salvation according to the EO

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The Orthodox Church by Bishop Kallistos Ware is the usual starting place. I found the late great Father John Meyendorf's books helpful, but I was coming from the Catholic Church needing to understand the Orthodox view on the papacy, so Protestants might not see him as helpful. Father Hopko online is a good resource as well.


Can someone name some good books on EO beliefs? The more I read on CF the more I like about the EO. Also if one lives in an area with no EO church what would be close?
 
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Anna Scott

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. . . .what's beautiful about Orthodoxy is . . . .

Gurney,
The words you wrote went straight to my heart. What a beautiful testament to your faith. I'm truly overwhelmed. . . . .

Anna
 
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You're too kind, Anna. Lots of love, sister...

Gurney,
The words you wrote went straight to my heart. What a beautiful testament to your faith. I'm truly overwhelmed. . . . .

Anna
 
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ArmyMatt

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think of faith and works like the Incarnate God. in Christ, there is 100% humanity and 100% divinity, not 50/50 or whatever, but dual 100%'s. well, our faith reflects Him, so we have works (reflecting His humanity) and faith (reflecting His divinity). the two are not to be divided against one another. so if one asks is it faith or works that save, our answer should be yes. and of course, this is started and sustained by God's grace.

in the Gospels, Christ also says things that those who do the will of the Father will be saved, He tells us to endure to the end, commands us to love, etc all of which are works.
 
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Lukaris

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but this really annoying arguments that protestsants use is that oh "our religon is the only religon that does not require human works it must be from a divine scource!"

Acts 26:20
But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
 
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Ignatius21

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oh and what about acts 16 with the jailer and john 3:16 what about those verses?

Could you perhaps elaborate on where you see a contradiction with these verses, and what's been said so far? Or where Protestants have told you they see a contradiction?

When I think of John 3:16, "For God so loved the world...that whoever believes in him will have eternal life..." I did once hear someone say "you see, it says BELIEVE in him, so that rules out any kind of works."

Christ says that if anyone loves him, they will keep his commandments. Belief without action is not belief. Obedience earns nothing, but belief without obedience is not belief.

It is really not that complicated, I'm convinced. I believe it was made so complicated in the scholastic systems of so many centuries ago, that Protestants had to go to heroic lengths and linguistic gynmastics to find a way to get rid of Purgatory and works of merit, while still retaining the same scholastic framework (same basic understanding of sin, merit, satisfaction and punishment, etc.)
 
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Ignatius21

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think of faith and works like the Incarnate God. in Christ, there is 100% humanity and 100% divinity, not 50/50 or whatever, but dual 100%'s. well, our faith reflects Him, so we have works (reflecting His humanity) and faith (reflecting His divinity). the two are not to be divided against one another. so if one asks is it faith or works that save, our answer should be yes. and of course, this is started and sustained by God's grace.

in the Gospels, Christ also says things that those who do the will of the Father will be saved, He tells us to endure to the end, commands us to love, etc all of which are works.

:thumbsup:

Mystical math.
 
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choirfiend

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You know, all ye who loved gurney's answer....that beauty is simply the beauty of Orthodox teaching. It's the beauty of true Christianity. Maybe you should come check it out.

American vet, the rainbow series is available to read online at oca.org go search for it thee and enjoy! Other common starter books are The orthodox church and the orthodox way by Timothy/kallistos ware, the way of the pilgrim, and I like divine energies: the orthodox path to Christian victory by Jon Braun. Happy reading!
 
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Ignatius21

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To be clear, the classical (Lutheran, Reformed, etc) Protestant position on "faith alone" is not and never was salvation by faith alone. The "sola fide" was shorthand for "justification by grace alone through faith alone." There is a lot of philosophy behind those words, with instrumental and efficient causes and the like.

The key is that the Reformation singled out the topic of justification as an article "upon which the church stands or falls" and it became the epicenter of the whole resistance to Rome. The Reformers defined "justification" in the very narrow sense of a legal acquittal in a courtroom, a "not guilty" verdict handed down by the judge. Now, clearly works can have no place in this, because "if you O Lord should judge iniquity, who could stand?" Nobody. If we are judged (in God's courtroom) on the basis of our own works, then we're sunk, because we're sinful, plain and simple. Nobody can stand before God guilty and polluted. But wait! Christ steps in and "covers us" with his righteousness, so that God "sees" only Christ's "legal record" of sinless obedience, thus, we are justified...acquitted of any wrongdoing...on the basis of Christ's good works. Or in another way of saying it, Christ merits our justificaiton. Of course, as God is both just and loving, while love demands forgiveness, justice demands punishment. So Christ also bears all our punishment on the cross. So in the final analysis, we are justified by a "double transaction" or "double imputation" wherein God "sees us" as righteous, and "sees Christ" as sinful, and he takes the beating while we get the glory. Of course, because Christ isn't really guilty, he cannot see corruption, so he was resurrected and we all will likewise be resurrected unto his glory...if we have been justified by a double imputation.

Since we cannot merit any of this...it must be given sola gratia, by the grace of God alone...we must lay hold of it by faith alone. Here, further distinctions are made, in which faith is "knowledge, assent, and trust" but not action. That's critical to Protestant theology. Faith cannot and must not ever be confused with action. Otherwise we've worked to earn this double imputation. Obedience, they say, is the "outworking" of faith, it's fruit, and the "proof" that our faith is genuine.

"Salvation" is the umbrella term that also includes the changed life and the ultimate glorification in resurrection. Here, it is taught that if someone for all outward appearances has become a Christian...been baptized, taken communion, attended church, all that...but has not inwardly changed to live according to Christ's commands...then that person never was justified. He was a wolf in sheep's clothing, essentially.

So...works are still essential to salvation in the Protestant system of doctrine. And the root of all salvation is the work of Christ, both in obedience to God's commands ("active") and in submitting to God's punishment on the cross ("passive").

I immersed myself in these books for 8 years. I likely still "know" Protestant theology better than Orthodoxy. I didn't have kids then, of course, so all I did was read :D

I wanted to point all that out again, because when arguments begin between Orthodox and Protestants over "salvation by works," all the terms are being used in different senses. Different things are meant by "salvation," "justification," and even by "faith" and by "works." Even "grace" is understood quite differently. Discussions are doomed to go in circles unless the two sides can understand each other's meaning, which virtually never happens, because almost every key Protestant doctrine down the line was developed as a rejection of elements of medeival Catholic theology, whereas Orthodoxy never adopted those elements to begin with. Thus the "faith and works" fight makes sense in the Rome vs. Geneva world, but not in the Orthodox world. We're just in a different orbit.

Someone was quoted in Met. Kallistos' book as saying that the problem with Protestantism is that it hasn't shaken off it's Roman Catholicism. I think there's a lot of truth to that (at least to the part that says Protestantism is FAR more Roman Catholic than it would ever care to believe).

Throw in the fact that Protestantism presupposes both a canon of Scripture and a correct method of interpreting it, both of which differ fundamentally from Orthodoxy, and you have almost two parallel universes.
 
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Ignatius21

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that salvation is by faith alone, those lines constantly get tossed around by protestants

Oh yeah, absolutely. The fine distinctions have long disappeared among the vast majority of evangelicals, and "saved by faith" has come to mean "made a decision after reading a tract, and came forward at an altar call after a concert, and now I'm totally saved 100% and can't ever lose it, even if I totally quit coming to church forever, and I don't have to do anything or obey or even change my sinful life because that would be 'salvation by works' and we can't have that."

It's a watered down "gospel" that is almost as much an affront to the Protestant Reformers as it is to Orthodoxy.
 
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Loriella

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Thanks Ignatius! I was thinking something similar (I wrote a paper in high school as a protestant on the necessity of sanctification to salvation).

It bugs me when Orthodox doctrine is set up against a straw man of incorrectly depicted protestant doctrines. It makes it seem like we have to stack the deck to "win"... :)

Note: I'm not pointing a finger at anyone in this thread or any other. I just really liked Ignatius' post....
 
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