Saved

[Brother Chris]

Just not scriptural. Sorry.

Yes it is, the thief on the cross never got water baptized. He is saved and in heaven. Your works based salvation theology is not scriptural.

 

[Open Heart]

Yes it is, the thief on the cross never got water baptized. He is saved and in heaven. Your works based salvation theology is not scriptural.

Of course not. Because God's command is to be baptized when it is possible. All the commandments are "when possible."

 

[Butch5]

And thus infant baptism is illegitimate in that infants are making a pledge of a good conscience in baptism. So much for Catholics, Orthodox Christianity, Lutheranism, Presbyteriansim, to name a few.

That has no bearing on what Peter said. I don't agree with infant baptism, but Peter isn't writing to infants.

 

[Butch5]

Exactly. Good post. Water baptism never saved anyone, and never will. Alot of unsaved professing Christians get baptized and are not saved.

That unbelievers get baptized doesn't affect the meaning of baptism. Being baptized doesn't say anyone, it's what God does in the baptism that saves. It's like saying eating keeps people alive. Does eating keep people alive? Maybe, if they eat nutritious foods they live, if they eat dirt they die. It's not the act of eating that keeps them alive, it's what they eat. Likewise getting baptized without appealing to God won't get one saved, however, being baptize while appealing to God will. It's not the act of eating that keeps one alive, however, if one doesn't eat they won't live. Likewise, it's not the act of baptism that gives one life but if one isn't baptized they won't see life. God can save whoever he pleases to, baptized or not, however, He has promised to save the one who is baptized.

 

[Butch5]

Yes it is, the thief on the cross never got water baptized. He is saved and in heaven. Your works based salvation theology is not scriptural.

Chris, how do you know the thief never got baptized? Jesus and the disciples baptized for about 3 1/2 years and John the baptist started 6 months before that. It would seem that there was four years time in which he could have been baptized. I don't believe anyone can state categorically that he wasn't baptized.

 

[Brother Chris]

Of course not. Because God's command is to be baptized when it is possible. All the commandments are "when possible."

Sorry

Chris, how do you know the thief never got baptized? Jesus and the disciples baptized for about 3 1/2 years and John the baptist started 6 months before that. It would seem that there was four years time in which he could have been baptized. I don't believe anyone can state categorically that he wasn't baptized.

The thief died on the cross, that was his capital punishment. And Jesus told him that, that same day the thief would be in Heaven with Christ. He (the thief) died that same day. They broke his legs so that he couldn't hold himself up and therefore suffocate.

You believe in a works based salvation Butch, so i'm not surprised that you're throwing in baptism as something you must do to be saved.

 

[Butch5]

Sorry


The thief died on the cross, that was his capital punishment. And Jesus told him that, that same day the thief would be in Heaven with Christ. He (the thief) died that same day. They broke his legs so that he couldn't hold himself up and therefore suffocate.

You believe in a works based salvation Butch, so i'm not surprised that you're throwing in baptism as something you must do to be saved.

But this doesn't address that the thief. could have been baptized. You speak a works based salvation. Of course works play a role in salvation, that is what the Scriptures teach. The idea that works play no role is salvation is an erroneous teaching that stems from the teaching of Martin Luther who started the Reformation. He is the one who championed the "faith alone" doctrine. Ironically, even Luther the "faith alone" guy said that baptism was necessary for salvation. You see the Scriptures that used to argue that works aren't necessary are Paul's writings regarding the works of the Mosiac Law. Paul is not arguing that good deeds play no role in salvation, he actually states the opposite in Romans 2.

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: (Rom. 2:5-7 KJV)

 

[Butch5]

Sorry


The thief died on the cross, that was his capital punishment. And Jesus told him that, that same day the thief would be in Heaven with Christ. He (the thief) died that same day. They broke his legs so that he couldn't hold himself up and therefore suffocate.

You believe in a works based salvation Butch, so i'm not surprised that you're throwing in baptism as something you must do to be saved.

Regarding the thief, the passage says that he would be with Jesus in Paradise, not heaven. Additionally, there were no commas in the original text, they were added by the translators. Therefore the comma could just as easily be place after the word today.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Lk. 23:43 KJV)

Since the comma can grammatically be placed at either location this passage cannot be used to say that the thief was with Jesus in Paradise that day.

 

[Open Heart]

You believe in a works based salvation Butch, so i'm not surprised that you're throwing in baptism as something you must do to be saved.

You can name call all you want. It is the scriptural position. If possible, you must be baptized for forgiveness. Baptism saves you. That's the Bible.

 

[Albion]

Alot of unsaved professing Christians get baptized and are not saved.

That's true...so now we have a statement that almost every Christian of any denomination agrees to. What have we proven by it?

 

[Open Heart]

Alot of unsaved professing Christians get baptized and are not saved.

If it is a valid baptism, with accompanying repentance, why would you believe they are unsaved?

 

[Brother Chris]

You can name call all you want. It is the scriptural position. If possible, you must be baptized for forgiveness. Baptism saves you. That's the Bible.

Not it does not save you. What bible are you getting this from? When the apostles said, "Be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins" he meant two things, to be baptized by the Holy Spirit and to follow in obedience to Christ in water baptism. Water baptism does not save, but if you are truly saved and have been forgiven, you will want to get baptized.

 

[Brother Chris]

Regarding the thief, the passage says that he would be with Jesus in Paradise, not heaven. Additionally, there were no commas in the original text, they were added by the translators. Therefore the comma could just as easily be place after the word today.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Lk. 23:43 KJV)

Since the comma can grammatically be placed at either location this passage cannot be used to say that the thief was with Jesus in Paradise that day.

Butch, they broker the thief's legs that same day, so that he could not support himself to breath, and so he suffocated. The Jews requested this because of the Passover, they didn't want people alive on the cross during those days. He died on the cross that same day and went to Paradise/Heaven, whatever you want to call it. Point is, he was saved without water baptism.

 

[Open Heart]

Not it does not save you. What bible are you getting this from?

I have the Bible that has 1 Peter 3:21 "And this water symbolizes Baptism which now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

 

[Brother Chris]

I have the Bible that has 1 Peter 3:21 "And this water symbolizes Baptism which now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

Again, it's symbolic, since Peter already explains that he is not referring to the actual water, which removes dirt, but being baptized into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit. Water baptism is simply an outward demonstration of what has occurred on the inside. Water baptism is the evidence of salvation, not the root of it.

 

[Open Heart]

Again, it's symbolic, since Peter already explains that he is not referring to the actual water, which removes dirt, but being baptized into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit. Water baptism is simply an outward demonstration of what has occurred on the inside. Water baptism is the evidence of salvation, not the root of it.

1 Peter 3:21 is not symbolic. Where do you get that idea? He is comparing the water of regular washing to the water of baptism.

 

[Brother Chris]

1 Peter 3:21 is not symbolic. Where do you get that idea? He is comparing the water of regular washing to the water of baptism.

Just as Noah and his sons were saved in the ark from the flood, so we as Christians are saved in Christ, from the wrath of God that is to come upon this world. That is the comparison he is making.

 

[Open Heart]

Just as Noah and his sons were saved in the ark from the flood, so we as Christians are saved in Christ, from the wrath of God that is to come upon this world. That is the comparison he is making.

That doesn't refute what I said.

 

[Butch5]

Butch, they broker the thief's legs that same day, so that he could not support himself to breath, and so he suffocated. The Jews requested this because of the Passover, they didn't want people alive on the cross during those days. He died on the cross that same day and went to Paradise/Heaven, whatever you want to call it. Point is, he was saved without water baptism.

Chris,

They were baptizing for about four years before the cross. How do you know he wasn't baptized during those four years?

I would submit that they were not in Paradise/Heaven that same day. As I said that reading is at a translators discretion.

Think about this, If Jesus was supposed to have been in Heaven that same day, why did He tell Mary, after rising the third day, not to touch Him because He had not yet ascended to the Father?

 

[Brother Chris]

Chris,

They were baptizing for about four years before the cross. How do you know he wasn't baptized during those four years?

I would submit that they were not in Paradise/Heaven that same day. As I said that reading is at a translators discretion.

Think about this, If Jesus was supposed to have been in Heaven that same day, why did He tell Mary, after rising the third day, not to touch Him because He had not yet ascended to the Father?

Both thieves on the cross were reviling Jesus, but only one had a change of heart and pleaded for mercy and forgiveness. He was saved, and went to heaven that same day, without water baptism. Please, you really think that same thief who reviled Jesus at the beginning was water baptized by John...LOL!