Salt Lake City Bar Under Fire for Its ‘No Zionists Allowed’ Policy

[essentialsaltes]

A sigh and a slow shake of the head.

My spouse and I, more often than I like to admit.

 

[durangodawood]

I don't know what you're talking about. Non-Jews in Israel have all the rights Jews have. They serve the in the Israeli parliament and on their Supreme Court.

Im talking about a state premised on the idea that your "type" has to remain a minority. In so many ways I'm sympathetic with the Zionist project. But I just cant seem to square that with my modern fangled western sensibilities that are repelled by the idea that race or religion is a critical distinction for the state.

Imagine if America gave equal rights to blacks - with the understanding that the whole country would be ruined should they gain a majority. Its just an offensive principle to have lingering in your founding ideology, even if practically its unlikely to come into play. How do you get past this? Or are you ok with such a principle?

 

[Chesterton]

Im thinking more of west bank areas where the "patriarchs" walked. Im not aware of any particular ideological interest in Gaza.

Okay, well here's what I know from what I've read and heard: the majority of settlers simply like the land for the same reasons you or I would. It's a beautiful hilly area with scenic views, nice weather, it's quiet and peaceful (no terrorism outside of the big cities). But yes there is a minority of the religious who see reclaiming the land as destiny. There is an international organization which raises money to buy land from Arabs, and since there is a stigma against selling to Jews, they have to pay many times the normal market price. But what's important to remember is that these are legitimate, legal real estate transactions.

 

[Chesterton]

Im talking about a state premised on the idea that your "type" has to remain a minority.

Do you have a citation for this? I've not heard that Israel is premised on this idea. However...

Imagine if America gave equal rights to blacks - with the understanding that the whole country would be ruined should they gain a majority. Its just an offensive principle to have lingering in your founding ideology, even if practically its unlikely to come into play. How do you get past this? Or are you ok with such a principle?

You raise an interesting point. Their was this "Jewish problem" that they were despised everywhere that they were a minority. Ever seen the statistics on Jewish population declines in Arab countries? In some countries it's gone from hundreds of thousands to literally zero Jews. So if Israel were to become a majority Arab nation (bearing in mind that the vast majority of them are Muslims who are taught that Jews are monkeys and swine who must be killed) I'm not sure that that would work out well. Maybe Jews do need to maintain a majority Jewish population.

 

[durangodawood]

Do you have a citation for this? I've not heard that Israel is premised on this idea. However...

You arent aware that Israel is premised on being a Jewish state? Yes, that is the same thing as "your type remaining in the minority" - if you arent Jewish.

You raise an interesting point. Their was this "Jewish problem" that they were despised everywhere that they were a minority. Ever seen the statistics on Jewish population declines in Arab countries? In some countries it's gone from hundreds of thousands to literally zero Jews. So if Israel were to become a majority Arab nation (bearing in mind that the vast majority of them are Muslims who are taught that Jews are monkeys and swine who must be killed) I'm not sure that that would work out well. Maybe Jews do need to maintain a majority Jewish population.

So the answer for you is: they need an identity based nation/state because there's nowhere else to go where they wouldn't have been killed? But USA seems to be a pretty Jew tolerant place. I have loads of Jewish relatives who fled here from persecution, and they are all doing well.

 

[Chesterton]

You arent aware that Israel is premised on being a Jewish state? Yes, that is the same thing as "your type remaining in the minority" - if you arent Jewish.

So the answer for you is: they need an identity based nation/state because there's nowhere else to go where they wouldn't have been killed?

Yeah I guess that's my answer. The Jews may be historically unusual in some respects but not unique. The Kurds want their own nation. Many of the Basques of Spain want their own nation. We all know about the "Troubles" between the English and the Irish. There are Californians who want to divide California into at least six different states, lol. I don't think there's necessarily anything inherently wrong about wanting to live among your own kind, especially when you've been victimized everywhere else.

But USA seems to be a pretty Jew tolerant place. I have loads of Jewish relatives who fled here from persecution, and they are all doing well.

Yes, one of the reasons I'm proud to be an American. We're a very tolerant place.

 

[BCP1928]

Okay, well here's what I know from what I've read and heard: the majority of settlers simply like the land for the same reasons you or I would. It's a beautiful hilly area with scenic views, nice weather, it's quiet and peaceful (no terrorism outside of the big cities). But yes there is a minority of the religious who see reclaiming the land as destiny. There is an international organization which raises money to buy land from Arabs, and since there is a stigma against selling to Jews, they have to pay many times the normal market price. But what's important to remember is that these are legitimate, legal real estate transactions.

Do you actually believe that or are you just saying it to make yourself feel better?

 

[Ana the Ist]

“As many are, we are horrified by the ongoing genocide in Gaza and are even more horrified to see so many Americans ignore and rationalize ethnic cleansing. That is why we are pleased to announce we are banning all zionists forever from our establishments,” the Weathered Waves bar posted on Instagram.

Its owner, former [no party; winning 7% of the vote] mayoral candidate Michael Valentine, responded to backlash by stressing that “we are banning zionists, not Jews.”

In comments to The Salt Lake Tribune, he said: “It is not antisemitic to say we are anti-genocide. That’s what we’re saying… I literally say in the post I’m not banning Jews. This is not about that.”

--

While unwise and unhelpful, this is probably within the owner's rights, as long as he's sincere that it's about banning those who espouse the political position of Zionism, rather than banning Jews.

Well...it's pretty gross...but I agree, probably allowed. You could similarly stick a no nazis or no commies sign in the window.

One might wonder why he thinks that the Jewish people should forever be denied a state. Seems odd to single them out unless you're antisemitic.

 

[BCP1928]

Shouldn't have said "Zionist." Should have said "No supporters of Netanyahu's policy. allowed" My wife is Jewish and would happily put that sign on our front door.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Do you actually believe that or are you just saying it to make yourself feel better?

Well I'd be lying if I said "multiculturalism" seems to be working well.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Im talking about a state premised on the idea that your "type" has to remain a minority. In so many ways I'm sympathetic with the Zionist project. But I just cant seem to square that with my modern fangled western sensibilities that are repelled by the idea that race or religion is a critical distinction for the state.

Imagine if America gave equal rights to blacks - with the understanding that the whole country would be ruined should they gain a majority. Its just an offensive principle to have lingering in your founding ideology, even if practically its unlikely to come into play. How do you get past this? Or are you ok with such a principle?

Well...the issue, ground down to its most basic question, is who controls the land?

Imo...it's actually a matter of status quo...we'll know who controls the land by their ability to control the land.

A little thought experiment...

Let's imagine some space billionaire terraforms Mars and offers a first come first served option to pick your own plot of land. Just make sure you've clearly marked what is yours. You arrive first, put up a fence around roughly 20 acres of Martian territory....and plant your flag. That is your land. I arrive second, with just a flag, which I plant outside your fence and announce that everything outside your fence is mine.

Clearly I've followed the rules. However, I doubt anyone would think this was good or fair or right or anything....even if it were 100% legal. Nor does anyone really believe that I will be able to prevent the loss of my land to anyone coming in great numbers....despite my insistence that it is mine.

It doesn't matter, I can't control it, I may have a legal claim....some may argue that I even have a moral claim....but I can't possibly prevent 200,000 people from showing up and taking my land. It doesn't matter if I hate them...and I might hate them....for taking my land.

Status quo...the way it is, not the way I want it.

If that makes sense then when I say I have no problem with Jewish settlers buying up land for sale, and Palestinian herders being upset at the new Jewish settlers. If they cannot resolve whatever differences they have....they will fight over it, legally, morally, economically, and physically. The only good result is one that ends the fighting....and if that is the expulsion of Palestinians from Gaza, so be it.

Status quo.

 

[BCP1928]

Well I'd be lying if I said "multiculturalism" seems to be working well.

What has that got to do with ownership of land?

 

[Hank77]

With a total of 6,000ish Jews in the entire state of Utah it’s unlikely any one of any flavor frequented the place to begin with.

Christian Zionism is common among evangelicals.

 

[durangodawood]

Christian Zionism is common among evangelicals.

Not to mention the concept of "Zion" generally is huge in Mormon theology and literature. Even Zions Bank was started by the church.

Not sure how they regard Jewish zionism. But the concept is parallel to Mormon zionism for sure.

 

[durangodawood]

Well...the issue, ground down to its most basic question, is who controls the land?

Imo...it's actually a matter of status quo...we'll know who controls the land by their ability to control the land.

A little thought experiment...

Let's imagine some space billionaire terraforms Mars and offers a first come first served option to pick your own plot of land. Just make sure you've clearly marked what is yours. You arrive first, put up a fence around roughly 20 acres of Martian territory....and plant your flag. That is your land. I arrive second, with just a flag, which I plant outside your fence and announce that everything outside your fence is mine.

Clearly I've followed the rules. However, I doubt anyone would think this was good or fair or right or anything....even if it were 100% legal. Nor does anyone really believe that I will be able to prevent the loss of my land to anyone coming in great numbers....despite my insistence that it is mine.

It doesn't matter, I can't control it, I may have a legal claim....some may argue that I even have a moral claim....but I can't possibly prevent 200,000 people from showing up and taking my land. It doesn't matter if I hate them...and I might hate them....for taking my land.

Status quo...the way it is, not the way I want it.

If that makes sense then when I say I have no problem with Jewish settlers buying up land for sale, and Palestinian herders being upset at the new Jewish settlers. If they cannot resolve whatever differences they have....they will fight over it, legally, morally, economically, and physically. The only good result is one that ends the fighting....and if that is the expulsion of Palestinians from Gaza, so be it.

Status quo.

Im accustomed to you arguing from another set of principles when it comes to identity politics, which is the absolute essence of the concept of Israel.

Now you seem to be saying youre good with whatever arrangement an identity group can achieve through sheer power.

 

[Chesterton]

Do you actually believe that or are you just saying it to make yourself feel better?

I have no need to make myself feel better. I'm not a Jew, and I'm also not one of those American Protestants who thinks there's something special about Jews or the modern state of Israel. I don't have a dog in the fight, other than I really, really wish people could live together in peace.

 

[Chesterton]

Im accustomed to you arguing from another set of principles when it comes to identity politics, which is the absolute essence of the concept of Israel.

Now you seem to be saying youre good with whatever arrangement an identity group can achieve through sheer power.

I know you've been to Japan. I think you said you like Japan. You must be familiar with how extremely difficult it is to obtain Japanese citizenship if you're not racially Japanese.

 

[BCP1928]

I have no need to make myself feel better. I'm not a Jew, and I'm also not one of those American Protestants who thinks there's something special about Jews or the modern state of Israel. I don't have a dog in the fight, other than I really, really wish people could live together in peace.

Perhaps, but I think that your ideas about how West Bank land has been acquired by the settlers is wildly inaccurate.

 

[durangodawood]

I know you've been to Japan. I think you said you like Japan. You must be familiar with how extremely difficult it is to obtain Japanese citizenship if you're not racially Japanese.

Oh yeah. Japan is notoriously insular and apparently rather racist below the polite surface. I do understand that its changing as the generations move on and global influence is inescapable. I wonder how it would have been for me there as a black man? I havent heard about overt hostility in that regard, but perhaps Id have missed some of the plain friendliness I encountered.

Japan as an island(s) nation is historically and geographically predisposed to an inheritance of ethnic unity. By contrast, the land of Israel seems to have been as multicultural as a place could be over its history.

For sure, as a tourist its fun to visit some places that have a strong singular cultural identity. Its also fun to visit those "tossed salad" kind of places. "Melting pots".... not so much. Usually bland.

 

[Chesterton]

Oh yeah. Japan is notoriously insular and apparently rather racist below the polite surface. I do understand that its changing as the generations move on and global influence is inescapable. I wonder how it would have been for me there as a black man? I havent heard about overt hostility in that regard, but perhaps Id have missed some of the plain friendliness I encountered.

I've seen several YouTube videos where random Japanese folks on the street are asked their opinions about blacks. You can search it if you want. There was the infamous 1995 Okinawa rape incident which did serious harm in the minds of the Japanese.

Japan as an island(s) nation is historically and geographically predisposed to an inheritance of ethnic unity. By contrast, the land of Israel seems to have been as multicultural as a place could be over its history.

After the Canaanites who no longer exist, you had Jews, then Arabs and Jews. Sounds more bi-cultural than multicultural to me.

For sure, as a tourist its fun to visit some places that have a strong singular cultural identity. Its also fun to visit those "tossed salad" kind of places. "Melting pots".... not so much. Usually bland.

Bland? Japan is famous for being weird. There's even a long-running website called japanisweird.com.

I prefer melting pots. Tossed salad kinds of places don't do so well politically. Thomas Sowell wrote about this.