didn't convert. Constantine began the moral destruction of the church, a destruction from which it took hundreds of years to recover.

 

[Blue sapphire]

1) Yes, we are wanred that government s have the power of the sword and if one does not wish to be on the recieving end of the sword, "Do what is right!"

Agreed.

2) As long as the policy of the government is not Unbiblical, I dont see a problem.
I served 26 years. 13 active in Submarines, another 13 in the reserved as an EOD Diver. (Bomb Disposal). Weather stalking a Soviet ballistic missile submarine to kill it before it launched its 12 nuclear tipped missiles at our cities or patrolling our harbors following 9-11 ready to kill enemy frogmen who would blow up our ships, or diving under ships to disarm any bomb they might have planted. I see nothing UnBiblical in the duties I was required to perform. If any of those SEALs were Christian, they did nothing wrong in putting those three pirates to the sword.

On this point i have a question.

If the nation you serve under is setting up laws that are not Biblical, eg, banning the Bible from schools, legalising homosexuality and all that goes with it, legalising abortion and pornography, going soft on crime, etc..... should a Christian serve in it's military....when it may be that God is punishing that nation by sending an invading nation against it.

.

 

[BernieEOD]

That is why I chose to retire rather than continue serving. Actually, I was already two years past mandatory retirement anyway. Following 9-11, I wanted to continue serving and was petitioning for another reprieve. When our policy changed to one I could not agree with, I withdrew my petition.

 

[BernieEOD]

I would rather be killed or in jail then fight. Christians represented Jesus and caused the Romans to begin to seriously question their pagan beliefs when in the arenas they allowed themselves to be massacred while to their dying breath proclaiming Jesus as Saviour.
Constantine was a worldly and power hungry leader who used Christianity as an excuse to back up his ideas. Under his rule, Christians persecuted pagans. Now people who proclaimed themselves as "followers of Christ" began breaking into pagan temples and threatening them if they didn't convert. Constantine began the moral destruction of the church, a destruction from which it took hundreds of years to recover.

Not good to boast like that. Remember what happened to Peter?
Once again, my military experience has shown me that those who boast like that are usually the first to cower. The first time we had to dive under a ship for real answering a bomb threat, it was the toughest talking ones who suddenly couldnt dive because "Their ears couldn't clear".

 

[TG123]

Not good to boast like that. Remember what happened to Peter?
Once again, my military experience has shown me that those who boast like that are usually the first to cower. The first time we had to dive under a ship for real answering a bomb threat, it was the toughest talking ones who suddenly couldnt dive because "Their ears couldn't clear".

You have a point. Let me rephrase, I hope God would grant me the courage to die witnessing rather than fighting.
Peter did in the end suffer for Christ- he was whipped and imprisoned as recorded in the Book of Acts and then tradition reports he was crucified upside down for his faith in Jesus.
Speaking of potentially violent situations, I just got a job as a security guard and will be doing nightly patrols in some rough areas and will probably have to confront people who are breaking the law. I'm looking forward to it. It starts in mid June.

 

[LJSGM]

It's amazing once you realize what you're missing... Like a watch that you've lost but because you didn't realize, you're not going to go looking for it. But now that you know what it is you're missing, you go looking for, searching everywhere.