Serbia and holocausts, etc.

[gurneyhalleck1]

Hi Everybody,

I was having a conversation with a Serbian Orthodox priest who said to me that the massacre at Srebrenica and other holocausts of Albanians in Kosovo never happened, but rather were really just concocted by the media to brainwash Westerners into thinking the U.N. should intervene.

This bothered me, frankly, A LOT.

I keep hearing support for Russia invading the Ukraine, denials that any "ethnic cleansing" took place in the former Yugloslavia by Serbs, and frankly I'm bothered by it. It seems intellectually dishonest.

I'm not a fan of Islam or Albania, and I know they've done their own horrific damage and terrorism, but it just seems like something I've noticed in some quarters of Orthodoxy is to naively defend a country as 100% innocent and well-intentioned JUST because it's Orthodox. This priest told this to me as if Serbs COULD NEVER commit heinous crimes, solely because they're Orthodox Christians! Orthodox Christians can't do things like that!

Do we run the risk, as Orthodox Christians, of looking like we are insensitive to mass murder and mayhem and willing to back people just because they're of our religion?

I don't post this to provoke a war here or to get personal and nasty or uncharitable gunslinging in TAW, but I sincerely have to ask, are we biased in favor of Orthodox countries at times and unwilling to see things objectively?

Just trying to be intellectually honest.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I imagine some can, gurney. Lord have mercy on those that do

 

[Anhelyna]

Gurney - there are sadly some folk who will never believe things like that - no matter what proof they are given . Quite how they can ignore facts like that I do not know .

 

[seekingfreedom]

I did a lot of research on Kosovo years ago and everything I saved is now gone. I just googled a quick article and if you are interested in learning more, you might want to google "the truth about Kosovo" and make up your own mind.
Serb killings 'exaggerated' by west | World news | The Guardian

 

[E.C.]

Call it motherland nostalgia, diaspora ignorance or whatever you want, but sadly yes, that mentality does exist.

In my opinion people with that mentality fail to remember that such wars took place after 45+ years of screwed up Communism. I don't care how devout the secret Christians are in such situations, but the rest of the country certainly will be effected by four decades of a system that doesn't teach the sanctity of life. Those in the "diaspora" need to realize it if they do not already.


Srebrenica (Bosnia - not Albania) I believe did indeed happen. Some of the stuff between Serbia and the Albanian Mafia that took place in the late 90s I'm not so sure about.

Final note; just because a country has historically been Orthodox for many years does not mean that it is living with 100% piety and devotion. Some of those countries view their Orthodoxy in similar ways that Ireland viewed its Catholicism.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Well this is the way I feel, but if you talk to several people at my parish, mostly clergy, they'll say that most of this stuff never happened and that it's Western propaganda and Muslim pity. They also act like the Croats and Serbs is a war where one is righteous and holy, the other scum sometimes. I hear this a lot there, and I won't lie---it bothers me!

When I was in high school, I remember in 1992 our Catholic parish took in hundreds of Croat teens and children for a while to keep here in safety during the war. They were so damaged. I went to school with a Serbian exchange student, a girl who really had the hots for me. I liked her as a friend, but didn't feel the same way about her. Anyway, she was constantly hanging around my friends and I, and as we'd walk by the Croat teens, they got this look in their eye, like the hair on their necks was standing up scared, and this face was like, "keep her AWAY from us!" They always talked about Serb massacres and cold-bloodedness. They were scared to death. Our priests and parishioners cried like babies the night we had Mass and had to say goodbye to these Croats. They were going to have to be returned to Yugoslavia in the midst of a war. It was sad.

That whole war was sad. I just don't understand why people here in the States would think Serbia is so incapable of these things. There are evil Orthodox Christians just like there are evil Muslims, Protestants, Catholics, and everything else....I know the Croats have done bad things to Serbia, and the reverse is true. Why can't we be intellectually honest?

Call it motherland nostalgia, diaspora ignorance or whatever you want, but sadly yes, that mentality does exist.

In my opinion people with that mentality fail to remember that such wars took place after 45+ years of screwed up Communism. I don't care how devout the secret Christians are in such situations, but the rest of the country certainly will be effected by four decades of a system that doesn't teach the sanctity of life. Those in the "diaspora" need to realize it if they do not already.


Srebrenica (Bosnia - not Albania) I believe did indeed happen. Some of the stuff between Serbia and the Albanian Mafia that took place in the late 90s I'm not so sure about.

Final note; just because a country has historically been Orthodox for many years does not mean that it is living with 100% piety and devotion. Some of those countries view their Orthodoxy in similar ways that Ireland viewed its Catholicism.

 

[E.C.]

That whole war was sad. I just don't understand why people here in the States would think Serbia is so incapable of these things. There are evil Orthodox Christians just like there are evil Muslims, Protestants, Catholics, and everything else....I know the Croats have done bad things to Serbia, and the reverse is true. Why can't we be intellectually honest?

There were no winners in that war. As joyous as I am that Father Time caught up with most of the jerks who caused it, there is still quite an ultra-nationalistic air in all countries (a bit more Croatia than Bosnia or Serbia).

The problem was that Yugoslavia broke up too quickly. There's a great book on it called, "The Fall of Yugoslavia: the Third Balkan War" by British journalist Misha Glenny on this subject. I highly recommend it.


Anyway, one thing that I've noticed with some Orthodox priests in the US who are very........ "ethnic" (I hate using the word in this case) is that they absolutely can not see their historic homeland doing any wrong. It would be as if as Americans we were in Iran and denied that the CIA was behind the 1953 coup in Iran. There will never be intellectual honesty with these people. The Church Fathers talk about some sinners who are so prideful that they will never see their sin. For these people, their sin may be nationalism to the point of blindness. It is their struggle. Pray for them.

We do the same thing here in the states. In the history books all they talk about is what the Serbs did to the Croats and the Muslims. They never talk about what the Croats did to the Serbs.

 

[seekingfreedom]

I don't doubt anything you say about your student. Yes, Serbs are mainly Orthodox and Croats are Catholic. What does that have to do with anything? I see the people-you, me, everyone, in all these wars, on all sides everywhere, as pawns in the hands of powerful elite that want to further their agenda for their power and greed.
They would love to see Orthodox, Catholic, and Muslims kill each other.

 

[Lukaris]

As Gurney & others have said., this is truly sad. I think there are some people who might think the Assad tyrants are valid defenders of Syrian Orthodox Christians also. While it is right to oppose warmongers & dangerous meddlers like Sen. John McCain who want to arm jihadists, the regime is also evil & murderous. I have asked a couple Syrians in our local church, & they told me the regime is evil but Syrian Orthodox Christians try to avoid conflict (overall). Last fall we had a Jesuit group held a fundraiser at our church for Syrian relief & told us of Moslem Red Crescent relief workers alongside Orthodox, Catholic, & Protestant Christian relief workers have been gunned down by jihadist & regime murderers.

 

[Thekla]

The fuel for denial of what actually happened is often found in the discovery of the opposite side's distortions - and deliberate obfuscation of counter-facts or the deliberate aim to not report the whole story. Ie, the deliberate distortions undermine the credibility of reporting, throwing the entire narrative (including facts contained therein) into doubt.

Certainly there were horrors committed in the break-up of Yugoslavia. Unfortunately, some of them were never reported in the west and others were exaggerated - and this reporting aligned with supporting our interests.

Given that this has been the case for many, many decades (for example, the inaccurate denial of massacres in Central America by parties trained, funded, and supported by the US - as in the massacre at El Mazote) makes the OP's described position of denial all the more reasonable.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

As long as people are people, evil and good can be done by anyone

 

[buzuxi02]

It was the exagerated claims to put blame on one side. Personally I don't believe in the just war theory, the reason is irrelevant. I'm obligated to defend and pray for the victory of the Orthodox party regardless of whose at fault. Thus whether EU or NATO or America , my prayers go to the Serbs. Afterall blood is thicker than water.

 

[Lukaris]

If this was World War 2, when "traditional" Orthodox Romanians & Bulgarians were allied with Nazis who murdered Orthodox Greeks & Serbs, which Orthodox gets prayed for if blood is thicker? What about Galatians 3:28 & 1st Timothy 2:1 etc.?

 

[buzuxi02]

During the empire, everyone prayed for the emperor to defeat the enemy. It was irrelevant who was at fault, any repercussion could be dealt with after the victory. In traditional Orthodox countries a petition in the liturgy prays for the defeat of enemies. This is omitted from the liturgy in non-Orthodox countries.
If there is war between two Orthodox countries then we will see when we cross that bridge.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Even if the Orthodox are massacring people?

It was the exagerated claims to put blame on one side. Personally I don't believe in the just war theory, the reason is irrelevant. I'm obligated to defend and pray for the victory of the Orthodox party regardless of whose at fault. Thus whether EU or NATO or America , my prayers go to the Serbs. Afterall blood is thicker than water.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Amen. Buzuxi's post gave me the shivers.

If this was World War 2, when "traditional" Orthodox Romanians & Bulgarians were allied with Nazis who murdered Orthodox Greeks & Serbs, which Orthodox gets prayed for if blood is thicker? What about Galatians 3:28 & 1st Timothy 2:1 etc.?

 

[buzuxi02]

Its not pretty, but that's the reality. If a resurgent native american population began to retake their lands through violent uprisings, they would have justifiable reasons historically, but we would all still wish them defeat.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

But I wouldn't pull for the Americans if they were dropping mustard gas on said Indians or leaving their little babies in a ditch in piles of corpses coated in blood. There is war, and there is attempted annihilation/holocaust. I understand war; I don't comprehend holocaust. I don't care if they're Orthodox. Do you think Our Lord would "pull" for the Serbs just because they're chrismated even though they're massacring village after village?

I hate Islam, but to slaughter Muslims wholesale....talk about imperiling your soul! Imagine if Jesus had that attitude against the "bad guy" Romans who were nailing Him to a tree....

We are called to stand up for justice no matter the religion. Personally, I find homosexuality an abomination, but I am sickened to read about African countries that are executing groups of men caught in gay amorous situations. Awful! The ends don't justify the means, and we can't play team sport religious sides if our side is playing Hitler.

I'm not happy with what I'm seeing the Russians pulling in Ukraine, but I'm sure this will go into the ethnic team sport thing, too. Sigh....

Its not pretty, but that's the reality. If a resurgent native american population began to retake their lands through violent uprisings, they would have justifiable reasons historically, but we would all still wish them defeat.

 

[buzuxi02]

Even if the Orthodox are massacring people?

There should be rule of law of course. But human nature strives for self preservation. If a bully constantly humiliates you , you either fight back or retreat. The end game is either victory or defeat.

I think dropping bombs on civilians in WW2 was an act of cowardice. Yet the alternative meant, " better them than us" How come all the self righteous hippocrites have never mentioned war crimes for such an act on innocent civillians? Has anyone accused there great grandfathers who were ww2 vets of genocide? No, because the method of victory was irrelevant, victory for your own preservation alone mattered.

 

[David Waffen]

Hi Everybody,

I was having a conversation with a Serbian Orthodox priest who said to me that the massacre at Srebrenica and other holocausts of Albanians in Kosovo never happened, but rather were really just concocted by the media to brainwash Westerners into thinking the U.N. should intervene.

This bothered me, frankly, A LOT.

I keep hearing support for Russia invading the Ukraine, denials that any "ethnic cleansing" took place in the former Yugloslavia by Serbs, and frankly I'm bothered by it. It seems intellectually dishonest.

I'm not a fan of Islam or Albania, and I know they've done their own horrific damage and terrorism, but it just seems like something I've noticed in some quarters of Orthodoxy is to naively defend a country as 100% innocent and well-intentioned JUST because it's Orthodox. This priest told this to me as if Serbs COULD NEVER commit heinous crimes, solely because they're Orthodox Christians! Orthodox Christians can't do things like that!

Do we run the risk, as Orthodox Christians, of looking like we are insensitive to mass murder and mayhem and willing to back people just because they're of our religion?

I don't post this to provoke a war here or to get personal and nasty or uncharitable gunslinging in TAW, but I sincerely have to ask, are we biased in favor of Orthodox countries at times and unwilling to see things objectively?

Just trying to be intellectually honest.

Here is something that no one is willing to say for fear of being a holocaust denier.

The Nazis, no doubt, hated Jews and wanted to enslave them and eventually exterminate them. They wanted to exterminate all people of eastern Europe to create a Germany from France to the Urals. They committed mass murders, they had gas trucks, and soldiers gunned down Jews and others.

One of the issues that I question, and merely question, is that concentration camps were intended to be places of extermination. Concentration camps, from all the data we have, were not designed with mass extermination in mind. They had individual incinerators for bodies.

What bothers me is that certain exaggerations of history are now considered factual and cannot, for sensitivity reasons, be questioned. Germans were known for technology and productivity, and yet concentration camps were not equipped for mass murder. When the camps were liberated, they found starving Jews, far beyond any value in terms of work or production.

Without a doubt, Nazis and others in the east did horrible things and massacred millions, but I wish we could honestly explore history someday. When we can answer questions, like, why were Jews found in concentration camps that were not productive for the Nazis?

Had the Nazis been successful, they would all be dead, but I think our history is a bit skewed.