Sharon and the destruction of Israel : mission (almost) accomplished

[Aeschylus]

Could you provide information on this "Palestinian nation" that existed prior to wars against Isreal.

As I recall, these were lands seized from Egypt and Syria after they invaded Israel.

Oh so if yopur not part of a nation as recognized by jamesB, people are quite free to come and turf you off your land if they want it.

These lands were not seized from Egypt or Syria (inafc that's showing a rather worrying unawareness of the history of the area, ceratinly Israel has seized land from Egypt and Syria, but it did not do so in 1948), they were never part of Egypt or Syria, they were seized from the Palestinians.

 

[jameseb]

Oh so if yopur not part of a nation as recognized by jamesB, people are quite free to come and turf you off your land if they want it.

Hmm.... I didn't realize I constituted the world. I can dig that though.

However.... there has never been such a thing as a Palestinian nation. I'ts never existed.

These lands were not seized from Egypt or Syria (inafc that's showing a rather worrying unawareness of the history of the area, ceratinly Israel has seized land from Egypt and Syria, but it did not do so in 1948), they were never part of Egypt or Syria, they were seized from the Palestinians.

Incorrect. And I ask again... what Palstinian nation was this? Those lands were controlled by Syria and Egypt.....they were never marked on any recognized map as the 'Nation of Palestine.'

 

[ShadowAspect]

Could you provide information on this "Palestinian nation" that existed prior to the wars against Israel?

As I recall, these were lands seized from Egypt and Syria after they invaded Israel.

Okay, before we start rebuffing Zionist propaganda, could you let me know how far back we are going to have to go, because it will help with my research. so which line are you going to take? (personnally I like the propaganda from the 1950s).

a) That Palestine was empty desert populated by a few nomadic arabs?

b) That there never was a Palestinain state and the Palestinians never wanted a state until the creation of Israel?

c) There are no such thing as Palestinians?

d) Jordan is the Palestinian national homeland?

e) Other.

I think I have heard them all over the years. but with any luck you will suprise me.

 

[ShadowAspect]

Incorrect. And I ask again... what Palstinian nation was this? Those lands were controlled by Syria and Egypt.....they were never marked on any recognized map as the 'Nation of Palestine.'

Oh that one!

Yes Palestine was marked on the map, I own many such maps, My grandfather even has a medal marked 'Palestine' for service in that country.

 

[Aeschylus]

Hmm.... I didn't realize I constituted the world. I can dig that though.

However.... there has never been such a thing as a Palestinian nation. I'ts never existed.

I'm talking about individual palestinians who held the legal title to their land and made up the majority of the population in the area who were forced from their lands.

Incorrect. And I ask again... what Palstinian nation was this? Those lands were controlled by Syria and Egypt.....they were never marked on any recognized map as the 'Nation of Palestine.'

It's immaterial, it's like saying the Jews didn't exist before 1948. No the lands of Palestine prior to 1948 were controlled by Great Britain and before them the Ottoman empire (and before them a list of empires to numerous to mention), the arae was called 'Mandate Palestine' just before 1948.

 

[ShadowAspect]

Just because a country is controled by another, doesn't mean the country doesn't exist. try telling that to the Welsh.

btw, the Palestinians were represented and reconized under ottoman rule.

 

[BarbB]

...
I heard earlier this year that Israel couldn't afford to pay it's municiple workers and that they had gone without wages for weeks. There are whole Isreali towns that are becomming deserted as people leave in the face of 70% unemployment... caused by fear of suicide bombers. Defence is a major drain on the ecconomy, and the threat of terrorism prevents investment.

Do you have a credible citation for these "facts"?

.... Israel is offering large sums of money to Jews from Asia and Africa to settle in Israel but the take-up is fairly small, worse still, it seems that many of the Jews which have arrived from Eastern Europe are about as Jewish as Yassa Arafat, and with them have come the imfamous Russian Mafia. Drugs, prostitution and organized crime are becomming a real problem in Israel, which is already riddled with corruption and has a population which is brutalized by years of war. The people of Israel have become 'war weary' and there is a growing peace movement in Israel which opposes the hard line Zionists and is calling for a two state solution.

Many Christian groups are also financing the return of Jews from all over the world. There is even a minor aliya from New York City! Interesting that the English newspapers do not carry stories of these horrors. Could you cite some credible sources for these tidbits?

Plus, the constant assault on the Palestinian people has not led to them packing up and leaving for refugee camps in surrounding Arab countries. Their population is growing and they are defiant as ever. Terrorism hasn't slowed, it is more effective than it has been in years. Palestinian resolve is as strong as ever while the Israelis are cracking.

....

Speaking of which, why have the refugee camps not been absorbed, even after 50 years?

The only reason I feel that the palestinians might retain Gaza is that it was never Israel. I do think it should be given back to Egypt, though, as that's where it came from. Let them try to control the population!

 

[jameseb]

Okay, before we start rebuffing Zionist propaganda, could you let me know how far back we are going to have to go, because it will help with my research. so which line are you going to take? (personnally I like the propaganda from the 1950s).

Well, let's see..... since the world has pretty much decided that redrawing borders after WWII is a no-no, let's start right there ~ 1945. Further, since we're talking about land seized in the Yom Kippur War, let's put the end date at 1967.

So we now have a time frame from 1945 to 1967.

There ya go.

I think I have heard them all over the years. but with any luck you will suprise me.

Oh yes.. anything the Israelis say, and supporters of Israel, must simply be propaganda.... if only the truth were so easy to handwave away....

 

[Aeschylus]

Yikes Jamesb! you seriously need to look at your history! the Yom Kippur war was in 1973 in which didn't go to well for the Israelis and no land was seized (infact the end result of that war was the return of the Sinai to Egypt).

 

[jameseb]

I meant the Six Day War. After all the wars the Arabs launch in an attempt to erase Israel from the map, it gets a little hard to keep them all in perspective.

By the way, I notice there was no rebuttal outside of trying to score a "victory point" on my confusing the name of the war. That doesn't discount the truth, friend.

 

[BarbB]

Yikes Jamesb! you seriously need to look at your history! the Yom Kippur war was in 1973 in which didn't go to well for the Israelis and no land was seized (infact the end result of that war was the return of the Sinai to Egypt).

Well, not quite true as the city of Jerusalem is now under Israeli control!

 

[Aeschylus]

I meant the Six Day War. After all the wars the Arabs launch in an attempt to erase Israel from the map, it gets a little hard to keep them all in perspective.

By the way, I notice there was no rebuttal outside of trying to score a "victory point" on my confusing the name of the war. That doesn't discount the truth, friend.

Rebutaal of what exactly? I'm just pointing out that you are not fully au fait with the subject.

 

[Aeschylus]

Well, not quite true as the city of Jerusalem is now under Israeli control!

As it was before the Yom Kippur War.

 

[jameseb]

Rebutaal of what exactly? p

That there never was a Palestinian nation when the Israeli's seized these lands in question.

I'm just pointing out that you are not fully au fait with the subject.

And I'd suggest you watch how personal you start to get, mate... Simply confusing the names of the '73 and '67 wars doesn't make me unfamiliar with the subject... so don't make comments directed at my level of understanding again. Address the subject, not me....

 

[Aeschylus]

There was no independent Palestian country, I never claimed otherwise, i just fail to see the relevance.

And James I am not getting personal, okay the Yom Kippur /1967 war is an easy mistake to make, but it's just a general frustrtaion that many people are willing to jump in and defend Israel to the hilt before they are fully aware of the situation and it's background.

 

[jameseb]

There was no independent Palestian country, I never claimed otherwise, i just fail to see the relevance.

Than how were Palestinian lands stolen from the Irsaelis as some claim?

And James I am not getting personal, okay the Yom Kippur /1967 war is an easy mistake to make, but it's just a general frustrtaion that many people are willing to jump in and defend Israel to the hilt before they are fully aware of the situation and it's background.

Undermining one's remarks by suggesting they aren't "fully aware of the situation" isn't necessary though. Besides, I feel like people overlook the truth of the matter from my side of this debate too. I feel like they look at it from a skewed perspective (not surprisingly, the opposite side thinks the same of myself and others). We can 'war' with one another's posts all day... I just don't want to start sliding down the slippery slope of making comments directed at another person's ability to engage on a subject and their comprehension of a subject. If they're not fully versed on the subject, posts debating the issue should point that out to the readers. Did I make sense?

P.S.

And no hard feelings... obviouisly its a very passionate subject for debate. But I don't dislike people just because I disagree with them... just want you to know that.

 

[Aeschylus]

The answer to your quetsion is conatined in a previous post.


To be honest I feel this is going nowhere too.


edited to add: I try to avoid arguing for the sake of arguing, espeically about the past as really we should be looking forward to a peaceful resolution and not trying to play the blame game (thoufh I believ the firts stepp is that all parties should acknowledge what they ahve done to each other). The P-I issue is an issue that seem sto divide evryone and many feel passionate about.

 

[jameseb]

edited to add: I try to avoid arguing for the sake of arguing, espeically about the past as really we should be looking forward to a peaceful resolution and not trying to play the blame game (thoufh I believ the firts stepp is that all parties should acknowledge what they ahve done to each other). The P-I issue is an issue that seem sto divide evryone and many feel passionate about.

Well said.

Its easy to get caught up in the blame-game and tossing handgrenades back and forth when it comes to the Israel-Palestine conflict. As you said, focus should be on the future, a future where peace can be achieved and the interests of all parties considered and embraced with genuine respect and care.

 

[Sycophant]

Its easy to get caught up in the blame-game and tossing handgrenades back and forth when it comes to the Israel-Palestine conflict. As you said, focus should be on the future, a future where peace can be achieved and the interests of all parties considered and embraced with genuine respect and care.

Brilliant!

Now without trying to delve back into the past, or blame, or body counts - it's important for both sides to make concessions to the other side. Both sides need to admit the other has been wronged. Both sides need to admit fault. Both sides need to make efforts to reach out to the other side.

For the Israelis this will need to involve a withdrawl from settlements in Palestinian territories. Remaining there is inflamatory to the situation. For the Palestinians it will need to involve accepting the existance of the Israeli state, and making good-faith negotiations to reach a common ground.

For the rest of the world, especially the USA and Arab nations, it will need to involve the accepting of these issues too, and support for both sides in reaching an agreement.

The problem is, that minorities can disrupt and derail these efforts. A lone Palestinian suicide bomber, or a reckless IDF soldier has the power to destroy these works. It is important also for both sides to be unwilling to be deflected by the actions of a minority when the welfare of the majority is at stake. This is where things have gone wrong in the past, and where they stand the most chance of going wrong again.

I think the best example of the commitment of opposing parties to peace, in spite of the actions of a few, is in the Irish peace process. It is possible, and it must be a goal.

 

[Zoot]

Just because you have a different view, it doesn't make your view anymore sane than the next persons. One could say that once Palestine stops the suicide bombings, Israel could/would ease up..

One could say that, but it would sort of fly in the face of decades of Israel not easing up before Palestinian suicide bombings started a few years ago.


as it stands when some group is blowing themselves up every other day or every week in your cafe's, restaurants why would you scale back?

Well, you might ask what you did, and have been doing for 30 years, that made them angry and desperate and broken enough to blow themselves up.


Wouldn't you get an even tighter grip so that you could try and maintain the safety of your citizens?

The problem is that "tighter grip on your security" translates to "killing more Palestinian children" and that translates to "more Palestinians angry and desperate enough to blow themselves up". Israel officially apologising would be a good start, though by now I expect it would take an awful lot to convince Palestinians it was sincere.


Lastly, when that someone is a group that is on a binge to force you to leave your country, to get rid of the "jewish presence" from the middle east.. and yet it is your land.. wouldn't you fight as well? Then again, maybe not..

Quite right. When someone is a group that is on a binge to force you to leave your country, the land your family has been in for generations, to get rid of the "Arab presence" from your own land, bulldozing your homes, uprooting your olive trees, annexing your land with giant walls, building fortified settlements on your land, wouldn't you fight as well?

I'm not sure how your perspective takes into account the fact that attacks on civilians by Palestinians only started in the last 7 years, whereas Palestinian civilian deaths at the hands of Israeli forces have been going on for three decades. Do you really think this is an even fight? If a prominent Israeli leader (and his kids and anyone else standing near him) was assassinated by a Palestinian missile, would you see that in the same way as those scores of Palestinian leaders assassinated by gunship missiles?

10 years ago, people were saying, "If Israel doesn't stop doing this, the Palestinians are going to start doing something desperate, like suicide bombing."

I call my view the sane view because I think it takes into consideration the most factors. I think that a debate ranging from "Sharon shouldn't give anything to the Palestinians" to "Sharon shouldn't give anything without getting something in return" obscures the underlying assumption that Israel is either in the right, or at best is one of two equal parties in a bad situation. Israel as an institution owes the Palestinian people. The current rulers of Israel don't likely see it that way, but at some point in the future, they will, and reparations will be paid. If the world feels bad enough about it, they might make a state for the Palestinians. Movies will be made about it. Etc. The sooner this happens, the better.

The first smatterings of dissent are seen in the form of conscientious objectors from the IDF. It's going to grow. But the first step is this - more Israeli people realising the government that told them it was always right was actually wrong. The people always precede the government in objecting to institutionalised injustice.