Romans 11:26 - 'all Israel' is the 'fullness of the Gentiles'

[revelation2217]

We have already seen that the 'fullness of the Genties' had come about in fulfillement within the Gospel. These, who were formerly wild branches, had been grafted into the tree of Israel.

Paul writes in Romans 11:25

ου γαρ θελω υμας αγνοειν αδελφοι το μυστηριον τουτο ινα μη ητε παρ εαυτοις φρονιμοι οτι πωρωσις απο μερους τω ισραηλ γεγονεν αχρις ου το πληρωμα των εθνων εισελθη

For I do not want you to be unaware of this Mysterium, brethren, lest you should be wise in your own conceits, that hardness in part has come to Israel during which time the fullness of the Gentiles be entered.​

Then he explains that both Jews and Gentiles comprising 'all Israel' were already prophesied to be saved by the deliverer coming out of Zion. So Paul is including the Gentiles in the prophecy of the New Covenant, just as does Isaiah. The fullness of the Gentiles is all Israel. And all Israel is now of the New Covenant of the Gospel, both to Jew and Gentile.

Paul writes,

και ουτως πας Ισραηλ σωθησεται· καθως γεγραπται· Ηξει εκ Σιων ο ⸀ρυομενος, αποστρεψει ασεβειας απο Ιακωβ. και αυτη αυτοις η παρʼ εμου διαθηκη, οταν αφελωμαι τας αμαρτιας αυτων.

And, thus, all Israel shall be saved according to what is written: Out of Zion shall come the deliverer, who shall remove ungodliness from Jacob. And this is my Covenant with them, when I removed their sins.​

The whole passage may be clearly seen to refer to the Gentiles as part of this Covenant in Isaiah, for Isaiah writes,

So shall they fear the Name of the LORD from the west, and His Glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a Standard against him. And the Deliverer shall come from Zion, and to them that turn from ungodliness in Jacob, says the LORD. As for me, this is my Covenant with them, says the LORD; My Spirit that is on you, and my Words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth, nor out of the mouth of your Seed, nor out of the mouth of your Seed's Seed, say the LORD, from now and for ever. - Isaiah 59:19-21​

And so we see how it comes to pass that all Israel is saved in the Gospel. For the plan all along was to graft in the Gentiles by the Gospel and save the whole of Israel, which includes the Gentiles, and not just the Jews, who were always partial Israel.

 

[BABerean2]

We have already seen that the 'fullness of the Genties' had come about in fulfillement within the Gospel. These, who were formerly wild branches, had been grafted into the tree of Israel.

Paul writes in Romans 11:25

ου γαρ θελω υμας αγνοειν αδελφοι το μυστηριον τουτο ινα μη ητε παρ εαυτοις φρονιμοι οτι πωρωσις απο μερους τω ισραηλ γεγονεν αχρις ου το πληρωμα των εθνων εισελθη

For I do not want you to be unaware of this Mysterium, brethren, lest you should be wise in your own conceits, that hardness in part has come to Israel during which time the fullness of the Gentiles be entered.​

Then he explains that both Jews and Gentiles comprising 'all Israel' were already prophesied to be saved by the deliverer coming out of Zion. So Paul is including the Gentiles in the prophecy of the New Covenant, just as does Isaiah. The fullness of the Gentiles is all Israel. And all Israel is now of the New Covenant of the Gospel, both to Jew and Gentile.

Paul writes,

και ουτως πας Ισραηλ σωθησεται· καθως γεγραπται· Ηξει εκ Σιων ο ⸀ρυομενος, αποστρεψει ασεβειας απο Ιακωβ. και αυτη αυτοις η παρʼ εμου διαθηκη, οταν αφελωμαι τας αμαρτιας αυτων.

And, thus, all/U] Israel shall be saved according to what is written: Out of Zion shall come the deliverer, who shall remove ungodliness from Jacob. And this is my Covenant with them, when I removed their sins.​

The whole passage may be clearly seen to refer to the Gentiles as part of this Covenant in Isaiah, for Isaiah writes,

So shall they fear the Name of the LORD from the west, and His Glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a Standard against him. And the Deliverer shall come from Zion, and to them that turn from ungodliness in Jacob, says the LORD. As for me, this is my Covenant with them, says the LORD; My Spirit that is on you, and my Words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth, nor out of the mouth of your Seed, nor out of the mouth of your Seed's Seed, say the LORD, from now and for ever. - Isaiah 59:19-21​

And so we see how it comes to pass that all Israel is saved in the Gospel. For the plan all along was to graft in the Gentiles by the Gospel and save the whole of Israel, which includes the Gentiles, and not just the Jews, who were always partial Israel.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:



G3779
οὕτω
houtō
hoo'-to
Or, before a vowel, οὕτως houtōs hoo'-toce.
From G3778; in this way (referring to what precedes or follows): - after that, after (in) this manner, as, even (so), for all that, like (-wise), no more, on this fashion (-wise), so (in like manner), thus, what.



Thanks for pointing out that "so" is an adverb of manner instead of "then" which is an adverb of time.

Many Dispensationalists attempt to change "so" to "then", as seen in the quote below.



“5. All Israel will then be saved: “They shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them” (Jer. 31:34). “I will save them … and will cleanse them: so shall they be My people, and I will be their God” (Ezek. 37:23).

This was confirmed by Paul in Romans 11:26, etc.”

from Things That Differ by C. R. Stam, page 35


.

 

[riverrat]

The quote that BB2 is using from Stam's book is on page 51, not page 35.

 

[Codger]

We have already seen that the 'fullness of the Genties' had come about in fulfillement within the Gospel. These, who were formerly wild branches, had been grafted into the tree of Israel.

Paul writes in Romans 11:25

ου γαρ θελω υμας αγνοειν αδελφοι το μυστηριον τουτο ινα μη ητε παρ εαυτοις φρονιμοι οτι πωρωσις απο μερους τω ισραηλ γεγονεν αχρις ου το πληρωμα των εθνων εισελθη

For I do not want you to be unaware of this Mysterium, brethren, lest you should be wise in your own conceits, that hardness in part has come to Israel during which time the fullness of the Gentiles be entered.​

Then he explains that both Jews and Gentiles comprising 'all Israel' were already prophesied to be saved by the deliverer coming out of Zion. So Paul is including the Gentiles in the prophecy of the New Covenant, just as does Isaiah. The fullness of the Gentiles is all Israel. And all Israel is now of the New Covenant of the Gospel, both to Jew and Gentile.

Paul writes,

και ουτως πας Ισραηλ σωθησεται· καθως γεγραπται· Ηξει εκ Σιων ο ⸀ρυομενος, αποστρεψει ασεβειας απο Ιακωβ. και αυτη αυτοις η παρʼ εμου διαθηκη, οταν αφελωμαι τας αμαρτιας αυτων.

And, thus, all/U] Israel shall be saved according to what is written: Out of Zion shall come the deliverer, who shall remove ungodliness from Jacob. And this is my Covenant with them, when I removed their sins.​

The whole passage may be clearly seen to refer to the Gentiles as part of this Covenant in Isaiah, for Isaiah writes,

So shall they fear the Name of the LORD from the west, and His Glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a Standard against him. And the Deliverer shall come from Zion, and to them that turn from ungodliness in Jacob, says the LORD. As for me, this is my Covenant with them, says the LORD; My Spirit that is on you, and my Words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth, nor out of the mouth of your Seed, nor out of the mouth of your Seed's Seed, say the LORD, from now and for ever. - Isaiah 59:19-21​

And so we see how it comes to pass that all Israel is saved in the Gospel. For the plan all along was to graft in the Gentiles by the Gospel and save the whole of Israel, which includes the Gentiles, and not just the Jews, who were always partial Israel.

Reading the writings of Paul is often like listening to one side of a phone conversation. He is often answering questions about situations that are not always included in the text. And so by knowing the answer to the question we have to deduce what the original unstated question was.

The Disciples and Apostles were teaching everywhere that Jesus was the promised Messiah. The Jewish rebuttal to this was "if Jesus was the Messiah then why wasn't all of Israel saved?" The Jewish political Messiah was expected to be another deliverer like Moses who led the Israelites out of captivity. Likewise the Jews expected Messiah would be militant and would deliver Israel from the Romans. This is why Herod the great was believed to be the Messiah as well as Bar Kochba. But they were proved false when Israel was not delivered. Jesus of course did not fit their unrealistic expectations and was rejected by the majority of the first century Jews. THis is why they missed their hour of visitation.

The Jews of Jesus day expected that the coming Messiah would not only deliver them from foreign occupation and control but would elevate them to the leaders of the world with all the power and wealth they could imagine.

But God's priority was different - his essential motivation was to redeem and transform humanity. This was a totally different mentality. Even the Disciples did not catch on to this as they continued in their Jewish fantasy of world domination up to the point of the cross. Even those at the triumphal entry chanted 'Hosanna" which means "Save us." Save us from our sins? No way they were expressing the standard Jewish dream of that day. They were wanting deliverance from foreign oppression, poverty, corruption, ungodliness, and oppressive control of their lives.

I suggest that Paul was answering the Jews rebuttal. To the Jew if Jesus was the true Messiah then He would have (saved) delivered Israel from the oppression of Rome. Paul on the other hand is saying that indeed all of the true Israel was saved. Under God's program all of the people of faith were spiritually saved not literally saved (from Rome). Paul makes it a point to say that a true Israelite is a person of faith like Abraham had - it is not genetic. The Jews were expecting a "literal deliverance" and God provided a "spiritual (eternal) deliverance." Which is a thousand trillion times more important because their is no end to eternity.

Larry

 

[Danoh]

The quote that BB2 is using from Stam's book is on page 51, not page 35.

Well, worst than that is his quoting a few lines out of an entire book, and that within his context over that book's.

This is to be expected.

This entire thread has been that way. Its OP rejected reading that great little book, preferring one passage out which to then turn other passages into the service of his determined view.

BAB2, has continually done the exact same thing - taken one or two passages out of an entire book, and from within his own context.

Whether these people mean well or not, this approach of theirs does not serve their intent - unfortunately, all it does is point to a need for its reproach.

We ought to be seeking to by love serve one another as to solving for these questions by means that make for peace.

Taking another's words out of so huge a scope and context; whether the Lord's, the Apostle Paul's, or that of anyone in some "book about" does not really stand much of a chance of making for that solving for things with peace that we have all been called unto.

Fact is, Paul's scope and context as to this issue had been far and away much, larger than one or two words, let alone a passage or two, two or three chapters, or even one Epistle alone.

But I'll be commenting on what all is really behind all this in a thread I am about to post entitled "Is God Wrong?"

 

[BABerean2]

Some have stated that quotes have been taken "out of context".

Please feel free to access C.R. Stam's book and check to see if quotes were taken "out of context".

It is available online at the link below.

http://www.texasgracechurches.com/STUDY_MATERIAL/StamI13.pdf

................................................................................................


How do we decide if a book is based on scripture?

Every book recommended on this forum is to be judged by how it compares to God's Word.
.....................................................................................................

Excerpts from “Things That Differ” by C.R. Stam



Page 33.

“It should be noted too that both the actual old and new testaments, though
they affect us, were made with the nation Israel, and that the new covenant
simply promises that Israel will one day render spontaneously the obedience
required of her under the old covenant. (Deut. 5:1-3, Jer. 31:31).”

………………………………............................

Page 35 , 36 from the section on Prophecy and the Messianic Kingdom

“4. It will extend to all the earth: "Yea, all kings shall fall down before Him: all
nations shall serve Him" (Psa. 72:11). "And there was given Him dominion, and
glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve Him"
(Dan. 7:14). "Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord
of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the Lord" (Zech. 8:22).

5. All Israel will then be saved: "They shall all know Me, from the least of
them unto the greatest of them" (Jer. 31:34). "I will save them ... and will
cleanse them: so shall they be My people, and I will be their God" (Ezek. 37:23).

This was confirmed by Paul in Romans 11:26, etc.

6. Israel's suffering and sorrow will then be over: "Speak ye comfortably
[comfortingly) to Jerusalem . - . that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity
is pardoned" (Isa. 40:2). "Give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for
mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness" (Isa. 61:3). "They
shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away" (Isa.
35:10).

7. Israel will then become a blessing to all nations:
“And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy
rising" (Isa. 60:3). "And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the
heathen, 0 house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall
be a blessing" (Zech. 8:13). "In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men
shall take hold, out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the
skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that Godis with you" (Zech. 8:23)
.
These promises date back to the covenant which God made with Abraham,:
"I will multiply thy seed ... and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be
blessed" (Gen. 22:17,18).”

………………………………............................................................

Page 128

“Chapter XI
GOOD NEWS
THE "FOUR GOSPELS"

It has often been stated that the so-called Four Gospels are actually four
accounts of our Lord's earthly ministry as recorded by four different writers.
These four accounts are given to us in the Scripture, not as different gospels but
as portrayals of our blessed Lord Himself in four different aspects. Matthew
portrays Him as King, Mark as Servant, Luke as Man and John as God; and
each writer, while acknowledging the other aspects of Christ's person and place,
keeps consistently to the particular aspect which he was inspired to portray.

Some have suggested that one biography; one composite picture, so to
speak, would have been better, but one might as well try to depict a house by
one composite picture. It would seem rather odd to have the mop, the refuse
can, the milk box and the connection for the hose all showing up on the front
porch! And where in the picture would there be room for all the doors and
windows on all four sides? Similarly four separate accounts of our Lord's
ministry were necessary to set forth the four aspects of His person, position and
work.

IS THERE ONLY ONE GOSPEL?
But while it is technically incorrect to call these four records four gospels, it is
equally incorrect to say, as many have said, that the Scriptures present only one
Gospel.”

………………………………..............................................................................

Questions to be considered in reference to Stam’s book.


1. Is the Gospel preached by Paul different from the Gospel preached by Peter on the day of Pentecost or are they the same Gospel directed to a different audience?

2. Is there really more than one Gospel?

3. Will all of the descendants of Jacob be saved during the end-time or only a small remnant?

4. Will the salvation of most of the end-time Jews occur at His Second Coming?

5. Will Israel be a blessing to all of the nations in the future or has it already been done through the sacrifice of Christ?

6. Who is the "seed" through which all nations will be blessed? Gal. 3:16

7. Is the viewpoint of Mid-Acts Dispensationalism portrayed in Stam’s book based on scripture?

.

 

[Notrash]

And what is the manner in which the deliverer came to zion and removed ungodlieness from jacob.... i.e. "all Israel" of the grafted into God by faith/adherence to Christ.

In the context of Is 59, how where the believers being made a prey? Who was preyi.g on them?

Is 61 & 63 have some similar wordings of righteous judgement by his "arm" and deut 32 has strong similarities to this time and the vengeance on thise who provoked his sons/daughters. (Vs 19?)

How did deut 32:42 (nkjv) prophecy that God/Jesus would avenge his son/daughters.

Answer; through the heads of the leaders of the disbelievers enemies...i.e. the romans.

Thus, how (or, in what manner) did "the deliverer" come to zion and remove the ungodly oppression on the righteous/peaceful/freed by faith?

According to Paul in vs 26 and Is 59:5, sins are already removed from this group through the righteousness by the law of faith (rom 3:27-31 & 8:2)

So what "saving" and from being a prey to what 'enemy' mught still be neccessary in 60 AD?



..

 

[Danoh]

Some have stated that quotes have been taken "out of context".

Please feel free to access C.R. Stam's book and check to see if quotes were taken "out of context".

It is available online at the link below.

http://www.texasgracechurches.com/STUDY_MATERIAL/StamI13.pdf

................................................................................................


How do we decide if a book is based on scripture?

Every book recommended on this forum is to be judged by how it compares to God's Word.
.....................................................................................................

Excerpts from “Things That Differ” by C.R. Stam



Page 33.

“It should be noted too that both the actual old and new testaments, though
they affect us, were made with the nation Israel, and that the new covenant
simply promises that Israel will one day render spontaneously the obedience
required of her under the old covenant. (Deut. 5:1-3, Jer. 31:31).”

………………………………............................

Page 35 , 36 from the section on Prophecy and the Messianic Kingdom

“4. It will extend to all the earth: "Yea, all kings shall fall down before Him: all
nations shall serve Him" (Psa. 72:11). "And there was given Him dominion, and
glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve Him"
(Dan. 7:14). "Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord
of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the Lord" (Zech. 8:22).

5. All Israel will then be saved: "They shall all know Me, from the least of
them unto the greatest of them" (Jer. 31:34). "I will save them ... and will
cleanse them: so shall they be My people, and I will be their God" (Ezek. 37:23).

This was confirmed by Paul in Romans 11:26, etc.

6. Israel's suffering and sorrow will then be over: "Speak ye comfortably
[comfortingly) to Jerusalem . - . that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity
is pardoned" (Isa. 40:2). "Give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for
mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness" (Isa. 61:3). "They
shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away" (Isa.
35:10).

7. Israel will then become a blessing to all nations:
“And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy
rising" (Isa. 60:3). "And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the
heathen, 0 house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall
be a blessing" (Zech. 8:13). "In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men
shall take hold, out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the
skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that Godis with you" (Zech. 8:23)
.
These promises date back to the covenant which God made with Abraham,:
"I will multiply thy seed ... and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be
blessed" (Gen. 22:17,18).”

………………………………............................................................

Page 128

“Chapter XI
GOOD NEWS
THE "FOUR GOSPELS"

It has often been stated that the so-called Four Gospels are actually four
accounts of our Lord's earthly ministry as recorded by four different writers.
These four accounts are given to us in the Scripture, not as different gospels but
as portrayals of our blessed Lord Himself in four different aspects. Matthew
portrays Him as King, Mark as Servant, Luke as Man and John as God; and
each writer, while acknowledging the other aspects of Christ's person and place,
keeps consistently to the particular aspect which he was inspired to portray.

Some have suggested that one biography; one composite picture, so to
speak, would have been better, but one might as well try to depict a house by
one composite picture. It would seem rather odd to have the mop, the refuse
can, the milk box and the connection for the hose all showing up on the front
porch! And where in the picture would there be room for all the doors and
windows on all four sides? Similarly four separate accounts of our Lord's
ministry were necessary to set forth the four aspects of His person, position and
work.

IS THERE ONLY ONE GOSPEL?
But while it is technically incorrect to call these four records four gospels, it is
equally incorrect to say, as many have said, that the Scriptures present only one
Gospel.”

………………………………..............................................................................

Questions to be considered in reference to Stam’s book.


1. Is the Gospel preached by Paul different from the Gospel preached by Peter on the day of Pentecost or are they the same Gospel directed to a different audience?

2. Is there really more than one Gospel?

3. Will all of the descendants of Jacob be saved during the end-time or only a small remnant?

4. Will the salvation of most of the end-time Jews occur at His Second Coming?

5. Will Israel be a blessing to all of the nations in the future or has it already been done through the sacrifice of Christ?

6. Who is the "seed" through which all nations will be blessed? Gal. 3:16

7. Is the viewpoint of Mid-Acts Dispensationalism portrayed in Stam’s book based on scripture?

.

8. Will said answers/comparison be based on a few passages taken from that 'book about" by themselves, as so many do with Romans 11, or will they be based on "the context" [actually the scope] that is that entire "book about" [as should be the case with Romans 11, as well]?

 

[random person]

The Fulness of the Gentiles is in regards to the status of the Gentiles under the New Covenant. They are the recipients of the full blessings of Abraham.

Christians are as much as God's chosen people as are Jews that accept Christ are.

Non-believing Jews and Gentiles aren't God's chosen people. Non-believing Jews are counted as Gentiles and Arabs. Children of the Bondwoman. And physical Jerusalem which remains under bondage.

Physical circumcision, the flesh, natural ethnicity no longer determines who God's chosen are anymore. The only substance that determines who God's chosen are, are only those who have accepted Christ as their lord and savior. These are the children of Free Woman. And Jerusalem above (New Jerusalem) mother of all the faithful in Christ.

Christian Zionists and Dispensationalists are mistaken when they place the Jewish people above all other people as God's chosen people still.

 

[Danoh]

The Fulness of the Gentiles is in regards to the status of the Gentiles under the New Covenant. They are the recipients of the full blessings of Abraham.

Christians are as much as God's chosen people as are Jews that accept Christ are.

Non-believing Jews and Gentiles aren't God's chosen people. Non-believing Jews are counted as Gentiles and Arabs. Children of the Bondwoman. And physical Jerusalem which remains under bondage.

Physical circumcision, the flesh, natural ethnicity no longer determines who God's chosen are anymore. The only substance that determines who God's chosen are, are only those who have accepted Christ as their lord and savior. These are the children of Free Woman. And Jerusalem above (New Jerusalem) mother of all the faithful in Christ.

Christian Zionists and Dispensationalists are mistaken when they place the Jewish people above all other people as God's chosen people still.

Lordship salvation was Israel's gospel as it referred to their need to recognize their Lord as Lord per His Covenant with them.

Gentiles were not part of such a Covenant, Romans 1.

And not all Dispensationalists are Zionists other than as to some future 2nd Advent point in time.

And yes, as to this part - "Non-believing Jews are counted as Gentiles" - in any age, or Dispensation.

Get your facts straight, even if you disagree with them.

 

[revelation2217]

And what is the manner in which the deliverer came to zion and removed ungodlieness from jacob.... i.e. "all Israel" of the grafted into God by faith/adherence to Christ.

In the context of Is 59, how where the believers being made a prey? Who was preyi.g on them?

Is 61 & 63 have some similar wordings of righteous judgement by his "arm" and deut 32 has strong similarities to this time and the vengeance on thise who provoked his sons/daughters. (Vs 19?)

How did deut 32:42 (nkjv) prophecy that God/Jesus would avenge his son/daughters.

Answer; through the heads of the leaders of the disbelievers enemies...i.e. the romans.

Thus, how (or, in what manner) did "the deliverer" come to zion and remove the ungodly oppression on the righteous/peaceful/freed by faith?

According to Paul in vs 26 and Is 59:5, sins are already removed from this group through the righteousness by the law of faith (rom 3:27-31 & 8:2)

So what "saving" and from being a prey to what 'enemy' mught still be neccessary in 60 AD?



..

That's a very good question. And for those belonging to the new Covenant prophesied by Isaiah in chapter 59 and described by Paul in Romans 11, there is a very good answer to what saving from an enemy must still be necessary to both Jews and the fullness of the Gentiles in the church and in the new covenant -- absolutely none. They had been saved by the Redeemer who came from Zion. That is how all Israel (both Jew and Gentile in the new covenant) shall be saved. That is Paul's whole point.

 

[Notrash]

That's a very good question. And for those belonging to the new Covenant prophesied by Isaiah in chapter 59 and described by Paul in Romans 11, there is a very good answer to what saving from an enemy must still be necessary to both Jews and the fullness of the Gentiles in the church and in the new covenant -- absolutely none. They had been saved by the Redeemer who came from Zion. That is how all Israel (both Jew and Gentile in the new covenant) shall be saved. That is Paul's whole point.

I actually think he was referring to the yet to come saving by deliverence that was to come rhrough the roman armies who remived the oppressors (through the minds of the leaders or Israeks enemies (the romans) as statwd in Deut 32:42.

This point is supported in chapter 12 -16. 12:19 is another quote from deut 32 and is juat before the encouragement that they were to submit to the higher supernatural powers and not to take veangeance on their enemies by themselves. That "higher powers" in Rom 12 refer (I believe) to the powers and vindicative approval/protection of a loving Gid is supported in Dan 7 where the saints of this time are referred to as the saints of the most high. It's also established in deut 32 that he would extract veangeance and administer his sword becauae of the provoking of his sons/daughters.

Rom 13 in context of romans 12:19 has nothing to do with submitting to human govts as higher powers.

Later in the letter, they are told that Gid would soon trample the adversaries under their feet.

So the "saving" that still needed performed was a saving, open approval, and protection by deliverence thriugh the roman armies from the persecuting judaizers who were their haters and haters of life by being lovers of religiiin. The way of the truths of Christ and his having taken away sin by nailing the garden law of sin/death to the tree was promised to be given supernatural protectiin and vindicatiin in a similar manner that Abraham through Israel experienced as they walked as nomads and hebrews in the earth.

This is/was his promise whe he took away the law of sin/death and established the way of non-militant peace and truths of divinity & love of humanity through the instructiins , truths & example of Christ and ones needed personal adheeance to those principles through recieving his headship as king.

Thanks fir listening.

 

[revelation2217]

For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

 

[Straightshot]

Response to the OP

All "Israel" is not the "fullness" of the Gentiles

The Lord's nation of Israel is separated from the Gentiles of the nations throughout the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation [Isaiah 11]

 

[random person]

Lordship salvation was Israel's gospel as it referred to their need to recognize their Lord as Lord per His Covenant with them.

Gentiles were not part of such a Covenant, Romans 1.

And not all Dispensationalists are Zionists other than as to some future 2nd Advent point in time.

And yes, as to this part - "Non-believing Jews are counted as Gentiles" - in any age, or Dispensation.

Get your facts straight, even if you disagree with them.

You are the one without the facts straight.

For the (Levitical) priesthood being changed (altogether eliminated & dissolved), there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

For there is verily a disannulling (of the Old Covenant) of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law (the Old Covenant) made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope (the New Covenant) did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.


In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old (covenant). Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. (a la Jerusalem A.D. 70)

Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first (the old covenant), that he may establish the second (the new covenant). (a la Jerusalem A.D. 70)

 

[random person]

Furthermore:


Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Not according to the (Old) covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my (Old) covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

But this shall be the (New) covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 

[Notrash]

Furthermore:


Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Not according to the (Old) covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my (Old) covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

But this shall be the (New) covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

And the LAWS of the new covt are NEW and contrast against the mosaic covt (John 1:17)

1 John 3:21-23; john 6:28,29 summarizes the new laws.



..

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

And the LAWS of the new covt are NEW and contrast against the mosaic covt (John 1:17)

1 John 3:21-23; john 6:28,29 summarizes the new laws.

)..

There are a few sects within Christianity (MJs for one} that feel it is a renewal instead of a new covenant.
I have a thread over here if any are interested:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7525782/
Did Christ come to establish a New or Renewed Covenant with Israel?

According to what I have heard from Messianic Jews, they say Christ simply "renewed" the Covenant spoken of in Jeremiah 31/Hebrews 8 instead of making it "new".
What are the views of those here concerning that? Thanks

.

 

[Notrash]

There are a few sects within Christianity (MJs for one} that feel it is a renewal instead of a new covenant.
I have a thread over here if any are interested:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7525782/
Did Christ come to establish a New or Renewed Covenant with Israel?
.

I came across that idea at bible college. The instructor insisted that we considerthat Hebrews & Jeremiah spoke of two 'new' covts.

Sadly, some dispys that I've encountered here even go so far as to say ythat the 'new' civt of Jeremiah isn't established yet.

The contrast of the new covt as said by the word "not like" in Jer 31 is supported in John 1:17 & the description of the characteristics of the new covt in contrast with the mosaic in the letter of Hebrews. That contrast is also declared in the context of the spirit of the book of deut whereas if the law (and its way) had been sufficient to give life, there would have been no need for the prophecy of a new prophet (deut 18; john 5; acts 3:22-24); or the prophecy of the ircumcision of and writing the NEW law of love and life on the heartthrough the words of that new prophet. Deut 30:6-19; Rom 10:5-8.

Nice to see you again LLOJ.

Have you followed the 'discoveries' and opinions of the fulfillments and new understandings of the 1000'(s) years; (4 measurements of 1000 of Ez 47, culminating in 70 AD) Gog & Magog (132-135 AD) and the association of the splitting of the mt olives (Zech 14) with the splitting of the kingdom and judgement for idolatry/adultery (now against the new covt) that was at the end of Solomons reign.(but now 1000 yrs later?)

Some were posted in the preterist section of carm forums.


..

 

[BABerean2]

We cannot understand Romans chapter 11 unless we understand the difference between the physical seed and the spiritual seed.

In John chapter 8, Christ explains the difference.


Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.




The following is an excellent presentation on the true Hebrews of God.



Who are the Hebrews?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mBc89PK9Vk