Sexual intercourse mentioned before the Fall?

buzuxi02

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[
QUOTE=jckstraw72;64762988] St. John of Damascus, Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith 4.24, FC 37, p. 394

Virginity was practiced in Paradise … After the fall, … to keep the race from dwindling and being destroyed by death, marriage was devised, so that by the begetting of children the race of men might be preserved.


As we can see because of the 21st century's obsession with sex, many have been conditioned to not want to understand true theology, but even reject common sense! In fact it can only be the 21st century obsession with the sexual act that would teach before the fall man and woman would procreate on a finite planet (let alone in Eden) unto eternity.

Besides these great passages supplied by Jckstraw. I would like to include the Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians written in 90 AD. It parallels the above passage by St John of Damascus:

...Let us contemplate, beloved, the resurrection which is at all times taking place. Day and night declare to us a resurrection. The night sinks to sleep, and the day arises; the day [again] departs, and the night comes on.
Let us behold the fruits [of the earth], how the sowing of grain takes place. The sower103 goes forth, and casts it into the ground; and the seed being thus scattered, though dry and naked when it fell upon the earth, is gradually dissolved. Then out of its dissolution the mighty power of the providence of the Lord raises it up again, and from one seed many arise and bring forth fruit.


Let us consider that wonderful sign [of the resurrection] which takes place in Eastern lands, that is, in Arabia and the countries round about. There is a certain bird which is called a phœnix. This is the only one of its kind, and lives five hundred years. And when the time of its dissolution draws near that it must die, it builds itself a nest of frankincense, and myrrh, and other spices, into which, when the time is fulfilled, it enters and dies. But as the flesh decays a certain kind of worm is produced, which, being nourished by the juices of the dead bird, brings forth feathers. Then, when it has acquired strength, it takes up that nest in which are the bones of its parent, and bearing these it passes from the land of Arabia into Egypt, to the city called Heliopolis. And, in open day, flying in the sight of all men, it places them on the altar of the sun, and having done this, hastens back to its former abode. The priests then inspect the registers of the dates, and find that it has returned exactly as the five hundredth year was completed. (chapter 24-25)


There is no need for the begating of succesive generations without dying, for without death there is no urgency nor the need to raise up ones own offspring from his seed. It is a type of preservation of oneself from death. God if he so desired would have increased the human race in His own way, an increase which would have been a fixed finite number just like the angels.
 
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Johnnz

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The quotes from the Church Fathers are interesting. But given the post NT lives of such men, the well recognised influences of Greek thinking, its discomfort with the physical realm, and a negative view of human sexuality taught by many Greek physicians their imposition onto the Biblical texts of those interpretations is not at all surprising. References to Jewish teachings would be very relevant, as they would have formed the early milieu of the apostles and early Jewish Christians.

According to the Sefer haChinnuch, the central nature of this mitzvah is due to the fact that God desires for the world to be populated.[2] However, there is another Torah commandment known as onah (Heb: עונה) which obligates a man to provide sexual intercourse to his wife on a regular basis, regardless of whether they have already had children.
The Jewish sages recognized that the sexual need of mankind (also known as Yitzra De'arayot) is essential for perpetuating society, despite having its negative sides which may lead to sins. For this reason, Chazal's attitude and statements on the matter are dual, and they recognize two inclinations in mankind, the Yetzer hatov (the "Good inclination") and the Yetzer hara (the "evil inclination"), that can both influence sexuality and sexual behaviours. Maimonides discusses this dichotomy explicitly:
"A man's wife is permitted to him. Therefore a man may do whatever he desires with his wife. He may engage in relations whenever he desires, kiss any organ he desires, engage in vaginal or other intercourse or engage in physical intimacy without relations, provided he does not release seed in vain. Nevertheless, it is pious conduct for a person not to act frivolously concerning such matters and to sanctify himself at the time of relations, as explained in Hilchot Deot. He should not depart from the ordinary pattern of the world. For this act was [given to us] solely for the sake of procreation...
... Our Sages do not derive satisfaction from a person who engages in sexual relations excessively and frequents his wife like a rooster. This reflects a very blemished [character]; it is the way underdeveloped people conduct themselves. Instead, everyone who minimizes his sexual conduct is praiseworthy, provided he does not neglect his conjugal duties, without the consent of his wife"
—Mishneh Torah, Issurei Biah, 21:9,11
The basic Jewish positive attitude towards sex and sexuality within marriage is especially opposed to Western Christianity, which does not view the matter much in favor, due to a belief that sex has been contaminated by original sin.

In the perspective of traditional Judaism, sex and reproduction are the holiest of acts one can do, the act through which one can imitate God, "The Creator", and in order to preserve its sanctity there are many boundaries and guidelines. Within the boundaries, there are virtually no outright strictures, and it is in fact obligatory.

John
NZ
 
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ArmyMatt

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the Church Fathers don't have a problem with physicality or the physical realm, and in fact many fought against the idea that matter is evil or wrong. it is fallen, and redeemed, but not wrong. so no, they don't have the thinking that they are against the physical world.

you are actually saying that they follow many heresies we know they fought against.
 
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Johnnz

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you are actually saying that they follow many heresies we know they fought against.

I am not suggesting anything as radical as that. But that there were some extraneous influences, most notably Greek concepts, seems to be well attested to.

John
NZ
 
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ArmyMatt

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I am not suggesting anything as radical as that. But that there were some extraneous influences, most notably Greek concepts, seems to be well attested to.

John
NZ

they fought against heresies that talked about the physicality of the world in the negative, defended that the world is good, fallen, and redeemed (to quote Fr Alexander Schmemann), so I would love to know from them where they are clearly talking about the world as God created it, and the fallenness that man's disobedience caused, especially in regards to sex. I am all eyes if you can show anything.
 
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buzuxi

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Johnz,

Those quotes are pretty much in agreement with Orthodoxy. Not neccesarily related to the topic at hand.

As St Paul said, 'it is better to marry than to burn'. St John Chrysostom is considered an pre-eminent Father on the issue of marriage and family in Orthodoxy. Here is excerpts from one of St. John Chrysostom's Homily on marriage:


How become they one flesh? As if you should take away the purest part of gold, and mingle it with other gold; so in truth here also the woman as it were receiving the richest part fused by pleasure, nourishes it and cherishes it, and withal contributing her own share, restores it back a Man. And the child is a sort of bridge, so that the three become one flesh, the child connecting, on either side, each to other....Therefore to wit He said with accuracy of expression, not “they shall be one flesh” but joined together “into one flesh” (Genesis 2:2, Septuagint) namely, that of the child. What then? When there is no child, will they not be two? Nay, for their coming together has this effect, it diffuses and commingles the bodies of both. And as one who has cast ointment into oil, has made the whole one; so in truth is it also here.
I know that many are ashamed at what is said, and the cause of this is what I spoke of... The gift of God is insulted, the root of our generation… [For if you] art ashamed at these, surely then you condemn God who has thus decreed.
Homily on Ephesians
 
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Johnnz

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Concepts such as a soul existing within a body and that 'goes to heaven', a 'natural' vs 'spiritual' dichotomy, 'flesh' or 'carnality' too closely identified with our natural, physical desires are some examples. Also reason being of greater value and reliability than feelings/emotions, constructing a rational systematic theology and assent to such formulated doctrines rather than a narrative based revelation contained within the biblical stories are some examples very briefly stated.

John
NZ
 
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ArmyMatt

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Concepts such as a soul existing within a body and that 'goes to heaven', a 'natural' vs 'spiritual' dichotomy, 'flesh' or 'carnality' too closely identified with our natural, physical desires are some examples. Also reason being of greater value and reliability than feelings/emotions, constructing a rational systematic theology and assent to such formulated doctrines rather than a narrative based revelation contained within the biblical stories are some examples very briefly stated.

John
NZ

that's actually platonism, and you did not quote a Father to show that they were actually under the influence you say they were
 
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jckstraw72

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St. Paul and the Lord Himself proclaimed that it is better to be a virgin, for those who are able to accept this hard word. This is not a hatred of the flesh, but a war against the passions of the flesh. We must not confuse asceticism of the fallen flesh with hatred of the flesh.
 
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while there could have been some influence of platonism on the fathers, they for the most part fought against the false dichotomy of the physical and the spiritual, that lowered the 1st and elevated the 2nd. The obsession with sexuality and sexualizing everything with a negative view of the sex act (and the acompanying duality between the spiritual and physical) is very much a recent and Western phenomena (western europe/america). If one has any familiarity with Orthodoxy, one would be struck by the "physicality" of our faith, especially in how we believe that through matter, salvation comes to us. We express our faith through physical means (burning incense, making the sign of the cross, kissing icons and relics, blessings with holy water, etc). Physical actions that when encountered by many Western Christians, especially of the Protestant persuasion, causes them to recoil from what they see and become very uncomfortable.
This duality also causes westerners to see a false dichotomy between science and faith where there isn't any, leading many to atheism.

"Concepts such as a soul existing within a body and that 'goes to heaven', a 'natural' vs 'spiritual' dichotomy, 'flesh' or 'carnality' too closely identified with our natural, physical desires are some examples. Also reason being of greater value and reliability than feelings/emotions, constructing a rational systematic theology and assent to such formulated doctrines rather than a narrative based revelation contained within the biblical stories are some examples very briefly stated."

We as Orthodox reject most of this, and this has never been a part of our praxis and doctrine. What you described is a Western Christian phenomena.
 
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I would say though:

Also reason being of greater value and reliability than feelings/emotions-

Well, in some sense, reason is of greater value than feelings/emotions. If you have well trained reasoning skills which our school systems are supposed to be teaching our children, then yes, it is of greater value. Our feelings and emotions are more often then not swayed by our sinful passions, so while they can be helpful in some circumstances, they really cannot be a good arbitrator of what is true and right. Our society however, values feelings and emotions over reason and logic, almost to the exclusion of reason/logic.

"constructing a rational systematic theology and assent to such formulated doctrines rather than a narrative based revelation contained within the biblical stories"-

The Orthodox Christian faith is based on revelation, not on doctrinal formulations. However, at times, we needed to formulate our doctrines for the precise reason that others taught heresies, causing us to articulate and formulate our doctrines. Had Arius or Nestorius for example, not spread their heresies, we may not have had to come together in a council to formulate the doctrines of the Trinity and the humanity/divinity of Christ.
 
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