Self-pleasure as a sin

[kopilo]

Thanks. Guys don't realize that girls have some of the same issues. Like it's exclusive to them. Some things are, but definetely not this. It's just harder for girls to talk about it because people don't expect it from us.

Sorry but our issue with this topic generally tends to be a little more physically visible and hence sociably more embarrasing.. *cough*

 

[littlebritches71435]

I was listening to this guy speak today about why masturbation is a sin for men. He basically said that becuz when a man [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] during masturbation the sperm isn't intended to cause conception so it is a sin to touch in under those circumstances. What he was saying didn't refer to me becuz i am female. But the thing is that i touch too. I had never heard of this being a sin in my life but that could be becuz i've never really conversed about the subject. I do think that if its a sin for men as the guy was saying then it should be a sin for women also. I was just wondering if this is really true. Does anyone know where it says it is a sin in the Bible?

Truely I have no clue, but what I think he should say is if you are to do it to one another as a sexual pleasure, Now I know for sure thats a sin because its a lustful pleasure that may lead into pre-marital sex.
Littlebritches71435

 

[Hollyoz]

I was listening to this guy speak today about why masturbation is a sin for men. He basically said that becuz when a man [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] during masturbation the sperm isn't intended to cause conception so it is a sin to touch in under those circumstances. What he was saying didn't refer to me becuz i am female. But the thing is that i touch too. I had never heard of this being a sin in my life but that could be becuz i've never really conversed about the subject. I do think that if its a sin for men as the guy was saying then it should be a sin for women also. I was just wondering if this is really true. Does anyone know where it says it is a sin in the Bible?

I've read that it can become sinful as it is self gratification, something of the flesh. We are supposed to be of the spirit, not the flesh. We are also not supposed to lust, or overindulge in things. This often is very closely linked to masturbation.

 

[kopilo]

Truely I have no clue, but what I think he should say is if you are to do it to one another as a sexual pleasure, Now I know for sure thats a sin because its a lustful pleasure that may lead into pre-marital sex.
Littlebritches71435

As earlier stated in this thread masturbation DOES NOT have to be lustful. Also masturbation is a solo act, if someone else "masturbates for you" that is foreplay, big difference. I'm also unaware that humans could have sexual intercourse with themselves.

 

[Jedi]

I've read that it can become sinful as it is self gratification…

So… if something feels good, it must be sinful? We can’t do anything we enjoy? Anything that brings us gratification or pleasure is synonymous with sin? I don’t know about that…

something of the flesh

In the sense that you’re using the phrase “of the flesh,” you could just as well condemn marital sex as well. In reality, the phrase “of the flesh” is always used as a reference to seeking some base desire in opposition to God, but if that’s how you meant to use the phrase here, you’d only be begging the question, basically saying “It’s against God because it’s against God.”

We are supposed to be of the spirit, not the flesh.

I don’t know about you, but I have flesh that covers my bones. Again, enjoying physical pleasures does not mean we fall into that category of scripture that speaks of people being “of the flesh,” since nowhere does scripture equate that phrase with mere “physical pleasure.”

We are also not supposed to lust, or overindulge in things. This often is very closely linked to masturbation.

According to whom? Scripture? Out of all the detailed laws and sexual acts forbidden (some quite bizarre), masturbation is never once mentioned, never mind forbidden. Odd that God would forget to outlaw such a common practice as masturbation when He went through great lengths to outlaw even the most unusual sexual practices, if indeed masturbation was inherently wrong. The omission of masturbation in this situation speaks volumes for its innocence.

 

[Tink]

So… if something feels good, it must be sinful? We can’t do anything we enjoy? Anything that brings us gratification or pleasure is synonymous with sin? I don’t know about that…



In the sense that you’re using the phrase “of the flesh,” you could just as well condemn marital sex as well. In reality, the phrase “of the flesh” is always used as a reference to seeking some base desire in opposition to God, but if that’s how you meant to use the phrase here, you’d only be begging the question, basically saying “It’s against God because it’s against God.”



I don’t know about you, but I have flesh that covers my bones. Again, enjoying physical pleasures does not mean we fall into that category of scripture that speaks of people being “of the flesh,” since nowhere does scripture equate that phrase with mere “physical pleasure.”



According to whom? Scripture? Out of all the detailed laws and sexual acts forbidden (some quite bizarre), masturbation is never once mentioned, never mind forbidden. Odd that God would forget to outlaw such a common practice as masturbation when He went through great lengths to outlaw even the most unusual sexual practices, if indeed masturbation was inherently wrong. The omission of masturbation in this situation speaks volumes for its innocence.

AMEN!

For His glory!
Tink

 

[fandera]

Did anyone quote this yet?

3But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. 4Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.£ 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7Therefore do not be partners with them. (Eph 5 - NIV)

I'm trying to think of some of the things that our culture has accepted that we would be ashamed to do in the church. I have recently read an article that states that if one can redeem the act by praising God during and afterwards, than it must be an "okay" act. Like watching a sunset (something that gives pleasure and we can thank God) or kissing your spouse/girfriend/boyfriend (something that can be done in the sight of God, enjoyed, and He can be praised for bringing you such a great person and bringing pleasure by that person, though pleasure alone cannot be adequate praise), or even eating a chocolate bar. All things that can bring pleasure and be a source of Praise.

Can we think of masturbation this way? What is the general root? Is it biology? Is it pleasure? Is it lust? If it is only biology, then can we say it cannot be sin? Can we be proud of our biology and use our urges to praise God? Isn't it equally "natural" for a child to want chocolate rather than broccoli, but we know there is a value to the broccoli, and would be fools to let the kid eat nothing but chocolate because that's what the kid wants in his head and body, we are being fools. More than that, those urges cannot be "good" - becuase things like gluttony we know to be sin.

Here it is. Can you touch in your church worship service? Should praising God and sexual pleasure be linked? Can your church have a sunrise service or meal afterwards with tasty treats, or even join people together and wish them a great wedding night? Of course. Can your church have a masturbation booth so you can praise God and have a sexual release by yourself? Think about it. I know it's extreme, but we are dancing around the fact that "it's not in the Bible" and it's good for your body (prove it!)...when we know deep down it's not something that can go hand in hand with worship and praise. So how could it be right?

I Corinthians 6 says it all as far as I'm concerned:

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
12"Everything is permissible for me"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"—but I will not be mastered by anything. 13"Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"—but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. 15Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh."£ 17But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.
18Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

Paying back that "price" by pleasing ourselves in a way we know can't be the type of thing we do with others (that would be perverse or tied to lust) or in the presence of others (it would either disgust them or cause them to lust). We ought to be thinking of how we can pay back Christ for the debt we owe, rather than justifying the weakness or wickedness we are all born with. He came to give us life to the full...does that mean a stronger hand with which to touch? Does that come anywhere near what you think Christ came for and what it means to be united to Him?

Peace,

 

[caireann]

Well said fandera... I think that your post was the most concise, organized and objective one I've read... I still don't know where I stand on the issue, but what you've said makes so much sense. Amen and Amen!

 

[Jedi]

Can you touch in your church worship service? Should praising God and sexual pleasure be linked? Can your church have a sunrise service or meal afterwards with tasty treats, or even join people together and wish them a great wedding night? Of course.... I know it's extreme, but we are dancing around the fact that "it's not in the Bible" and it's good for your body (prove it!)...when we know deep down it's not something that can go hand in hand with worship and praise. So how could it be right?

I’m afraid this sort of argumentation leads to double standards. I don’t take a dump in church service, but the fact that I would never do such a thing in public view does not make it bad. The same can be said of sex altogether for that matter. I’m sorry, but the argument “If you wouldn’t do it in full view of everyone, then you shouldn't do it at all” just isn’t very convincing.

Can your church have a masturbation booth so you can praise God and have a sexual release by yourself? Think about it.

"Can your church have a sex booth so you can praise God and have a sexual release? No? I guess it must be bad, then." Whether or not something is bad does not depend on whether or not your church will set up a dedicated booth for it...

We ought to be thinking of how we can pay back Christ for the debt we owe, rather than justifying the weakness or wickedness we are all born with.

Since when is “doing something pleasurable” equal to “justifying the weakness or wickedness we are all born with?” Come on…

He came to give us life to the full...does that mean a stronger hand with which to touch? Does that come anywhere near what you think Christ came for and what it means to be united to Him?

Bad logic here: simply because Christ promises an abundant life does not somehow magically mean that masturbation is bad. The lines don’t even intercept here. You might as well say, "God didn't save you so you could watch T.V., therefore you should not watch T.V." Simply because Christ did not come to give you abundant life and have masturbation be the epitome of that life does not mean that masturbation (or watching T.V.) could not be a part of it. Your argumentation would have us neglect everything from watching T.V., playing video games, sports, and any other myriad of pleasurable activities because people aren’t doing them for the explicit purpose of glorifying God. Funny how masturbation is singled out here, yet the other things your argument would forbid are left unmentioned.

 

[caireann]

Your argumentation would have us neglect everything from watching T.V., playing video games, sports, and any other myriad of pleasurable activities because people aren’t doing them for the explicit purpose of glorifying God.

Just for the sake of arguement, I have a feeling (and of course there's no way we'll ever know) that were Paul here in this day and age, he'd say exactly that.

Watching TV, playing video games, etc that aren't for "the explicit purpose of glorifying God" should not be done. They take time away from possible witnessing...

again... I brought this up merely for the sake of arguement. I honestly think that Paul would abhor much of our present-day 'time-wasters'. Not condemn them, or say they're sinful, but I think he would say that we are to do all things to glorify God and further His kingdom. That said, he was also very zealous, and I'm not disagreeing with you persay, just throwing a bone

Funny how masturbation is singled out here, yet the other things your argument would forbid are left unmentioned.

Umm... well, yes, masturbation was singled out... because it happens to be the topic of this thread.

 

[Jedi]

Just for the sake of arguement, I have a feeling (and of course there's no way we'll ever know) that were Paul here in this day and age, he'd say exactly that.

Well, at least we don’t have a double standard. It’s just an implausible stance, condemning all pleasures that aren’t done for the explicit glory of God. This method of argumentation against masturbation only makes things more difficult for the arguer (now instead of justifying a condemnation of masturbation, the person has to justify condemning countless other acts as well).

Personally, I do not feel obliged to believe that the God who made us with a desire for sexual pleasures, a desire for entertainment, etc. did not intend for us to forgo their fulfillment. I find it difficult to believe that Paul would condemn all games/activities of his day that weren't done for the explicit purpose of glorifying God. A couple having passionate sex largely has something else on their mind rather than explicitly praising God - screaming "Oh God" in their bedroom doesn't count.

And of course, even that would be condemned under Fandera's "should we do it, should we not" criteria.

Umm... well, yes, masturbation was singled out... because it happens to be the topic of this thread.

Quite right, but the problem was that masturbation is not the only thing he is arguing against. His argument really isn’t with masturbation in particular but with a countless number of things.

 

[enelya_taralom]

sorry it posted twice

 

[enelya_taralom]

Personally, I do not feel obliged to believe that the God who made us with a desire for sexual pleasures, a desire for entertainment, etc. did not intend for us to forgo their fulfillment.

But by this logic then, at least when applied to a rational for maturbation, we could also say that pre-martial sex is not a sin. Just as with maturbation, with pre-martial you're "fulfilling a God given desire for sexual pleasures."

What's important here is to look at things in context. Yes God did make sex pleasurable, so there is nothing inhertently wrong with the pleasurable aspects of sex or enjoying them. However, looking at scripture and the context of which we are to enjoy that pleasure, there can arise problems.

In scripture, sex and sexual pleasures are constantly presented as something to be enjoyed between a husband and wife (Songs of Songs, Proverbs 5:15-20, 1 Corinthians 7: 1-7) and is never condoned as something to be enjoyed outside of that context (whether it be with someone other than your spouse or on your own). There arises the problem with masturbation... the seeking and fulfillment of sexual pleasure outside of the context in which it is to be enjoyed.

Someone mentioned enjoying a sunset previously in this thread (sorry can't remember who) and how it is not wrong to find pleasure in one or to use it as a way to glorify God. I agree, however lets carry that analogy further....

To me masturbation is like trying to enjoy that sunset at high noon, rather than dust. You're trying to take a beautiful, natural God-given gift and enjoy / seek fulfillment in it on your own terms, in your own time, and in a manner that is not condusive to the design or natural function(s) of that gift.

 

[Jedi]

But by this logic then, at least when applied to a rational for maturbation, we could also say that pre-martial sex is not a sin. Just as with maturbation, with pre-martial you're "fulfilling a God given desire for sexual pleasures."

Actually, logically, that’s not true. Simply because sexual pleasures and a desire for entertainment are meant to be fulfilled does not mean it is permissible to fulfill them in any circumstance (e.g. sex outside of marriage being forbidden does not mean that we weren’t meant to enjoy sex).

In scripture, sex and sexual pleasures are constantly presented as something to be enjoyed between a husband and wife (Songs of Songs, Proverbs 5:15-20, 1 Corinthians 7: 1-7) and is never condoned as something to be enjoyed outside of that context (whether it be with someone other than your spouse or on your own). There arises the problem with masturbation... the seeking and fulfillment of sexual pleasure outside of the context in which it is to be enjoyed.

Be careful here. Simply because scripture describes intercourse as the ultimate fulfillment of sexuality does not mean that all of sexuality and sexual pleasure is limited to that alone. It’s quite possible (and plausible) that masturbation is a normal part of sexual development.

A fundamental rule of moral judgment is that any act is morally innocent until proven guilty. In other words, if we cannot find reason to condemn masturbation, it remains permissible.

To me masturbation is like trying to enjoy that sunset at high noon, rather than dust. You're trying to take a beautiful, natural God-given gift and enjoy / seek fulfillment in it on your own terms, in your own time, and in a manner that is not condusive to the design or natural function(s) of that gift.

So you mean to say that doing things on your own time (in this instance, enjoying the sun at high noon) is a sin? On what basis do you stand to make such an assertion? Simply because we choose to enjoy something when and how we like doesn’t make it automatically wrong. Even here, you only beg the question in presuming that masturbation is outside of God’s plan and the design of natural sexuality. On the contrary, the fact that scripture goes through great trouble to list many detailed (some bizarre) sexual practices and not once even mentions (never mind forbids) such a common practice as masturbation is powerful evidence that it is so natural and morally permissible that it wasn’t worth mentioning.

 

[enelya_taralom]

Actually, logically, that’s not true. Simply because sexual pleasures and a desire for entertainment are meant to be fulfilled does not mean it is permissible to fulfill them in any circumstance (e.g. sex outside of marriage being forbidden does not mean that we weren’t meant to enjoy sex).

You're exactly right. Just because God allows for sexual desire to be fulfilled (within marriage) doesn't mean that it is permissible to fulfill it in any circumstance. So why then is fulfillment of sexual desire (through masturbation) permissible outside of the circumstances in which God allows the fulfillment of sex?

There is one key line in the first part of my post, "at least when applied to a rational for maturbation." I was not saying that we are never meant to enjoy sex, or fulfill sexual pleasure, but was saying that to use the logic of masturbation being okay because it's a way for one to fulfill a desire for sexual pleasure, means that pre-martial sex is also permissible as it's doing the same thing... fulfilling sexual desire. Again, things have to be looked at in context (in this case, the context of an argument for masturbation, not against sexual pleasure).

Be careful here. Simply because scripture describes intercourse as the ultimate fulfillment of sexuality does not mean that all of sexuality and sexual pleasure is limited to that alone. It’s quite possible (and plausible) that masturbation is a normal part of sexual development.

A fundamental rule of moral judgment is that any act is morally innocent until proven guilty. In other words, if we cannot find reason to condemn masturbation, it remains permissible.

Actually, sex is described as a physical unity between husband and wife (often used as a comparison for the unity of God and His people or the Kingdom of Heaven) and not as a "fulfillment of sexuality." Our sexuality exists regardless of whether or not we are active in physical intercourse (given that we are all created with a sex, male or female) and can definitley be fulfilled without sex (see Matthew 19, for example).


As for maturbation being permissible aslong as "we don't find reason to condemn" it, well many have found reason to condemn masturbation. It must then be condemnable.

So you mean to say that doing things on your own time (in this instance, enjoying the sun at high noon) is a sin? On what basis do you stand to make such an assertion? Simply because we choose to enjoy something when and how we like doesn’t make it automatically wrong. Even here, you only beg the question in presuming that masturbation is outside of God’s plan and the design of natural sexuality. On the contrary, the fact that scripture goes through great trouble to list many detailed (some bizarre) sexual practices and not once even mentions (never mind forbids) such a common practice as masturbation is powerful evidence that it is so natural and morally permissible that it wasn’t worth mentioning.

No, I don't think that doing things in our own time and how we like is "automatically wrong" (course it also doesn't automatically make it right either). Again, things have to be looked at in context.

It would be wrong to try to enjoy a sunset at high noon because that's trying to enjoy the sunset in a manner that it was not designed to be enjoyed. A sunset was not designed to be enjoyed at high noon, but rather at dusk. So all the pleasures / fulfillment of a sunset can only be (and should only be) sought when that sunset was designed to happen / be enjoyed. Consquently all the pleasures of a sunset are then, also meant to be enjoyed at dusk, along with the sunset (and not in isolation of it). It's not so much that we are trying to enjoy something on our own terms (though we should always be seeking God's will over our own), but rather that we are placing our terms above the natural design of the thing we are trying to enjoy.

As with masturbation and sexual pleasure, again, scripture describes sex as something to be enjoyed between a husband and wife, and doesn't condon it as something to be enjoyed / sought outside of marriage. So, like a sunset that has a speific design, sex and consquently, all its pleasurers, also has a certain design. Again, what then makes seeking the pleasures of sex okay to seek outside of that design? And what makes it okay to even try to isolate the pleasures of sex from sex itself?

 

[kopilo]

As with masturbation and sexual pleasure, again, scripture describes sex as something to be enjoyed between a husband and wife, and doesn't condon it as something to be enjoyed / sought outside of marriage. So, like a sunset that has a speific design, sex and consquently, all its pleasurers, also has a certain design. Again, what then makes seeking the pleasures of sex okay to seek outside of that design? And what makes it okay to even try to isolate the pleasures of sex from sex itself?

Why are you even talking about sexual relations or marriege? or do I have to spell it out again! Read posts #124, & #106.

 

[enelya_taralom]

Why are you even talking about sexual relations or marriege? or do I have to spell it out again! Read posts #124, & #106.

Because we're talking about (or at least Jedi and I) the fulfillment of sexual pleasure, and when doing so, you're going to have to talk about sex and the context in which it was designed to be enjoyed/ fulfilled (marriage).

 

[Jedi]

So why then is fulfillment of sexual desire (through masturbation) permissible outside of the circumstances in which God allows the fulfillment of sex?

The answer is simple: because no evidence has been given that would lead us to believe masturbation is contrary to God’s will concerning sexual pleasure or development. It is only wrong to fulfill a desire in a manner that God has spoken against. God has not spoken against masturbation. Thus there are no divine grounds from which to stand in order for masturbation to be condemned.

I was not saying that we are never meant to enjoy sex, or fulfill sexual pleasure, but was saying that to use the logic of masturbation being okay because it's a way for one to fulfill a desire for sexual pleasure, means that pre-martial sex is also permissible as it's doing the same thing... fulfilling sexual desire.

That’s not the reason I said it was morally innocent, though. What I’ve been saying is that any act (masturbation or not) is morally innocent until proven guilty. Thus since masturbation is never condemned by scripture (a fact that supports masturbation’s innocence because of scripture going through great trouble to outlaw sinful sexual practices), and no one has proposed a philosophical problem to masturbation, there stands no reason to condemn masturbation as inherently sinful.

Actually, sex is described as a physical unity between husband and wife (often used as a comparison for the unity of God and His people or the Kingdom of Heaven) and not as a "fulfillment of sexuality."

You mean to say that intercourse is not the fulfillment of our sexuality? That my body is not designed specifically in such a way to fit yours and vice versa? My lady, intercourse is emphasized as good in scripture because it is the fulfillment of our sexuality. In this fulfillment, there is physical/emotional/spiritual unity. However, the fact remains that even if this is the “ultimate good” or “epitome” of our sexuality (i.e. the purpose for which we are sexual beings), it does neglect the possibility of enjoying sexual pleasures other than that. Simply because something has a purpose does not mean it is wrong to use it in other ways as well. Only if the method in which something is used is bad (or in our case, sinful) does it become a problem. To date, no one has demonstrated that is the case for masturbation.

Perhaps an example might help. You say that masturbation is wrong because it is not the purpose of us being sexual beings - intercourse within marriage is. Very well then, I am using a cup as a paper weight. That is not what the cup designers designed the cup to do. Am I wrong in using the cup as a paper weight? I hardly think so. Why? Because how I am using the cup does not hinder its intended use (to hold liquid). Even if there were printed instructions on the package the cup came in illustrating the purpose of the cup, it would not be wrong of me to use the cup in other ways for as long as I did not violate its intended purpose. By using the cup as a paper weight, I am adding to its usefulness, not taking away from it. The same concept applies to sexuality, its purpose, and masturbation.

This is all assuming that God never intended for us to touch, of course, which I think is a sketchy presupposition at best. Even with the granted assumption, the situation still checks out clean.

As for maturbation being permissible aslong as "we don't find reason to condemn" it, well many have found reason to condemn masturbation. It must then be condemnable.

Where? I have debated this issue for years, my lady, and never, not once has anyone been able to put forth a credible argument or reference from scripture explaining how masturbation is inherently sinful. Interestingly enough, no one has responded to the powerful evidence from scripture that supports masturbation’s innocence: Scripture goes through great lengths to outlaw even the most bizarre sexual practices, yet nowhere is such a widespread & common sexual act as masturbation even mentioned (never mind condemned). Why would this be the case if, indeed, masturbation is inherently sinful? The fact that God didn’t put it in there in the long list of sexual acts to be avoided is powerful evidence that masturbation is not inherently sinful. Further still, even if it is, how could God condemn us for doing something He never said was wrong – especially when scripture’s silence of masturbation in the long list of sexual laws leads us to believe it is not inherently sinful?

It would be wrong to try to enjoy a sunset at high noon because that's trying to enjoy the sunset in a manner that it was not designed to be enjoyed.

Just for kicks, can you please back up that statement? Show me in scripture where it states this to be true. You see, just as in the case with masturbation, it seems you are reading your own presuppositions of “this is how it was meant to be” to be scripture’s teachings of “this is how it was meant to be.” Mere opinion just won’t cut it in a debate. We can’t just say, “It wasn’t meant to be this way” and leave it at that. Otherwise, we’re left with a “yes it was, no it wasn’t” argument.

As with masturbation and sexual pleasure, again, scripture describes sex as something to be enjoyed between a husband and wife, and doesn't condon it as something to be enjoyed / sought outside of marriage.

But this is an argument of silence, which is invalid (you're treating silence of alternative uses as a forbidding of alternative uses). Our sexuality may have a purpose (intercourse within marriage) but until you can show me where God limits our sexual pleasure exclusively to intercourse within marriage, you really have no case. Saying, “We were designed for this” does not negate the possibility that “we may also use this design for something else.” Only when the alternative use of a particular design has negative results is it a bad use of the design. No one has demonstrated that to be the case for masturbation.

Again, what then makes seeking the pleasures of sex okay to seek outside of that design?

The same thing that makes me using my cup as a paperweight okay: an alternative use that differs from a particular design is not wrong simply because it has found something else to do along with its designed purpose. Only when the additional use has negative consequences does it become bad. Again, no one has demonstrated this to necessarily be the case for masturbation.

 

[caireann]

The answer is simple: because no evidence has been given that would lead us to believe masturbation is contrary to God’s will concerning sexual pleasure or development. It is only wrong to fulfill a desire in a manner that God has spoken against. God has not spoken against masturbation. Thus there are no divine grounds from which to stand in order for masturbation to be condemned.

Christianity is based on the bible. If the bible were to very specifically list all sins, it would be volumes instead of one book. Just because something is not listed specifically doesn't mean that it's ok. Nowhere in the bible does it say 'do not smoke' or 'do not get an ink tattoo'. We can't always take things at face value... sometimes we have to read between the lines.

You mean to say that intercourse is not the fulfillment of our sexuality? That my body is not designed specifically in such a way to fit yours and vice versa?

Our bodies are designed that way... and thank the Lord, or the human race would have ended with Adam & Eve! We are designed to reproduce... so that we can have children. And because God is a loving God, he's made that act enjoyable. Maybe so that we're more likely to reproduce, or maybe simply to give us pleasure in our marriages. You'll have to ask Him.

My lady, intercourse is emphasized as good in scripture because it is the fulfillment of our sexuality. In this fulfillment, there is physical/emotional/spiritual unity.

I think that intercourse is less a 'fulfillment of our sexuality' and more like the wax seal on a covenent. It's the consummation of a marriage that's meant to 'seal the deal' you might say.

Perhaps an example might help. You say that masturbation is wrong because it is not the purpose of us being sexual beings - intercourse within marriage is. Very well then, I am using a cup as a paper weight. That is not what the cup designers designed the cup to do. Am I wrong in using the cup as a paper weight? I hardly think so. Why? Because how I am using the cup does not hinder its intended use (to hold liquid).

A cup is also an inanimate object. It doesn't have a soul. Right and wrong don't apply to a cup. I'm sure that God wouldn't care if you used the cup to vent frustration on by crushing it... even though that would hinder its intended use.

I have debated this issue for years, my lady, and never, not once has anyone been able to put forth a credible argument or reference from scripture explaining how masturbation is inherently sinful.

I think that for you, anything less of a "do not touch" wouldn't be good enough... you've made your decision on what you think about the subject, and no matter what anyone says, you're not going to budge an inch.

Interestingly enough, no one has responded to the powerful evidence from scripture that supports masturbation’s innocence: Scripture goes through great lengths to outlaw even the most bizarre sexual practices, yet nowhere is such a widespread & common sexual act as masturbation even mentioned (never mind condemned). Why would this be the case if, indeed, masturbation is inherently sinful? The fact that God didn’t put it in there in the long list of sexual acts to be avoided is powerful evidence that masturbation is not inherently sinful. Further still, even if it is, how could God condemn us for doing something He never said was wrong – especially when scripture’s silence of masturbation in the long list of sexual laws leads us to believe it is not inherently sinful?

Again... things aren't always black and white... sometimes you have to use a little God-given discernment.

Just for kicks, can you please back up that statement? Show me in scripture where it states this to be true. You see, just as in the case with masturbation, it seems you are reading your own presuppositions of “this is how it was meant to be” to be scripture’s teachings of “this is how it was meant to be.” Mere opinion just won’t cut it in a debate. We can’t just say, “It wasn’t meant to be this way” and leave it at that. Otherwise, we’re left with a “yes it was, no it wasn’t” argument.

You also don't have a scripture that says masturbation is ok... you're assuming by the lack of a specific commandment that it's ok. Maybe you're right, maybe you're not. It's an opinion and assumption that you have. And whether or not you can back that up with arguments, still doesn't make it fact

But this is an argument of silence, which is invalid (you're treating silence of alternative uses as a forbidding of alternative uses).

You're arguement is also an arguement of silence; you say, "you're treating silence of alternative uses as a forbidding of alternative uses" but you're treating silence of a specific commandment as a stamp of approval to go ahead.

Saying, “We were designed for this” does not negate the possibility that “we may also use this design for something else.”

It may not 'negate' the possibility but it also doesn't assure it either.

Only when the alternative use of a particular design has negative results is it a bad use of the design. No one has demonstrated that to be the case for masturbation.

No one has demonstrated that masturbation can have negative results??? What about those that it causes to lust... what about husbands who neglect their wives because they'd rather just 'do it themselves'... or wives who neglect their husbands?


I had said before that I didn't know where I stood on this issue... thank you Jedi for clearing that up for me. I think that masturbation doesn't glorify God and is therefore not right.

 

[Jedi]

Christianity is based on the bible. If the bible were to very specifically list all sins, it would be volumes instead of one book.

(1) The Bible is volumes and not “one book” (it is a collection of books), (2) the Bible goes through great lengths to list and forbid many, many sexual practices and if it saw fit to condemn even the most bizarre sexual acts (e.g. sex with animals), why would it leave such a common thing as masturbation completely out if it was truly inherently sinful?

A cup is also an inanimate object. It doesn't have a soul. Right and wrong don't apply to a cup. I'm sure that God wouldn't care if you used the cup to vent frustration on by crushing it... even though that would hinder its intended use

But you’ve missed the point entirely. There is a way to use the cup as to accomplish the designers intended purpose (fill it with liquid) and there are other ways to use the cup that differ from what it was designed to do (use it as a paper weight). The whole example was to show that simply because you use a particular thing in a way it was not designed to be used does not, by default, make using it in that manner wrong (or in the case of masturbation, sinful).

I think that for you, anything less of a "do not touch" wouldn't be good enough... you've made your decision on what you think about the subject, and no matter what anyone says, you're not going to budge an inch.

I suspect I know what would convince me better than you, my lady, and this is quite untrue. All that would need to be done is demonstrate that there is either (a) some text in scripture explicitly forbidding masturbation, or (b) a principle in scripture that forbids masturbation. If neither can be given, where is the reason to condemn masturbation?

Again... things aren't always black and white... sometimes you have to use a little God-given discernment.

And still no one answers that objection.

I’m not interested in “God-given discernment” here, since in a debate where people disagree, that is of no more use than mere opinion. People are discerning differently, so we can’t appeal to that discernment in trying to understand what the truth is.

You also don't have a scripture that says masturbation is ok... you're assuming by the lack of a specific commandment that it's ok. Maybe you're right, maybe you're not. It's an opinion and assumption that you have. And whether or not you can back that up with arguments, still doesn't make it fact

On the contrary, I have already pointed out that any act is morally innocent until proven guilty. The burden of proof is not on me, but on those who wish to condemn masturbation. It’s just that simple.

You're arguement is also an arguement of silence; you say, "you're treating silence of alternative uses as a forbidding of alternative uses" but you're treating silence of a specific commandment as a stamp of approval to go ahead.

I suspected someone might make this accusation but didn’t want to explain the difference unless necessary. The difference from my argument of scripture’s silence is that scripture is very vocal about sexual acts and forbidding them. My argument is not merely, “It is not there, thus it must be okay,” but “Scripture took great care in outlawing even the most bizarre sexual practices and did not think it important to even mention such a common sexual act as masturbation. This is very odd if masturbation is, indeed, inherently sinful (if this were so, it should have been near the top of the list).” My argument is not merely playing on silence, but silence amidst abundance. The reality is that such an omission speaks very loudly on behalf of masturbation’s innocence.

It may not 'negate' the possibility but it also doesn't assure it either.

Quite right, but like I’ve pointed out before, the burden of proof is not on me, but on those who wish to condemn masturbation, since any act is morally permissible until proven guilty.

No one has demonstrated that masturbation can have negative results??? What about those that it causes to lust... what about husbands who neglect their wives because they'd rather just 'do it themselves'... or wives who neglect their husbands?

When I say, “no one has demonstrated that to be the case for masturbation,” it should be clear that I mean “necessarily the case,” since nearly anything taken to an extreme can make devils of us. Driving a car, watching T.V., reading, etc. can all be taken to extremes so they have bad effects, but simply because they have the possibility of negative results does not mean they are bad altogether. Basically, the burden of proof for those who wish to condemn masturbation is to show how masturbation necessarily has negative results. If this can’t be done, then masturbation does not stand condemned (or at least it stands on the same level of any other activity when not taken to an extreme).

I think that masturbation doesn't glorify God and is therefore not right.

Me driving a car to get me some McDonald’s doesn’t glorify God. Going to the restroom, taking a nap, playing a video game, and any other number of activities are not done to explicitly glorify God. If your condemnation of masturbation on these grounds is to stand, you must also condemn countless other activities as well – the argument you’ve used produces more problems for you than it solves, I’m afraid.