Sexual intercourse mentioned before the Fall?

[ChirpChirp]

I've always been very confused by something. A lot of the time I hear that sex is somehow a bad thing which only occurs because of the Fall because before Adam and Eve were innocent etc.....but the thing is that they were told to "have many children, so that your descendants will live all over the earth..." before they ever disobeyed. So how were they meant to have children if presumably they only had sexual intercourse because they ate the forbidden fruit?

My own theory is that they did know about sex but in an "innocent" way that could not be turned into horrible sexual things like rape etc...if that makes any sense

 

[jckstraw72]

the Fathers do consistently teach that sex is a post-Fall reality, but that does NOT make it bad. it is still given to us by God - it was just given as a necessity and a concession to our fallenness. the Fathers simply say they would have multiplied in some way unknown to us.

 

[ChirpChirp]

the Fathers do consistently teach that sex is a post-Fall reality, but that does NOT make it bad. it is still given to us by God - it was just given as a necessity and a concession to our fallenness. the Fathers simply say they would have multiplied in some way unknown to us.

so does that mean that all the animals changed the way they multiplied too? It sounds a bit ridiculous...why is it that they HAVE to have had another way of multiplying? If sex is not inherently bad wouldn't it have been acceptable?

It doesn't make sense to say that God created Man and Woman otherwise, they would've just been some sort of unisex beings that only really became man and woman after the Fall

Or did God create sex while knowing that eventually the Fall would occur? If they had never disobeyed were the rest of us never meant to exist?

 

[Rubiks]

I think God would find it extremely offensive to say sex, essentially one of his creations occurs because the fall. It is a beautiful gift from God, though it belongs in a marriage. Not sure why so many christians, and a lot of religious people in general, are opposed to sex.

 

[ArmyMatt]

so does that mean that all the animals changed the way they multiplied too? It sounds a bit ridiculous...why is it that they HAVE to have had another way of multiplying? If sex is not inherently bad wouldn't it have been acceptable?

well, because the animals fell too when we did. the reason that they would have to change their way of multiplying (like we did) was because the whole cosmic order was different back then.

It doesn't make sense to say that God created Man and Woman otherwise, they would've just been some sort of unisex beings that only really became man and woman after the Fall

no, it was just different, and done in a way beyond what we comprehend now.

Or did God create sex while knowing that eventually the Fall would occur? If they had never disobeyed were the rest of us never meant to exist?

He created gender, the sexual act was just not what we know now. it would have been totally painless and passionless, because there would have been no physical pleasure in the act itself. so sex was always part of the plan, as it were. it's just that since you are looking at a pre fallen condition, there is no way to know what it would have been like.

 

[InnerPhyre]

Sex, like most things, can be good or bad, depending on the circumstances. Whether it occurred before the fall is a matter of some speculation.

 

[buzuxi02]

I've always been very confused by something. A lot of the time I hear that sex is somehow a bad thing which only occurs because of the Fall because before Adam and Eve were innocent etc.....but the thing is that they were told to "have many children, so that your descendants will live all over the earth..." before they ever disobeyed. So how were they meant to have children if presumably they only had sexual intercourse because they ate the forbidden fruit?

Never heard that sex was a bad thing, If it were none of us should have been born, granted man is hypocritical and weak in the flesh so not practising what he preaches ifs common. As you say before the fall man was innocent like children and there was no awareness of sexual procreation. Man was only meant to live all over the earth precisely because he was banished from paradise. Eden was shut up and man was forced to go forth into the world. That's why sexual intercourse first occurs after the fall.

Because of sin, God in his mercy decided to allow man to physically die so he would not live in sin forever. Death is the very vehicle which puts an end to sin. And because of that each man survives through his offspring. This is why in ancient times it was even accepted for a man to raise an offspring for his deceased brother by impregnating his brothers widow.

 

[truefiction1]

Господи Иисусе Христе, Сыне Божий, помилуй мя грешнаго.


(much better)

 

[ChirpChirp]

Господи Иисусе Христе, Сыне Божий, помилуй мя грешнаго.


(much better)

??

 

[OGM]

No one really knows everything that was different before the fall.

 

[Johnnz]

Greek elements infiltrated Christian teaching over the centuries. Jewish beliefs saw sex in a far more wholesome context that many early church fathers. That later tradition saw Song of Songs as an allegory, since holy writ could never be so explicitly sexual and sensual in their opinion. Modern scholarship has returned to a more literal understanding. It is sad that many Christian remain so uneasy about sex, as that greatly hinders our ability to speak into a sexually liberal society.

Obviously humanity was meant to procreate - that mandate was given pre-Fall. Jesus, in His incarnation was sexually male, yet unfallen.

John
NZ

 

[ArmyMatt]

Greek elements infiltrated Christian teaching over the centuries. Jewish beliefs saw sex in a far more wholesome context that many early church fathers. That later tradition saw Song of Songs as an allegory, since holy writ could never be so explicitly sexual and sensual in their opinion. Modern scholarship has returned to a more literal understanding. It is sad that many Christian remain so uneasy about sex, as that greatly hinders our ability to speak into a sexually liberal society.

Obviously humanity was meant to procreate - that mandate was given pre-Fall. Jesus, in His incarnation was sexually male, yet unfallen.

John
NZ

right, but procreation in the prefallen state would have been virginal. we don't get how this could happen because we live in a post Fall universe.

 

[OGM]

right, but procreation in the prefallen state would have been virginal.

Why?

 

[buzuxi02]

There are 4 creation stories about humanity in Genesis:

1. That we are created in the image and likeness of God.
2. That man was made from the dust off the earth and the spirit of God breathed into his nostrils animating this anthropos.
3. That He made them male and female
4. That He blessed them to go out and multiply.

The fourth is a post fall development. This is obvious from the text but also human experience where most cultures named newborns after a grandparent. It represented rebirth, the whole myth about the phienix rising is based on this concept.

 

[Johnnz]

right, but procreation in the prefallen state would have been virginal. we don't get how this could happen because we live in a post Fall universe.

We don't know that. And, in my opinion, unless there is some prior negativity about sex as we know it today, there is little else to support such a view. Was animal procreation virginal as well? That can only be conjecture at best.

Jesus was circumcised according to Jewish custom. He was the only example of true humanity this world has ever seen. That implies genital functioning prior to the Fall.

John
NZ

 

[buzuxi02]

We don't know that. And, in my opinion, unless there is some prior negativity about sex as we know it today, there is little else to support such a view.

John
NZ

You will have to read the Fathers then. There is no negativity about sex instead there is an obsession about it in our modern times, hence you automatically think of some taboo something you wouldnt of considered of you were born a few decades ago. The only reason you would project such a strange opinion is if your surroundings have influenced you to believe that.

There would be no reason to procreate in the conventional sense pre fall because there would be no reason to pass on our hereditary DNA. There simply cannot be procreation without death, not only on theological grounds but on comnon sense. Without death without the foodchain the ever multiplying species simply cannot sustain thenselves on a finite earth. Scripture is clear that Adam and Eve were innocent, upon eating of the fruit their eyes were opened and they noticed there nakedness. Once exiled from Eden, Adam went and knew his wife. Adam immediately began to fulfill the command to go out and multiply and subdue the earth. Obviously the command wouldn't make sense inside the garden where there is nothing to subdue nor anywhere to go out into. And that's why Adam knew his wife after the fall and not before it. Death puts an end to sin but you live on through your seed as a new sinless babe. This cycle of death and (Re)birth foreshadows the resurrection to come. As man dies corrupt be is raised anew.

 

[jckstraw72]

the only true Man was conceived virginally. case closed.

 

[ArmyMatt]

We don't know that. And, in my opinion, unless there is some prior negativity about sex as we know it today, there is little else to support such a view. Was animal procreation virginal as well? That can only be conjecture at best.

Jesus was circumcised according to Jewish custom. He was the only example of true humanity this world has ever seen. That implies genital functioning prior to the Fall.

John
NZ

yes we do, the unfallen Adam and Eve were created virginally, the Son was both born eternally from the Father virginally and came forth from Mary virginally. it's actually the only unfallen way of procreating in Scripture

 

[OGM]

yes we do, the unfallen Adam and Eve were created virginally, the Son was both born eternally from the Father virginally and came forth from Mary virginally. it's actually the only unfallen way of procreating in Scripture

But even Adam & Eve were male and female.

 

[jckstraw72]

But even Adam & Eve were male and female.

because God had foreknowledge of the Fall