Saved by Grace doesn't mean our works don't matter. Ephesian's over all context screams this.

[B Griffin]

Doubt is raised because the human will remains involved.

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

It's also as John says in his letters, that if we continue in the sin then we don't even know God; if we don't love we don't know God.

Actually, it is the content what you say that raises doubt. You are very consistently saying nothing spiritual, even as you quote verses that contrast the spiritual things with fleshly things. In this post there are two examples.

First, Romans 8:14 clearly identifies the children of God as those who are led (passive) by the Spirit of God. The verse begins with the Greek word "γάρ" which is, according to Louw Nida lexicon, "a marker of cause or reason between events". You will live if "by the Spirit" you are putting to death the sinful deeds of the body BECAUSE everyone who is being led around by the Spirit of God is His child.

Second, though you did not quote any verses in your final sentence, it appears that you are referencing this passage from 1 John:

4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.​

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.​

[The New King James Version (1 Jn 3:4–9). (1982). Thomas Nelson.]​

Notice verse 9 in particular. It contains two instances of the greek word, "ὅτι", which, according to Louw Nida lexicon, is a marker of "of cause or reason, based on an evident fact". Whoever has been born of God does not sin BECAUSE OF THE EVIDENT FACT that His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin BECAUSE OF THE EVIDENT FACT that he has been born of God. It is clear here that the thing that keeps us on track with God is that we have been born of God and His seed remains in us.

How does this spiritual reality fit into your doctrine?

 

[Samson2021]

Is there no place in your theology for a new man that is created according to God in true righteousness and true holiness (Eph 4:24) that lives in a house of flesh that is dead to God (Ro 8:10)?

There is no distinguishing the outward man that perishes and the inward man that is being changed from glory to glory on a daily basis.
With the carnal mind they are trying their best to be better, when indeed they cannot be better than the righteousness of God that
was bestowed upon them, instead trying to establish self righteousness instead of purification by rejecting what desires remain that are
contrary to being pure.

It seems as though these thoughts on the human struggle with sin could be from experiencing the conflict between the flesh and the Spirit (Ga 5:17), but doubt is raised because the solution offered for winning the battle seems to be flesh oriented and not spiritual (Ga 5:16).

Yes as they cannot distinguish between the internal struggle of the new creature and the old man. The new spiritual creature inherits the
kingdom not the flesh which includes the carnal mind. Our job is to overcome them both. Hold every though captive so it won't progress
any further than a thought, and keep the body/flesh under control of the new spiritual son within.

B Griuffin:
There are some things about God that can only be known after a person receives the Spirit of God into his heart. We can share those spiritual things with the lost and they will not be able to comprehend them. In fact, they seem foolish to them. Reference 1 Corinthinans 2:14 and Romans 8:7 to see that it is impossible.

That was my point. It is only after you have been born of the Spirit that the kingdom can be SEEN, the entering it is when the desire
of the individual kicks in, the overwhelming love experienced at the infilling of the HG compels the new son to seek, ask, knock, and
in doing so he is filled with knowledge and wisdom as to what exactly the kingdom is and how to enter further.
No man does that initial phase of his own choice, it is Gods election period. The ones who are not of the elect remain blind to the
kingdom on purpose, as enemies of the elect. Your faith and love are perfected in the present world and without the non believer
it would not be much of a testing, nor would your purge mean much either. Can't love your enemy is you have none????

In sharing with the lost you are betrothing the one to Christ. The day of their wedding is up to the Father. This is His election and
timing. It may seem different but it is not. Most couldn't care less and is understandable, they are blind with hardened hearts and
see not the kingdom goal. Their turn comes whenever the Father says so.

 

[fhansen]

First, Romans 8:14 clearly identifies the children of God as those who are led (passive) by the Spirit of God. The verse begins with the Greek word "γάρ" which is, according to Louw Nida lexicon, "a marker of cause or reason between events". You will live if "by the Spirit" you are putting to death the sinful deeds of the body BECAUSE everyone who is being led around by the Spirit of God is His child.

Yes, people will engage in all kinds of mental gymnastics in order to make the text say what they prefer it to say. Rom 8:12 clearly states that we have an obligation, that we are debtors, that we must make the effort, do our part. The same sentiment occurs in Heb 12:14, for example:
"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord."

Or Rom 2:7:
"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life."

Anyone who's experienced life in the Spirt knows that this doesn't just suddenly "happen". We must strive, we must struggle, we must pick up our cross daily, we must "invest" our talents, the grace given, the love poured into us. And then it multiplies.

How does this spiritual reality fit into your doctrine?

It doesn't, because it's not a "spiritual reality". Being sinless is synonymous with being "perfected in love", a process. Unless you're claiming perfect sinlessness for yourself now.

It's not either/or but both/and, with God initiating and us responding. If we're led by the Spirit then we've responded with a "yes" and we will overcome sin.

If we're not overcoming sin, not growing in love, then we're not being led by the Spirit, not remaining in Him, leaving our sonship behind, no longer responding with a yes regardless of any profession of faith we might make.

 

[B Griffin]

There is no distinguishing the outward man that perishes and the inward man that is being changed from glory to glory on a daily basis.
With the carnal mind they are trying their best to be better, when indeed they cannot be better than the righteousness of God that
was bestowed upon them, instead trying to establish self righteousness instead of purification by rejecting what desires remain that are
contrary to being pure.


Yes as they cannot distinguish between the internal struggle of the new creature and the old man. The new spiritual creature inherits the
kingdom not the flesh which includes the carnal mind. Our job is to overcome them both. Hold every though captive so it won't progress
any further than a thought, and keep the body/flesh under control of the new spiritual son within.

B Griuffin:
There are some things about God that can only be known after a person receives the Spirit of God into his heart. We can share those spiritual things with the lost and they will not be able to comprehend them. In fact, they seem foolish to them. Reference 1 Corinthinans 2:14 and Romans 8:7 to see that it is impossible.

That was my point. It is only after you have been born of the Spirit that the kingdom can be SEEN, the entering it is when the desire
of the individual kicks in, the overwhelming love experienced at the infilling of the HG compels the new son to seek, ask, knock, and
in doing so he is filled with knowledge and wisdom as to what exactly the kingdom is and how to enter further.
No man does that initial phase of his own choice, it is Gods election period. The ones who are not of the elect remain blind to the
kingdom on purpose, as enemies of the elect. Your faith and love are perfected in the present world and without the non believer
it would not be much of a testing, nor would your purge mean much either. Can't love your enemy is you have none????

In sharing with the lost you are betrothing the one to Christ. The day of their wedding is up to the Father. This is His election and
timing. It may seem different but it is not. Most couldn't care less and is understandable, they are blind with hardened hearts and
see not the kingdom goal. Their turn comes whenever the Father says so.

I hesitate to call them lost just because I disagree with them because God is the judge and not me. As for universalism, it is restricted to the controversial theology section.

 

[Samson2021]

The lost see/know/understand that there is a God,

But every lost person has the ability to change His mind, turn to God, and receive the forgiveness He offers in Christ. If they don't repent, they will perish.

That is 100% incorrect. The non elect are what they are due to God making them to be the enemies of the elect for the maturing of
the faith and love of the elect. Rom 11:29 Concerning the gospel THEY ARE ENEMIES FOR YOUR SAKE...............
The unsaved are used to perfect you. That is not their fault. They remain unbelievers so that you can be tried and tested.

I hesitate to call them lost just because I disagree with them because God is the judge and not me.

I used the term lost as you used it to refer to the non elect, or the unsaved. I prefer non elect in that they are not lost except in their
own minds.

 

[B Griffin]

Yes, people will engage in all kinds of mental gymnastics in order to make the text say what they prefer it to say. Rom 8:12 clearly states that we have an obligation, that we are debtors, that we must make the effort, do our part. The same sentiment occurs in Heb 12:14, for example:
"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord."

Or Rom 2:7:
"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life."

Anyone who's experienced life in the Spirt knows that this doesn't just suddenly "happen". We must strive, we must struggle, we must pick up our cross daily, we must "invest" our talents, the grace given, the love poured into us. And then it multiplies.



It doesn't, because it's not a "spiritual reality". Being sinless is synonymous with being "perfected in love", a process. Unless you're claiming perfect sinlessness for yourself now.

I have found these two verses from 1 John to be very instructive:

1. Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. (1 Jn 3:9)
2. We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. (1 Jn 5:18)

There are two main points in these verses.

The first main point is that the new man was "created according to God in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24) when Jesus came to live in our hearts. The righteousness and holiness we have in Christ is "true", not fake, not flawed, and is not progressively improving over time. We see this in John's statement in both verses that "Whoever has been born of God does not sin". He is not speaking of the whole person which includes the flesh, he is pointing directly to the spirit which has been livened by spiritual birth.

The second main point is that the union of the new man with Christ is what makes it impossible for the new man to sin and impossible for the devil to draw him away from God to sin. The person who is "born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6), he is "born of God" (John 1:13), and "His seed remains in Him" (1 John 3:9). It is for this reason that sin is not a part of who that person has become in Christ.

So, if your theology is missing the "spirit" half of the "flesh/spirit" Christian life, then your theology is missing the most important part.

 

[fhansen]

I have found these two verses from 1 John to be very instructive:

1. Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. (1 Jn 3:9)
2. We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. (1 Jn 5:18)

There are two main points in these verses.

The first main point is that the new man was "created according to God in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24) when Jesus came to live in our hearts. The righteousness and holiness we have in Christ is "true", not fake, not flawed, and is not progressively improving over time. We see this in John's statement in both verses that "Whoever has been born of God does not sin". He is not speaking of the whole person which includes the flesh, he is pointing directly to the spirit which has been livened by spiritual birth.

The second main point is that the union of the new man with Christ is what makes it impossible for the new man to sin and impossible for the devil to draw him away from God to sin. The person who is "born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6), he is "born of God" (John 1:13), and "His seed remains in Him" (1 John 3:9). It is for this reason that sin is not a part of who that person has become in Christ.

So, if your theology is missing the "spirit" half of the "flesh/spirit" Christian life, then your theology is missing the most important part.

Hmmm, the problem is that your gospel is adding in too much. They're not speaking of two different people, as if God is interested in some pretend reality, pretend person, rather than the real thing. Or as if Jesus was telling the Pharisees in Matt 23 that they must be clean on the inside first of all in order to make the outside clean while also saying, "Don't worry, the inside will remain dirty in truth." We are divided inside as fallen humans, and yet we are one person. If I do something unrighteous then I am being unrighteous. So when John says,

"Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning.",

He's not talking about some wannabe, but about how you've actually changed, how you've now become as a result of reconciliation and fellowship with God. All of Rom 6 follows in this vein as well, that we must be slaves to righteousness now rather than slaves to sin, with eternal life hanging in the balance. Jesus accomplished much more than a change in our status. He takes away our sin, and replaces it with authentic righteousness.

 

[B Griffin]

Hmmm, the problem is that your gospel is adding in too much. They're not speaking of two different people, as if God is interested in some pretend reality, pretend person, rather than the real thing. Or as if Jesus was telling the Pharisees in Matt 23 that they must be clean on the inside first of all in order to make the outside clean while also saying, "Don't worry, the inside will remain dirty in truth." We are divided inside as fallen humans, and yet we are one person. If I do something unrighteous then I am being unrighteous. So when John says,

"Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning.",

He's not talking about some wannabe, but about how you've actually changed, how you've now become as a result of reconciliation and fellowship with God. All of Rom 6 follows in this vein as well, that we must be slaves to righteousness now rather than slaves to sin, with eternal life hanging in the balance. Jesus accomplished much more than a change in our status. He takes away our sin, and replaces it with authentic righteousness.

There is no "division inside" for fallen humans who have not been made alive in Christ. They are "in the flesh", their mind is "carnal", they are at "enmity against God", their minds are not "subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be", and it is not possible for them to "please God" (Ro 8:7–8). The only internal struggle that the lost face is their inability to live up to God's requirements. God uses this internal struggle to draw them to Christ and find forgiveness for their sins (Ro 7:7-12; Ga 3:22-24).

But there is a "division inside" for fallen humans who have been made alive in Christ. They are "not in the flesh but in the Spirit" if and only if "the Spirit of God" dwells in them (Ro 8:9). Their body is "dead" because of its "sin", but their spirit is "alive" because of its "righteousness". With their "minds" they "serve the law of God", but with their "flesh" they serve "the law of sin" (Ro 7:25). Yet there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Ro. 8:1). They "have been called to liberty", but are cautioned to "not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh" (Ga 5:13). And they are given only one way to deny the flesh what it wants without being entangled in a yoke of bondage:

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. (Ga 5:16–18)​

 

[fhansen]

There is no "division inside" for fallen humans who have not been made alive in Christ.

No, there's a division inside, between the truth of who they're created to be, made in the image and likeness of God, and the person they are as a result of alienation form Him. It's a wound, a big one, and it doesn't heal completely just by virtue of being reconciled. Fallen man is divided in some manner from God, from the rest of creation, from his fellow man, and from and within himself. Only when we love God with our whole heart, soul, mind and strength and our neighbor as ourselves is that wound totally healed. Only then are we living fully aligned with truth. The difference with the reborn is that now he has the seed of God planted within, he has the Holy Spirit. and so the struggle with sin, to that which opposes God and truth within us, is brought to the forefront as we're forgiven of past sins and now empowered to overcome sin the right way, God's way. And this is the reason that there's now no condemnation in Christ, because,
"...He condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (Rom 8:3-4)

"Therefore...brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." (Rom 8:12-14)

 

[B Griffin]

No, there's a division inside, between the truth of who they're created to be, made in the image and likeness of God, and the person they are as a result of alienation form Him. It's a wound, a big one, and it doesn't heal completely just by virtue of being reconciled. Fallen man is divided in some manner from God, from the rest of creation, from his fellow man, and from and within himself. Only when we love God with our whole heart, soul, mind and strength and our neighbor as ourselves is that wound totally healed. Only then are we living fully aligned with truth. The difference with the reborn is that now he has the seed of God planted within, he has the Holy Spirit. and so the struggle with sin, to that which opposes God and truth within us, is brought to the forefront as we're forgiven of past sins and now empowered to overcome sin the right way, God's way. And this is the reason that there's now no condemnation in Christ, because,
"...He condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (Rom 8:3-4)

"Therefore...brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." (Rom 8:12-14)

When you say, "Only when we love God with our whole heart, soul, mind and strength and our neighbor as ourselves is that wound totally healed", do you mean "totally" healed? When you quote Romans 8:3-4 as saying "in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us" do you take it to mean it is "fully" met? When you quote Romans 8:12-14 as saying "For if you live according to the flesh, you will die", do you take it to mean death is certain for every indulgence of the flesh?

I could go further. Does "be holy" (1 Pe 1:16) allow for any sin? Does "be perfect" (Matt 5:48) allow for any imperfection? Does "continue in all things written in the book of the law, to do them" (Ga 3:10) allow for any non-continuance?

What we have here is absolutism. Some people may reject it or ignore it. Some people may try to soften its requirements. Some people may do their best to fulfil it, as if their best is enough. Some people may see it and seek God's mercy. After having obtained His mercy and eternal life as a result, some people may see complete fulfilment in "the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24). Those in the final group may see that they are "totally healed" from the stain of sin by their resurrection from the dead with Christ (Col 2:12).

 

[Samson2021]

Does "continue in all things written in the book of the law, to do them" (Ga 3:10) allow for any non-continuance?

Yes, for being in Christ is the END OF THE LAW, for we are dead to the law through Him. Rom 10:4

 

[fhansen]

When you say, "Only when we love God with our whole heart, soul, mind and strength and our neighbor as ourselves is that wound totally healed", do you mean "totally" healed? When you quote Romans 8:3-4 as saying "in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us" do you take it to mean it is "fully" met? When you quote Romans 8:12-14 as saying "For if you live according to the flesh, you will die", do you take it to mean death is certain for every indulgence of the flesh?

I could go further. Does "be holy" (1 Pe 1:16) allow for any sin? Does "be perfect" (Matt 5:48) allow for any imperfection? Does "continue in all things written in the book of the law, to do them" (Ga 3:10) allow for any non-continuance?

What we have here is absolutism. Some people may reject it or ignore it. Some people may try to soften its requirements. Some people may do their best to fulfil it, as if their best is enough. Some people may see it and seek God's mercy. After having obtained His mercy and eternal life as a result, some people may see complete fulfilment in "the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24). Those in the final group may see that they are "totally healed" from the stain of sin by their resurrection from the dead with Christ (Col 2:12).

I don’t believe in absolutism, not in this life at least. God will have us perfect in the end, however; He created no one to sin, after all. But think about what you’re asserting here. You apparently hold to an “imputed absolutism”, which at least acknowledges God’s continued requirement for some kind of righteousness attributed to man. But what’s the other side of the coin, then, that no gain towards actual perfection, no improvement in personal or individual righteousness can or must take place in a reborn person? Which is it? Does God now no longer demand that the sinner leave his life of sin?

The ancient church spoke of salvation as a journey-towards perfection, and a journey that necessarily takes place with God and a journey which man must be on. The journey actually started in Eden, albeit with a detour so to speak, away from its destiny which is God. But for those who will ultimately reside with Him, that detour ends up as simply part of the journey.

Christianity does not demand absolute perfect sinlessness in this life. But perfection is nevertheless the goal. And with God this perfection is possible and will ultimately happen. How close to perfection must we be in this life with the gifts of righteousness: faith, hope, and love, along with any individual gifts of the Spirit, given at justification with the new life in the Spirit, the life of grace, now open to man? Read the Parable of the Talents. God expects a return, with more expected from those given more. He’ll be the judge of how well we did with all that at the end of the day. But we don’t rest on our laurels like the wicked and lazy servant. When understood this way all the admonishments and exhortations about needing to be holy, to be perfect, to feed the poor and clothe the naked and overcome sin and refrain from deeds of the flesh and do good and be slaves to righteousness and be humble and meek and pure of heart in order to gain eternal life make sense, perfect sense, I might add.

Either way, as stated before, this perfection. this becoming "perfected in love" to put it most accurately, begins in the here and now but will not be fully completed until the next life.

 

[B Griffin]

I don’t believe in absolutism, not in this life at least.

I just made up the term "absolutism". But I see it in many contexts in Scripture. I would at least hope that you can embrace it in 1 Jn 5:17a -- "All unrighteousness is sin", in Ac 2:24 -- "having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it", in Heb 10:4 --"For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins", in Heb 11:6 -- "But without faith it is impossible to please Him", in Ro 14:23c -- "for whatever is not from faith is sin", and in Ac 4:12 -- "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved".

Musn't we accept as universally true everything Scripture tells us is universally true?

And why reject these seven universally true statements?

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.” (Ga 3:10–12)​

God will have us perfect in the end, however; He created no one to sin, after all.

Yes, we will be free of the sinful flesh upon our physical deaths. Our perfected spirits (Heb 12:23) will be further clothed so that we won't be naked (2 Cor 5:4).

But think about what you’re asserting here. You apparently hold to an “imputed absolutism”,

I don't believe in fake righteousness through faith if that's what your saying.

which at least acknowledges God’s continued requirement for some kind of righteousness attributed to man.

Yes, the requirement is and always has been for holiness and righteousness. People lost that when Adam and Eve sinned. To keep them from living forever separated from God by their sins, He removed them from the garden of Eden and placed an angel at the tree of life to prevent them from eating from it. Not until Christ died for our sins, rose from the dead, ascended to heaven, and sent the Spirit to live in people's hearts was mankind made truly righteous and holy (Eph 4:24) by way of God giving birth to them. The true righteousness and holiness of the new man fulfills the requirement for righteousness and holiness in every way. That's the part of us that will survive death and be further clothed.

But what’s the other side of the coin, then, that no gain towards actual perfection, no improvement in personal or individual righteousness can or must take place in a reborn person? Which is it? Does God now no longer demand that the sinner leave his life of sin?

The call to godly living isn't to obtain eternal life. It is a call to live out our human lives on earth consistently with the truly holy and righteous life that we already have in the new man.

The ancient church spoke of salvation as a journey-towards perfection, and a journey that necessarily takes place with God and a journey which man must be on. The journey actually started in Eden, albeit with a detour so to speak, away from its destiny which is God. But for those who will ultimately reside with Him, that detour ends up as simply part of the journey.

The false doctrine of progressive sanctification apparently has a long history.

Christianity does not demand absolute perfect sinlessness in this life. But perfection is nevertheless the goal. And with God this perfection is possible and will ultimately happen. How close to perfection must we be in this life with the gifts of righteousness: faith, hope, and love, along with any individual gifts of the Spirit, given at justification with the new life in the Spirit, the life of grace, now open to man?

I don't measure my relationship with God by the size of the gap between the sins that come out of the flesh and sinless perfection, I count all my sins as forgiven -- past, present, and future. Certainly, I would not presume to be able to judge anyone elses' relationship with God differently.

Read the Parable of the Talents. God expects a return, with more expected from those given more. He’ll be the judge of how well we did with all that at the end of the day. But we don’t rest on our laurels like the wicked and lazy servant.

Yes, we will receive different eternal rewards based on what we did with what He gave us. But as the following Scripture tells us, loss of salvation is not at stake:

9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Co 3:9–15)​

When understood this way all the admonishments and exhortations about needing to be holy, to be perfect, to feed the poor and clothe the naked and overcome sin and refrain from deeds of the flesh and do good and be slaves to righteousness and be humble and meek and pure of heart in order to gain eternal life make sense, perfect sense, I might add.

I might add James 3:1 -- "My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment." I, for one, take this verse seriously. It does not scare me away from fulfilling my calling, but it does give me extra incentive to make sure the things I write or say are OK with God. But I never fear that He will take away my salvation if I get some things wrong.

Either way, as stated before, this perfection. this becoming "perfected in love" to put it most accurately, begins in the here and now but will not be fully completed until the next life.

Here are all the verses that refer to being perfected in love:

1 John 2:5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.​

1 John 4:12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.​

1 John 4:17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.​

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.​

Can you point to the one that contains the concept of future completion? All of them use the perfect tense, meaning simple action in past time with emphasis on the results that continue to the present time.

 

[fhansen]

I just made up the term "absolutism". But I see it in many contexts in Scripture. I would at least hope that you can embrace it in 1 Jn 5:17a -- "All unrighteousness is sin", in Ac 2:24 -- "having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it", in Heb 10:4 --"For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins", in Heb 11:6 -- "But without faith it is impossible to please Him", in Ro 14:23c -- "for whatever is not from faith is sin", and in Ac 4:12 -- "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved".

Musn't we accept as universally true everything Scripture tells us is universally true?

And why reject these seven universally true statements?

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.” (Ga 3:10–12)

If one understands the gospel then they'll understand that nothing I said contradicts this, but only supports it. One must understand the role and purpose of faith. And I see that role misunderstood and stifled over and over.

So first I'll ask again. Are you saying that sin, lawlessness, is now ok under the new covenant? Are you antinomian? Is it alright or not for a believer to murder, to fornicate, to lie, to steal, as long as they believe??

God gives us a new righteousness now, apart from the law:
"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. Rom 3:21-22

It comes by faith:
"...not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith." Phil 3:9

This was the real thing; Paul detested the "righteousness" he possessed as a Pharisee, counting it all as garbage even though he excelled at it. Why? Because it was nothing but works of the law! Man-driven hypocrisy and self-righteousness, only the appearance of righteousness. Only God can make man right, can justify him-and man flew the coop centuries ago in Eden. Man must be reconciled with God in order to be who he was created to be. Faith is the realization of that reconciliation. It's to become right with God again as man, the creature, acknowledges the existence and superiority and necessity of his Creator. Faith makes God our God again, and that union is the basis and essence of justice for man. And that's why faith pleases God so much.

More on the gift of righteousness that is intrinsic to entering union with God, and remaining there:
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people." Jer 31:33-34

"And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us." Rom 5:5

"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!" Rom 5:17

“The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Rom 5:20-21

"You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:18-22]

"For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:3-4

“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.” Rom 8:12-14

“The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” Gal 2:20-21

Do you not believe that God can improve a human being, despite or without or apart from the law, with good fruit testifying to that change?

 

[fhansen]

The false doctrine of progressive salvation apparently has a long history.

The false doctrine of OSAS has a short one.

 

[fhansen]

I might add James 3:1 -- "My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment." I, for one, take this verse seriously. It does not scare me away from fulfilling my calling, but it does give me extra incentive to make sure the things I write or say are OK with God. But I never fear that He will take away my salvation if I get some things wrong.

Of course not, or we'd all be condemned. But you should consider that you've been influenced by a relatively new and novel gospel, and might want to give James 3:1 some serious thought.

 

[fhansen]

Yes, we will receive different eternal rewards based on what we did with what He gave us. But as the following Scripture tells us, loss of salvation is not at stake:

Sure it is:
"So take the bag of gold from him and give it to the one who has ten bags. For whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Matt 25:28-30

In the same chapter of Matthew the sheep and the goats were separated based on what they did, or failed do. Summing it all up the Church teaches it this way, quoting a 16th century believer in this case:
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

Faith was never considered to be a reprieve from man's obligation to be righteous, but as the authentic means to achieving that very thing, with God.

 

[fhansen]

Can you point to the one that contains the concept of future completion? All of them use the perfect tense, meaning simple action in past time with emphasis on the results that continue to the present time.

Do you love perfectly? Do you have no fear? Do you keep His word in all ways? Do you love God with your whole heart soul, mind, and strength and your neighbor as yourself-such that nothing can distract you from or oppose that love in your life? Or do just accomplish that love by imagination? God wants the real thing from- and for you. That's been his purpose since Eden-so that we ultimately attain to our created purpose, our telos; that's what salvation is all about. If Christian history means anything to you, Basil of Caesarea, a 4th century believer, put it this way:

“If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.”

Anyway, love, by its nature, excludes sin, so if you love perfectly you won't sin anyway-and will never want to. And I would never argue with that!

 

[B Griffin]

I don’t believe in absolutism, not in this life at least.

I just made up the term "absolutism". But I see it in many contexts in Scripture. I would at least hope that you can embrace it in 1 Jn 5:17a, in Ac 2:24, in Heb 10:4, in Heb 11:6, in Ro 14:23c, and in Ac 4:12. Musn't we accept as universally true everything Scripture tells us is universally true? And why reject these seven universally true statements in Ga 3:10–12?

If one understands the gospel then they'll understand that nothing I said contradicts this, but only supports it.

It's good that you do see some absolutes in Scripture.

One must understand the role and purpose of faith. And I see that role misunderstood and stifled over and over.

"Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness" (Ro 4:4–5).​

I contend that a person does not earn (or maintain) his salvation through obedience to God's laws. If he could, then salvation would be owed to him, making God a debtor, and would not be a product of God's grace. A person is gifted his salvation when he does not work for it but believes in the God who saves the ungodly. That person's trust in God is counted as righteousness.

There will never be a successful replacement of "salvation by grace through faith" with "salvation by works through faith".

So first I'll ask again. Are you saying that sin, lawlessness, is now ok under the new covenant?

This doesn't even make sense. To quote you, "If one understands the gospel then they'll understand that nothing I said [supports] this".

Are you antinomian?

I do not identify as an antinomian. But there are some things the law can't do. Primarily among those is it can't save people. If God could have written a set of laws such that following them would produce eternal life, then He would have written those laws and would not have sacrificed His Son:

For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. (Ga 3:21)​

I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain. (Ga 2:21)​

If this is an antinomian concept, then they got at least one concept right.

Is it alright or not for a believer to murder, to fornicate, to lie, to steal, as long as they believe??

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. (Ga 5:16–18)​

There is not a person in whom Christ lives who thinks the way you describe. Every person "who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him" (1 Co 6:17). Every single one of them wants to live a life free of sin because he detests sin.

God gives us a new righteousness now, apart from the law:
"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. Rom 3:21-22

It comes by faith:
"...not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith." Phil 3:9

This was the real thing; Paul detested the "righteousness" he possessed as a Pharisee, counting it all as garbage even though he excelled at it. Why? Because it was nothing but works of the law! Man-driven hypocrisy and self-righteousness, only the appearance of righteousness. Only God can make man right, can justify him-and man flew the coop centuries ago in Eden. Man must be reconciled with God in order to be who he was created to be. Faith is the realization of that reconciliation. It's to become right with God again as man, the creature, acknowledges the existence and superiority and necessity of his Creator. Faith makes God our God again, and that union is the basis and essence of justice for man. And that's why faith pleases God so much.

More on the gift of righteousness that is intrinsic to entering union with God, and remaining there:
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people." Jer 31:33-34

"And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us." Rom 5:5

"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!" Rom 5:17

“The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Rom 5:20-21

"You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:18-22]

"For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:3-4

“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.” Rom 8:12-14

“The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” Gal 2:20-21

Do you not believe that God can improve a human being, despite or without or apart from the law, with good fruit testifying to that change?

Yes, the improvement is so great that it is not measurable:

3 ...His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. (2 Pe 1:3–4)​

 

[B Griffin]

The false doctrine of OSAS has a short one.

Not so short:

"And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish" (Jn 10:28).​