Sharon and the destruction of Israel : mission (almost) accomplished

[Zoot]

For the Israelis this will need to involve a withdrawl from settlements in Palestinian territories. Remaining there is inflamatory to the situation. For the Palestinians it will need to involve accepting the existance of the Israeli state, and making good-faith negotiations to reach a common ground.

For the rest of the world, especially the USA and Arab nations, it will need to involve the accepting of these issues too, and support for both sides in reaching an agreement.

Arab states and the PLO have been arguing for a two-state solution, recognising Israel's existence, for a long time. CF's search engine has taken a turn for the worse, so I have no luck finding previously cited quotes, but when I get to work I'll post them. Israeli rejectionism has prevented a two-state solution. Israel refuses to recognise Arab recognition of Israel.

 

[KenH]

Netanyahu, however, dropped his bombshell moments after the vote, saying that he and ministers Livnat, Yisrael Katz and and Danny Naveh will quit the government within 14 days if Sharon does not agree to hold a national referendum.

Civil war in the Likud Party, eh? I imagine the Labor Party and the Shinui Party will enjoy that.

 

[MaryS]

How can anyone, who values freedom, have any admiration for Palestinians? They do honor killings and murder their own for sins. In Israel, people are allowed freedoms similar to what we enjoy in the USA. Not all of Israel is Jewish and the majority of Jewish that are there are quite secular.

I still believe that most of the media and the world is focused on whatever Israel does wrong and ignores the human rights injustice amongst Palestinians.

here's another side of the stories:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf19.html
(Myths & Facts - The Palestinian Uprisings)

 

[MaryS]

here's one more reason I will never understand why a true liberal can tolerate Palestines actions:

Members of the gay direct-action group OutRage! and the Queer Youth Alliance took part in a London demonstration urging greater respect for human rights in Palestine May 15. They also carried signs urging the Palestinian Authority to stop arresting and torturing homosexuals, which led to friction with other demonstrators.

When they arrived in Trafalgar Square to join the protest, the gay activists were surrounded by Islamic fundamentalists, Anglican priests and members of the Socialist Workers Party, the Stop the War Coalition and the Palestine Solidarity Campaign who called them “racists”, “Zionists” and “CIA and MI5 agents,” said OutRage!’s Peter Tatchell.
He said the protest organizers told the gay group to move to the rear of the
demonstration and, when they refused, the organizers blocked the gays’ placards and shouted down their interviews with reporters.

“We call on the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Palestinian Authority to condemn homophobia, uphold queer human rights and to order an immediate end to the abuse of lesbian and gay Palestinians,” said OutRage!’s Brett Lock.
“Gay Palestinians,” said Tatchell, “live in fear of arrest, detention without trial,
torture and execution at the hands of Palestinian police and security services.
They also risk abduction and so-called honor killing by vengeful family members and vigilante mobs, as well as punishment beatings and murder by Palestinian political groups such as Hamas and Yasser Arafat’s Fatah movement.
“For over 30 years I have supported the Palestinian struggle for national
liberation,” Tatchell said, “but I cannot remain silent while the PLO, Hamas and the Palestinian Authority are abducting, brutalizing and murdering lesbian and gay Palestinians.”

 

[Zoot]

I have admiration for the Palestinians in that it took three decades of having their civilians killed before they started responding in kind. I have admiration that they haven't just given up, because I'm quite certain that in the same situation, I would have. I have admiration for Israeli Defence Force members who risk ostracision and jail time in order to refuse to serve in the Palestinian Territories on moral grounds.

I don't have respect for Palestinian terrorism, just as I don't have respect for Israeli terrorism. I don't have respect for Israeli terrorism, just as I don't have respect for Palestinian terrorism.

Why is that so hard to understand? Have people been taking this "if you're not for us you're against us" stuff seriously?

 

[Zoot]

And again, why does "I denounce Israel's terrorism" translate to "I support Palestinian homophobia"?

 

[SolomonVII]

here's one more reason I will never understand why a true liberal can tolerate Palestines actions:

Members of the gay direct-action group OutRage! and the Queer Youth Alliance took part in a London demonstration urging greater respect for human rights in Palestine May 15. They also carried signs urging the Palestinian Authority to stop arresting and torturing homosexuals, which led to friction with other demonstrators.

When they arrived in Trafalgar Square to join the protest, the gay activists were surrounded by Islamic fundamentalists, Anglican priests and members of the Socialist Workers Party, the Stop the War Coalition and the Palestine Solidarity Campaign who called them “racists”, “Zionists” and “CIA and MI5 agents,” said OutRage!’s Peter Tatchell.
He said the protest organizers told the gay group to move to the rear of the
demonstration and, when they refused, the organizers blocked the gays’ placards and shouted down their interviews with reporters.

“We call on the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Palestinian Authority to condemn homophobia, uphold queer human rights and to order an immediate end to the abuse of lesbian and gay Palestinians,” said OutRage!’s Brett Lock.
“Gay Palestinians,” said Tatchell, “live in fear of arrest, detention without trial,
torture and execution at the hands of Palestinian police and security services.
They also risk abduction and so-called honor killing by vengeful family members and vigilante mobs, as well as punishment beatings and murder by Palestinian political groups such as Hamas and Yasser Arafat’s Fatah movement.
“For over 30 years I have supported the Palestinian struggle for national
liberation,” Tatchell said, “but I cannot remain silent while the PLO, Hamas and the Palestinian Authority are abducting, brutalizing and murdering lesbian and gay Palestinians.”

Arafat's brand of fascism goes beyond murdering gays. It has also included destroying all who would oppose him politically. The situation is now that when negotiation is most needed, there is no one on the Palestinian side that is in a position to negotiate.

With the Oslo accords breaking down with Arafat's call to martyrdom and intifada, Arafat has now become totally discredited, not just in the eyes of Israel's right wing, but in the eyes of all of Israel.

But any moderate voice for the Palestinian side has been virtually eliminated. This is not a situation of Israel's making. It was due only to Arafat's policies.

Unlike Ireland where the terrorists elements were cohesive, the militant Palestinian organizations are fragmented into many different groups. Moreover, to begin to negotiate with the largest of these groups, Hamas, would be to give this group- which calls for the destruction of Israel-, a legitimacy that most Israelis would not want it to have.

If the cause of many modern liberals was liberalism, their main criticism would not be against Israel, which has introduced many liberal values into the region, but would be leveled directly at the Palestinian political and religious leadership.

Unfortunately, the cause of today's liberal is not liberalism, but it is instead anti-Americanism. In the Middle East, they have found a useful ally for their anti-capitalist cause in the virulent anti-secular, anti-sestern jihadists. If these liberals were motivated more by their love of Palestinians, as they profess, and less by their blind hatred for American and Judeo-Christian values, they would be able to see what kind of anti-liberal monster that they are now crawling in bed with.

 

[Vylo]

Frankly I condemn the whole thing. Isrealis burning the Palestinians out of their homes, and the Palestinians have acted in less then moral fashions themselves.

The onion had the best idea: Have God flood the area and end the whole thing .

 

[SolomonVII]

Frankly I condemn the whole thing. Isrealis burning the Palestinians out of their homes, and the Palestinians have acted in less then moral fashions themselves.

The onion had the best idea: Have God flood the area and end the whole thing .

Yet since you don't believe in god(according to your faith icon anway), you have just descended into babbling nihilistic nonsense.

Since both Palestinians and Israelis share their failings with the rest of humanity, we who are still believers can be thankful that God's judgement upon us is infinitely more gracious and benevolent than the genocidal judgement just expressed by Vylo upon the peoples of this region.

 

[Vylo]

Do you know what the onion is? Hint: it's a joke.

 

[SolomonVII]

Do you know what the onion is? Hint: it's a joke.

Hint, jokes are supposed to be funny.

 

[mindlight]

Having read through these postings I am unsurprised at the depth of the divisions here as they mirror those of Israel

I know a man who worked with a church mission in Jerusalem briefly and did street evangelism there. He worked with a messianic Jewish congregation and with an Arab church and with a South Korean group also.

I know a man who remembers an Orthodox Jew in a street conversation spitting on him and threatening to punch this missionary man after he confronted him about the legal ethics of assaulting one of the missionaries smaller colleagues. Who remembers a poor Palestinian boy with some of his friends trying to rob the missionaries after they walked through the spring of Gihon. They refused to let the palestinians rob them but the leader of their team gave the Arab boys what little money he had as they were walking away from them.

But one abiding memory is a conversation he had with a young Jewish boy and his rowdy friends. As he handed him a tract which had Jesus prince of peace on it the Jewish boy asked why should he want to convert to the religion of an Arab. (the boy imagined Christianity like Islam to be an Arab religion). The boy said it with a sneer. This man I know said to him "Jesus was a Jew and his early disciples were Jews . The new Testament we Christians read was with the exception of two books written by Jews. Jesus Christ is the prince of Peace. I have seen how tall this dividing wall of hostility is between your peoples , but I can tell you there are Christians on both sides of this divide - Jew and Arab and only the Messiah will break this wall down and bring both sides the healing they long for." The boy went silent as did his friends, he looked at that man a moment and then he walked away. A seed was sown that day but how long until it comes to fruit?

The hurt is deep in Israel and even in the temporary peace of the 90s the hatred was still there in the background and peace was like a mask that hid a horrible ugliness. Both sides may benefit from hard headed negotiations and a cease fire but only Christ will heal these hurts and bring true peace to Israel

 

[the Colonel]

***MOD HAT ON***

Let's keep the discussion on topic, folks. Exchanges like Vylo's and Solomon's are not permitted. This is a friendly reminder of the FORUM RULES and the POLITICS FORUM RULES. Familiarize yourself with them. Warnings can and will be given. Thank you.

***MOD HAT OFF***

 

[Zoot]

I actually think Michael Moore had a pretty good suggestion in his open letter to Yasser Arafat. "Find those suicide bombers and convince them to lie down in front of bulldozers that are destroying Palestinian neighbourhoods to build Israeli settlements or walls, instead of committing murders. Make sure you have lots of international camera crews there."

 

[the Colonel]

I actually think Michael Moore had a pretty good suggestion in his open letter to Yasser Arafat. "Find those suicide bombers and convince them to lie down in front of bulldozers that are destroying Palestinian neighbourhoods to build Israeli settlements or walls, instead of committing murders. Make sure you have lots of international camera crews there."

Interesting proposal. People wouldn't be committing murders and retaliating, and Israel would get a lot of attention for trying to establish new, controversial settlements.

Interesting.

 

[Zoot]

Exactly. Everyone hearts Gandhi. International sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians wouldn't be tarnished with repulsion of the tactics of the suicide bombers (who don't represent all Palestinians in fact, but do in many people's minds). I mean, Rachel Corrie's murder sure got a lot of attention (though I don't know if she did in the States, actually). Though that was partly because she's a Westerner - her life counts for more in Western media.

 

[SolomonVII]

Interesting proposal. People wouldn't be committing murders and retaliating, and Israel would get a lot of attention for trying to establish new, controversial settlements.

Interesting.

Interesting, but as silly as only Michael Moore and his ilk can be. It is naive to think that Arafat has the heart of a Ghandi, or that the Islamic jihad of the Palestinian terroritsts has anything to do with peace.

But hey, seeing is believing. Arafat and the Muslim theocracy has had much success with encouraging little boys to expose themselves to the line in fire, and thereby to cause the liberal hearts of the western media to bleed profusely. Why not be a little more overt and strap a few bombs on them, to show the true intent.

 

[MattMarriott]

The western mass media wants us to believe that the issue is if Sharon is a "far-right" zionist or if he is "just" defending the interests of Israel.

That is the trick - keep people entertained with false questions, so that they don't get close to the real issue :

- is Sharon a traitor implementing an agenda of destroying Israel ?
Answer : yes.

- on which payroll is he then ?
answer : the western "democracies"

- why do western "democracies" have the destruction of Israel in their agenda ?
....

 

[Zoot]

The western mass media wants us to believe that the issue is if Sharon is a "far-right" zionist or if he is "just" defending the interests of Israel.

That is the trick - keep people entertained with false questions, so that they don't get close to the real issue :

- is Sharon a traitor implementing an agenda of destroying Israel ?
Answer : yes.

- on which payroll is he then ?
answer : the western "democracies"

- why do western "democracies" have the destruction of Israel in their agenda ?

He's on America's payroll, and America doesn't have the destruction of their own country-sized military base in its agenda. It would be a terrible waste of billions of dollars, for a start. Pulling the illegal settlements out of the Palestinian Territories isn't destroying Israel, it's putting an end to a crime. Of course, I'm certain Sharon has ulterior motives, perhaps preparing for the appearance of a full-scale war on the area.

 

[MattMarriott]

Just before, the nation of Israel conquered their FIRST city inside the Promised Land, JERICHO, their leader, Joshua, had an encounter with Israel´s Y´shua Messiah, their "Deliverer out of Zion" ....

Joshua 5:
13: And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
14: And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
15: And the captain of the LORD´s host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

Now....all these thousands of years later....

The nation of Israel is again about to have another encounter with their Messiah Y´shua....

Ezekiel 11:
8: Ye have feared the sword; and I will bring a sword upon you, saith the Lord GOD.
9: And I will bring you out of the midst thereof, and deliver you into the hands of strangers, and will execute judgments among you.
10: Ye shall fall by the sword; I will judge you in the border of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
11: This city shall not be your caldron, neither shall ye be the flesh in the midst thereof; but I will judge you in the border of Israel:
12: And ye shall know that I am the LORD: for ye have not walked in my statutes, neither executed my judgments, but have done after the manners of the heathen that are round about you.


Just after, the nation chooses to ´give back´ the ´FIRST´ of their inheritance......


Israel plans to hand over control of the Jordan Valley city of Jericho to the PA on Wednesday, Adar II 5, March 16, as the FIRST city given back to "the people of the land."

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=78446