Satire: Carter and Mashel wed

[Ramona]

Word to your Clippy, there.

 

[GeratTzedek]

Except that you don't. You tag all of a certain ethnic group with the labels "terrorist" and "Amalekite" and then advocate killing every one of them.

Lie. Slander.

 

[GeratTzedek]

There isn't anything to argue... you're talking about how there aren't any refugees, how there needs to be a fight to the death, you ridicule serious attempts to bring about peace and you think all of this is appropriate because of some sort of God given right to be special. You're not special, and none of that has to do with God. That's evil. You don't need to argue with evil, it's axiomatic... you merely have to point it out and choose to embrace it or reject it.

So.... you think anyone advocating war for any reason is fascist? And you think you don't have to make an argument for that position?

Your icon is Catholic, meaning you accept the Hebrew Scriptures as part of your canon as well. That means if you are actually believing and practicing your religion, YOU ALSO accept that G-d set Israel aside from all other peoples, and gave them the land forever.

Tell me about what your Bible has to say about those who shout "Peace, Peace" when there is no peace.

 

[GeratTzedek]

For the time being, the outside world pretty much agrees on their refugee status, and considers Israel liable to do something about it. Like stop the whole colonialism thing.

Care to tell me exactly how that was an inaccurate exaggeration?

Losing all their property would be an example.

So tell me something. I have a friend who came with his family as refugees from Iran. I'm glad he is here, actually -- G-d help any Jew left behind in Iran when the Ayatollah took over. Does your heart bleed equally for him?

 

[Ramona]

Lie. Slander.

Nice retort. Could you maybe show us where and how he lied? In all honesty, I'm inclined to agree with him.

Oh, and slander is spoken. Libel is written.

 

[Futuwwa]

Losing all their property would be an example.

Ok, they maybe didn't lose the clothes they were wearing or what else they could carry by hand, but that's quite insiginficant compared to losing your house, your farm and whatever else you made a living out of.

So tell me something. I have a friend who came with his family as refugees from Iran. I'm glad he is here, actually -- G-d help any Jew left behind in Iran when the Ayatollah took over. Does your heart bleed equally for him?

Not equally, no, because he has been given a new home, in a prosperous state. The Palestinians have been given none, but rather made go through 60 years of military occupation, their existence on the mercy of the whims of whoever has currently been in charge in Israel.

This is so typical. Whenever confronted with the events of 1948, they are either denied outright, rationalized away in some way which doesn't make Israel appear guilty, or are brushed aside by referring to the irrelevancy of Jews simultaneously getting expelled from elsewhere.

Wishful denial is a powerful emotion, making people believe in all kinds of absurdities. Until the majority in Israel is willing to face its past and understand their part in creating the Palestinian problem, there can be no fair peace.

 

[GeratTzedek]

Futuwwa, here is one of our fundamental differences. You give the Palestinians eternal victimhood. I think this sabatogues them. I think they sabatogue themselves.

You see, what you said was untrue. He was NOT given a new home in a new land. He had to work for it. He made a new home for himself. And that is what most refugees do. They do not choose to wallow as victims. They are survivors. Palestinians need to make new lives for themselves, instead of allowing circumstances to ruin their lives. Right now, the majority of them are what I call "victims by choice."

Have you even ever read the rationale for making Israel a Jewish state? I doubt it, or you wouldn't have made the remarks in your post above. From a purely non-religious POV, establishing Israel as a Jewish state was the lesser of evils. For all the problems it caused, the problem of NOT having a Jewish state was significantly MORE evil.

Getting back to the question ... Just as the Jews who first returned to the land found it harsh and inhospitable, they WORKED to make it prosperous. The world needs to see Palestinians doing the same.

 

[GeratTzedek]

Nice retort. Could you maybe show us where and how he lied? In all honesty, I'm inclined to agree with him.

I have NEVER EVER stated that every person in ANY ethnic group was a terrorist. I have NEVER EVER advocated the genocide of any ethnic group.

What you are remembering is my "Amalek" thread which posed QUESTIONS. In that thread, I drew the obvious comparison between Amalekite culture and Palestinian culture, and ASKED what people thought should be an approrpriate respose given this. I asked because it is something I am wondering about. The only thing you can accuse me of is stating that Palestinian culture is a terrorist culture, and I stand by that remark. NO WHERE in that thread or anywhere else have I either stated that all Palestinians were terrorists, or advocated their genocide.

I have in other threads advocated going to utter war with Hamas and stop WASTING LIVES AND TIME trying to make peace with them. This is NOT branding all Palestinians as terrorists, but it is branding all those who voluntarily are part of Hamas as terrorists. That is not an ethnic thing. Wanting to win a war is NOT the same thing as advocating genocide.

Thus, the accusations against me were LIES.

 

[Snowbunny]

So.... you think anyone advocating war for any reason is fascist? And you think you don't have to make an argument for that position?

No, I think your words speak for themself.

Your icon is Catholic, meaning you accept the Hebrew Scriptures as part of your canon as well. That means if you are actually believing and practicing your religion, YOU ALSO accept that G-d set Israel aside from all other peoples, and gave them the land forever.

Uh-no. You clearly learned nothing from the prophet Amos. It was taken away for the Hebrews tremendous failure to live up to their part of the covenant. Their kingdoms were crushed, their people were scattered and they have never come back together. Perhaps someday God will allow them to be in the Holy Land again; that is completely up to them and whether they wish to be obedient to His word and accept His new covenant.

Tell me about what your Bible has to say about those who shout "Peace, Peace" when there is no peace.

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.

 

[Futuwwa]

Futuwwa, here is one of our fundamental differences. You give the Palestinians eternal victimhood. I think this sabatogues them. I think they sabatogue themselves.

You see, what you said was untrue. He was NOT given a new home in a new land. He had to work for it. He made a new home for himself. And that is what most refugees do. They do not choose to wallow as victims. They are survivors. Palestinians need to make new lives for themselves, instead of allowing circumstances to ruin their lives. Right now, the majority of them are what I call "victims by choice."

Have you even ever read the rationale for making Israel a Jewish state? I doubt it, or you wouldn't have made the remarks in your post above. From a purely non-religious POV, establishing Israel as a Jewish state was the lesser of evils. For all the problems it caused, the problem of NOT having a Jewish state was significantly MORE evil.

Getting back to the question ... Just as the Jews who first returned to the land found it harsh and inhospitable, they WORKED to make it prosperous. The world needs to see Palestinians doing the same.

Your friend was given citizenship of a stable, prosperous country. He was given ample opportunity to rebuild, opportunity that the Palestinians have never had.

Allowing circumstances to ruin their lives? "Allow", as in allow Israel to arbitrarily control their lives, blockade their borders, restrict their movement, control their natural resources, deny them build permits, and arbitrarily raze and confiscate their property. There's a great deal of "choice" in victimhood when alternatives are taken from you.

Yes, they need to build a new Palestine. But Israel needs to help them in that, not keep deliberately preventing them from doing so. Whether the "perpetual victimhood" is a smart thing to do, that neither changes the fact that Israel (largely) caused it, and is liable to do something about it.

 

[GeratTzedek]

I don't know where you get the idea that Palestinians have no opportunity. In the territories, they are better off and have a higher standard of living than the average Muslim in any Muslim country. If they choose not to take advantage of the opportunities surrounding them, or choose not to appreciate what they have, that is simply self destructive behavior on their part . That you feed their victim mentality instead of encouraging them to make a go of their lives is very cruel on your part.

You say my friend was given opportunities-- yet right here in Los Angeles there are many "victims" of "racism" and "class exploitation" who are just as mired in a "can't do" mentality as the Palestinians -- they are destitute because The Man is holding them down. Yet somehow in this terrible, racist, classist area, my friend and his family made a go of things. He was not handed anything on a silver platter--he worked his butt off. He made a life here in Los Angeles where many others feel victimized, and he did it having to learn a new language and culture. Give him the credit he deserves.

 

[GeratTzedek]

You clearly learned nothing from the prophet Amos. It was taken away for the Hebrews tremendous failure to live up to their part of the covenant.

There is a difference between being taken from the land, and the land being taken away. When my teenage son doesn't clean up his room, he looses access to his computer and PSP as part of my discipline of him. But I haven't actually taken away his ownership of those things. I don't give them away to other people. When his room is clean I give them back. The land, in a nutshell, belongs to Israel FOREVER, whether G-d is disciplining or not. It cannot ever "belong" to any other people. They can live there, but it will never be theirs.

Their kingdoms were crushed, their people were scattered and they have never come back together. Perhaps someday God will allow them to be in the Holy Land again; that is completely up to them and whether they wish to be obedient to His word and accept His new covenant.

Never come back? What can I say. If you are this blind to current events, this out of touch with reality, there is zero chance for any profitable discussion with you.

What I see is this: the fulfillment of the prophecy to bring Israel out of the land of the north, dwarfing the exodus from Egypt. The overwhelming majority of Christians I know see the rebirth of Israel and the gathering of Jews back from their scattering as evidence of the coming Messianic age.

I am not going to bother responding to you in the future. Your manner of posting doesn't reason. It serves no purpose to reply to those who simply make proclomations without argument.

 

[Futuwwa]

I don't know where you get the idea that Palestinians have no opportunity. In the territories, they are better off and have a higher standard of living than the average Muslim in any Muslim country. If they choose not to take advantage of the opportunities surrounding them, or choose not to appreciate what they have, that is simply self destructive behavior on their part . That you feed their victim mentality instead of encouraging them to make a go of their lives is very cruel on your part.

Opportunities? What opportunities? This? Or this? Israel is doubly culpable, both for not helping when it is liable, and for making things worse.

Better standard of living than in any Muslim country? Better than in Kuwait? Turkey? UAE? Please tell me you weren't serious saying that.

 

[Ramona]

UAE is awesome. Dubai ftw!!

 

[GeratTzedek]

http://www.tari.org/Sheet_4.htm
This source, which is HOSTILE to Israel, nevertheless admits that as of 1993, the territories had a standard of living HIGHER than both Egypt and Jordon (the countries that occupied the territories prior to Israel).

According to this source http://www.house.gov/jec/hearings/israel/einhorn.htm, the territories have seen steady, significant, and overall improvement. For example, prior to Israeli occupation, there were no universities in the territories. All universities in the territories were built DURING Israeli occupation. Basic literacy levels have increased during Israeli occupation. Despite Israel being prevented from building permanent housing in the refugee areas, housing conditions there have nevertheless significantly improved, as "in 1986, 95% of the Households in Gaza had running water and 100% had electricity (compared with 3 percent for water and 14% for electricity in 1974)." "Private consumption per capita [and per capita includes population growth, which was among the highest in the world in the territories] rose during 1969-1986 at an overall rate of 5% per annum."

What is fascinating is that Palestinians became wealthier and better off despite Arab nations boycotting goods exported from the territories, despite the violence of Hamas forcing Israel to close its borders to workers from the territories, despite the corruption of Fatah siphoning off money for do-nothing bureaucratic positions, etc. Despite all going against their development, Palestinians are STILL better off today than had Isael not won these territories during the six day war.

So just think how much even MORE prosperous they would be if they stopped the victim mentality, if Hamas stopped its violence, if Fatah were no longer corrupt, and if Arab countries supported their economic growth.

 

[GeratTzedek]

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb4803/is_/ai_n17451742
Here is yet another great artical, this one by BNET {Business Network):

The standard of living in the Administered Territories is on the rise. A survey of the Central Bureau of Statistics for the period ending June 30, 1992 shows 81.2 percent of the homes have refrigerators. This compares with 66.3 percent in 1985 and 51.5 percent in 1981. In the same period the number of washing machine ...

 

[GeratTzedek]

http://www.ujc.org/page.html?ArticleID=105003
This artical quotes statistics from United Nations documents, and we all know the UN is anti-Israel:

The most recent Human Development Report from the United Nations ranks the PA 102nd in terms of life expectancy, educational attainment and adjusted real income out of the 177 countries and territories in the world, placing it in the “medium human development” category along with most of the other Middle Eastern states (only the Gulf sheikdoms are ranked “high&#8221. The PA is ranked just 12 places below Jordan and one behind Iran; it is rated ahead of Syria (#105), Algeria (#108), Egypt (#120), and Morocco (#125) (“Human Development Report 2004,” United Nations Development Programme, 2005).

 

[GeratTzedek]

http://blog.camera.org/archives/2005/09/missing_un_repo.html
Here is a summary of the 2005 UN Human development Report and the index ranking 176 countries plus the Palestinian Arabs by CAMERA Snapshots

September 19, 2005

Missing UN Report on Palestinian Living Standards

U.N. SAYS PALESTINIANS FARE BETTER THAN OTHER ARABS
Palestinian Arabs living in the Israeli-controlled West Bank and Gaza Strip have fared better in terms of life expectancy, adjusted real income, and educational attainment than many fellow Arabs, according to the United Nations. The U.N.’s 2005 Human Development Report, released to coincide with this month’s opening session of the U.N. General Assembly, ranks the Arabs of what it calls “Occupied Palestinian Territories” at 102 out of 177 countries.
The Associated Press and other wire services filed dispatches mentioning the report’s general finding – that not enough is being done for the 40 percent of the world’s people who live on less than $2 a day. But a September 19 Nexis search showed no news coverage of the study’s ranking of Palestinian Arabs under “Israeli occupation” higher than Algerians (103), Syrians (106), Egyptians (119), Moroccans (124) and Yemeni (151). Based on data for 2003 – a period of frequent Israeli counter-terrorism responses to the “al-Aqsa intifada” – the Arabs of the West Bank and Gaza Strip also were not far behind Tunisians (89) and Jordanians (90).
Contradicting the story-line
A great deal of news media commentary, and not a little reporting, has portrayed the Palestinian Arabs as impoverished, and forced by Israel to endure substandard if not subhuman living conditions. The U.N.’s 2005 Human Development Report suggests otherwise, the Palestinian ranking of 102 falling into the “medium human development” listing. For purposes of comparison, Norway (1), Iceland (2), Australia (3), the United States (10) and Japan (11) are among the 57 countries classified offering “high human development” and Madagascar (146), Swaziland (147), Sierra Leone (176) and Niger (177) bookend the “low human development” category.
Israel ranks 23 in the U.N. report. The top Arab states are the oil-rich, population poor sheikdoms of Qatar (40), United Arab Emirates (41), Bahrain (43) and Kuwait (44).
Arabs' Self-Inflicted Woes
At first glance, the 2005 study might seem to conflict with the U.N.’s 2004 Arab Human Development Report, which asserted that the standard of living for 58 percent of the Palestinian population fell below the poverty line. But without the self-inflicted damage of the Palestinian’s 2000 - 2005 terrorism war against Israel, the territories – whose economies had grown markedly in the Oslo “peace process” years of 1993 - 2000 – likely would be listed even further ahead of Algeria, Syria, Egypt, Morocco and Yemen. As the under-reported 2004 study noted, much of what really ails the Arab countries, and the Palestinian Arabs, are “deficits of freedom,” including lack of Western-style political, religious, minority and women’s rights and the prevalence of corrupt, oppressive, unrepresentative governments.
Harry Golden, editor of the Carolina Israelite and author of the 1958 bestseller, Only in America, said that after a lifetime of clipping news articles, he often found that the important stories were on the back. Or, in this case of Palestinian living standards under Israeli control, especially compared to Arab brethren under their own sovereign governments, nowhere at all.

This important story deserves to be covered for at least three reasons: 1) the facts it reveals about Palestinian standards of living – as compared to fragmentary and often misleading feature reporting about “Palestinians under Israeli occupation”; 2) the under-reported reality of life in many Arab states;, and 3) the virtually unreported Israeli efforts to normalize daily life for peaceful Palestinians as much as possible.

 

[Snowbunny]

There is a difference between being taken from the land, and the land being taken away. When my teenage son doesn't clean up his room, he looses access to his computer and PSP as part of my discipline of him. But I haven't actually taken away his ownership of those things. I don't give them away to other people. When his room is clean I give them back. The land, in a nutshell, belongs to Israel FOREVER, whether G-d is disciplining or not. It cannot ever "belong" to any other people. They can live there, but it will never be theirs.

See the difference is, this is reality, not an analogy. You are not God and the Hebrews are not teenage children. They have broken their covenant with God, and are (past & present) punished for it by being sent away by God. Someday, when they live up to their covenant and when they accept Jesus God promises He will bring them back together and put them back in Israel. Until then, you have absolutely no business talking about God willing any of this modern tragedy or comparing the situation to some kind of disciplinary action you've had with your son.

Never come back? What can I say. If you are this blind to current events, this out of touch with reality, there is zero chance for any profitable discussion with you.

I'm quite in touch with reality. Here, in reality, I see a peacemaker attempting to broker a deal between two incredibly cruel factions so that they will stop their obliterating each other in their quest for ethnic cleansing.

I also see God, here, in reality. And He's with Jimmy Carter, working to make peace. Jimmy Carter is the only one who is following what God said: "blessed are the peacemakers."

What I see is this: the fulfillment of the prophecy to bring Israel out of the land of the north, dwarfing the exodus from Egypt. The overwhelming majority of Christians I know see the rebirth of Israel and the gathering of Jews back from their scattering as evidence of the coming Messianic age.

You don't see anything. There are twelve tribes of Israel, 10 of which are utterly lost, except for some sketchy nonsense based on DNA tests. The tribes are utterly lost, "Israel" is just an ethnic nation state not the monastic kingdom God created. This is man's sad attempt to undo God's will.

I am not going to bother responding to you in the future. Your manner of posting doesn't reason. It serves no purpose to reply to those who simply make proclomations without argument.

Says the one who makes prophesies about the Hebrews returning.

 

[GeratTzedek]

It's been a long time since I've heard someone espouse the anti-Semitic drivel that G-d has cursed the Jews.