Rightly dividing the word so everyone at the party gets a piece...even Milton

[BryanW92]

BTW, did anyone get the movie reference in the title?

I didn't catch it, but I do now! LOL.

There is a lesson in Milton though. He was the classic archetypical Christian that we think we should be. He was always last. He was meek beyond comprehension. He was given plenty of opportunities to suffer for his meekness and he accepted them. Or did he? In the end, Milton burned down the company because he is, after all, just a human like all of us.

 

[tremble]

Hi Bryan. First off, thanks for further clarifying your thoughts. I think there will always be a certain amount of feeling that the people we are debating with just don't understand where we are coming from; they don't get it.

It sounds as though you probably feel something like that about my ability to hear you on this point. You are concerned about what would happen if you were to take Jesus at his word. There are bills to pay and your rational mind, your common sense, your practical experience in the real world all tell you that if you stop working for money, then the bills will not be paid, unless you become a beggar living off the charity of others, which isn't really living by faith anyway since it's still depending on someone paying the bills for you.

I'm not sure what I can do to convince you that I understand your position. I've heard it thousands of times and not just on the internet. Nearly the entire world feels the same concern. I've been dealing with these issues since 2000 and I've talked to so many people about it. I understand your concern. Your reasoning? I get it; I really do.

used the word "destitute" because it means something different. It is the lacking of necessary things, which you would be (personally) if you gave all away.

Compare this concern to scriptural evidence;

MT 10:9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,

MT 10:10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
-------------

LK 22:35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
​

This is proof that God can take care of us. I believe there is such a thing as legitimate concern about the future or a need to plan ahead at times. But there are times when that concern creeps over into the area of fear. Anxious worry and fear will stop us from stepping out in faith.

You wouldn't be destitute anymore as you took from the community pot, but what if you took more than you could put in? Who would make up the difference? What if most people did that?

Good question. There will always be "what if's" and problems when it comes to people living together. But those "what if's" should not stop us from stepping out in faith. When that happens, all we've really done is to hide behind a convenient doctrine.

A lot depends on how the community is organized. The purpose of having community funds is so that an individual cannot access those funds without approval from the wider community; it's a safe guard against people abusing the funds by taking more than they should. Sure, people could take what they want without permission, but then that is stealing and every group must deal with such problems at some point.

Are we the kind of Christians who give up trying just because we face difficulties?

My point was that you are technically destitute when you give it all away, and you are living on charity when you draw from the pot.

Whether it is your point, or my point or anyone's point, doesn't matter. The real question is whether our various points are consistent with what Jesus taught. Were Jesus and his followers destitute? Were they beggars depending on the charity of others and therefore not really living by faith but by begging?

Are you willing to say that about them? If not, then why do you say it about my comments when I am advocating that we follow Jesus' example? Can you see how, from my perspective, there is a contradiction in your argument on this? I'm not just trying to "win". There is a genuine discrepancy here.

Can anyone else see it?

I wasn't trying to make an emotional statement by my word choice. I was making a rational statement to counter your naiveté that says that people will behave fairly towards each other when given an opportunity to take from the labors of others

It's true that at times people will treat us unfairly. They will take advantage of our generosity or spitefully use us somehow. That is a fact of life which even Jesus had to deal with. Jesus already warned us that such things will happen and yet he still told us to try it anyway.

We should not let fear of "bad people" stop us from stepping out in faith. We should not be like the foolish person who hid his talent for fear of failure.

I agree with you that we need to strike a much better balance these days, but it will not work until we live in a community of Christians who seek to sacrifice to the community more than they seek to gain from it.

Jesus didn't teach his followers to wait around until some perfect opportunity came along. We can create this scenario you describe right now. You've shown that you understand what it will take to make a Christian community work, so why keep putting it off? Are you saying that you yourself would seek to take more than you give in a communal setting, and that is why you cannot see it working for yourself?

Are you saying that if you saw someone else taking more than they give, that you would not talk to them about it or try to fix the problem? You would just let the community fail because that just how it is in this world?

Modern, secularized America is not that community. Not even close.

Jesus didn't wait on the pharisees to get their act together before he started his ministry. He listened to God and he believed God. He just started acting on those leadings. He didn't need the support of his country, his friens/family, or the religious leaders, because he had personal faith. If every other single person in the world rejected God, Jesus would continue acting on God's leadings.

We need that same kind of willingness.

We have trained our people over the last half century to take, take, take and to only "give" to causes that we care about. Many people are almost feral in their ability to be selfish. They don't just take what they need, or what they want. They take just because it's available.

You are absolutely right. See, this is what confuses me so much about you. You sometimes say things which shows you understand the problem, but then you've got a whole list of reasons for why there is nothing we can do about the problem except to "boldly proclaim" that the problem exists.

What the world needs right now are examples of people doing something about the problem. The world needs examples of people who give without taking. That is the purpose of working for love. We give even if we do not get anything in return.

It's not enough just to see the problem. We are servants. We are called on to witness to the world through our service. That is our job as Christians. And yet, while you point out that taking more than we give is the problem, you will then continue to argue that we must demand payment for our work in order to survive.

We need to have the courage to strongly proclaim the gospel to these people before we start giving them everything we own.

People have been "strongly proclaiming" the name of Jesus for hundreds of years and we are still in this horrible situation. What people have NOT been doing is obeying. We don't need more talk about Jesus. We need servants who are willing to SHOW the kingdom of Heaven.

Over and over again Jesus talked about our need to obey him. He understood all these arguments you are making. He probably heard all of them in one way or another during his ministry. Remember the guys who came to him at night? One wanted to say good bye to his family, the other wanted to bury his father first, and the other didn't understand that he'd need to sleep on the streets at times.

They all had some reasonable sounding excuse, but Jesus wasn't having it. He demanded action. He wouldn't even let the guy say goodbye to his family. Imagine if a religious leader demanded that from followers today. But he wasn't just being "Jesus the jerk". He was trying to impress upon his followers the overriding importance of putting the Kingdom of Heaven first, before our family, before our material possessions, and before our concerns about paying the bills.

We aren't brave enough to call a sin a sin, but we think that we can change their hearts by handing them our checkbooks?

Forsaking material possessions and giving to the poor isn't meant to change the world. It is meant to change US. We need to go through that forsaking process to understand the reasoning behind it. Once we have changed ourselves, then we start using our time to help others. That is when we start changing the world. God wants our time. He doesn't need our material possessions but he still asks us to give them up because it will give us a different perspective. We need to cut our own chains first before we can hope to help others cut their chains.

 

[tremble]

Okay, so that was a really long post and I think most people skip (or very briefly skim) long posts, but I thought it worth responding to so many points because I felt it showed a common theme which I'll condense here with bullet points for those who skipped the long post. ^.^

These are the reasons against communal ownership and working for love which Bryan gave in one post. I'll post them in my own words to show what is really being communicated behind the "reasonable" arguments. Btw, this is nothing personal against Bryan. I would respond this way to anyone making the same points.

1. God will not provide for us if we follow Jesus' example.
2. Sharing is not worth trying because some people will abuse it.
3. It is wrong to accept help from others when you need it.
4. It is naive to believe that others will be fair toward us.
5. Acting on individual faith will not make a difference.

These are the 5 basic themes you will see as you read through Bryan's response. Again, he doesn't use these exact words, but this is what his comments communicate. If anyone is still having trouble seeing it, I will be happy to re-post these points with exact quotes from Bryan to make a clear, side by side comparison.

 

[BryanW92]

Okay, so that was a really long post and I think most people skip (or very briefly skim) long posts, but I thought it worth responding to so many points because I felt it showed a common theme which I'll condense here with bullet points for those who skipped the long post. ^.^

These are the reasons against communal ownership and working for love which Bryan gave in one post. I'll post them in my own words to show what is really being communicated behind the "reasonable" arguments. Btw, this is nothing personal against Bryan. I would respond this way to anyone making the same points.

1. God will not provide for us if we follow Jesus' example.
2. Sharing is not worth trying because some people will abuse it.
3. It is wrong to accept help from others when you need it.
4. It is naive to believe that others will be fair toward us.
5. Acting on individual faith will not make a difference.

These are the 5 basic themes you will see as you read through Bryan's response. Again, he doesn't use these exact words, but this is what his comments communicate. If anyone is still having trouble seeing it, I will be happy to re-post these points with exact quotes from Bryan to make a clear, side by side comparison.

Tremble,

Please tell us how YOU have given away everything and live on God's bounty alone. What does he give to you that someone else does not have to work to provide? What would you have if those people stopped working too?

God does take care of us! He gave us hands and minds and feet. He gave us the ability to live in community with people who need your skills and talents and with other people who have an abundance of things that you need so all of us can interact in an economy of good and services to serve the needs of all who participate.

If God requires that I become a lazy herd animal living on the labors of others, or that I twist his words to make my envy of others' wealth into a virtue, then we really don't need him because people can be lazy and jealous without his help.

 

[BryanW92]

MT 10:9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,

MT 10:10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
-------------

LK 22:35And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.


These are specifically speaking about people going out on a dedicated mission for God, not for the general populace. Context is everything.

 

[tremble]

If God requires that I become a lazy herd animal living on the labors of others, or that I twist his words to make my envy of others' wealth into a virtue, then we really don't need him because people can be lazy and jealous without his help.

This is your response to me suggesting that we follow Jesus' example?

Are you saying this is what Jesus taught and did? Were he and his followers lazy? Were they herd animals living on the labours of others? Was Jesus twisting God's instructions because he was envious of others' wealth?

How did it become a bad thing to do what Jesus and his followers did? This is why I said earlier that something is stopping you from hearing what I am saying. Do you know what that "something" is?

These are specifically speaking about people going out on a dedicated mission for God, not for the general populace. Context is everything.

When Jesus talked to the rich man about forsaking materialism, you said his answer was only for the rich man and not for Christians in general.

Now you say the example of God taking care of Jesus' disciples was only for that one mission, implying that Jesus does not want Christians to live by the same values he taught to his followers.

It starts to sound like I could quote 100 examples and you would have a reason for why each example does not apply to you.

 

[BryanW92]

When Jesus talked to the rich man about forsaking materialism, you said his answer was only for the rich man and not for Christians in general.

Now you say the example of God taking care of Jesus' disciples was only for that one mission, implying that Jesus does not want Christians to live by the same values he taught to his followers.

Note that Jesus tells the rich young ruler to go and SELL all he has and give to the poor. He does not say "give all you have to the poor". This explicitly states that there must be people to sell to in order for him to gain the liquid assets to give away. If the entire world is supposed to give all their possessions away, then who could buy this man's stuff?

The bible tells us that we each have different gifts. Some people are preachers and teachers and prophets who might be called into an itinerant ministry where they will survive on the gifts and charity of others in exchange for the use of their gifts.

But, others are given other gifts. Some may be a shrewd, but fair and honest, businessman who earns significant surplus money and uses that to fund the preachers, teachers, and prophets. Some may dig ore out of the ground to make lamps. Some may own a vineyard that employs workers (noting that Jesus had something to say there about the owner's wealth being used fairly and at his discretion and something else about the envy of some workers with regards to the compensation given to others).

All are working for the kingdom. If we all leave our fields and nets and mines and factories to preach and teach the gospel and to interpret phophecy, then who will be left hear and who will grow the food necessary to sustain all. Jesus did not send out farmers and fishermen (of actual fish), nor did he send out blacksmiths, doctors, or accountants. If we take this "one-size fits all" approach, then we would assume that the only people who serve Christ as those in full-time itinerant ministry and the rest are heathens.

If Jesus tells us all that we are equal and should strive to be last, as he told his disciples, then why does he tell us to submit to rulers and earthly master? Is he condeming those who are appointed above us and hire us to be unchristian since they failed to give away their power and wealth?

 

[BryanW92]

This is why I said earlier that something is stopping you from hearing what I am saying. Do you know what that "something" is?

You make the mistake of thinking that I do not hear or understand you. I fully hear and understand you. I have many Progressive friends who suffer from the same problem that you do.

Again...I HEAR you. I UNDERSTAND you.

I am saying that you are wrong. Your interpretation is wrong because you are not reading in context. You are applying your politics and your own envy and pride to your interpretation and not good, scholarly hermeneutics.

I do not know this for sure, but your posts indicate that you consider yourself to be below the median income and that you are that way because others unfairly have too much and that is taking from you. So, you believe that a massive redistribution of wealth would be a good way for you to gain stuff (using the "Christ is a socialist" concept). You have never given away all that you have because you think that you don't have much to begin with. But, all those "rich people" need to give their stuff away right now to create the social justice that you desire. This is not an ad hominem attack, any more than your implication that I am too dumb to understand your statements was an ad hominem attack.

I've asked for your personal testimony of how you gave away everything several times and you always avoid the question. If you did, please tell us about it and I'll edit that last paragraph out of existence. But if you truly believe that those who have more than you should give everything away while those who have as much or less than you should keep all and take what is given away, then please take the log out of your own eye!

 

[tremble]

Hi Brian (and anyone else looking on),

Well, it's another long post, but I feel some important issues are addressed so I didn't edit it down.

Thanks for explaining what you think my position is. It has helped me to better see where the misunderstanding is.

your posts indicate that you consider yourself to be below the median income and that you are that way because others unfairly have too much and that is taking from you. So, you believe that a massive redistribution of wealth would be a good way for you to gain stuff (using the "Christ is a socialist" concept).

Do you think Jesus and his followers believed that others unfairly had too much and were taking from them? Did Jesus and his followers believe that forsaking all would be a good way for them to gain stuff?

I am not suggesting anything new. I am suggesting that we do what Jesus and his followers did.

I have never said anyone should give to me. I have never said that anyone should give. I have only commented on Jesus' teachings and suggested that if people want to be Jesus' followers, then they should follow him.

That's why I'm always quoting Bible verses to you to show this.

You have never given away all that you have because you think that you don't have much to begin with. But, all those "rich people" need to give their stuff away right now to create the social justice that you desire. This is not an ad hominem attack, any more than your implication that I am too dumb to understand your statements was an ad hominem attack.

Thank you for clarifying that you are not trying to attack me. I think I understand that. You are not a bad person. I believe you likely have many good traits which I would appreciate in you if we were friends outside of this forum. This is why I said that I believe there is still something stopping you from seeing the simplicity of what I'm saying. It's not personal, but it is spiritual.

My comments are also not political. It's just an honest attempt to look at what Jesus said, and do it. If the people, rich or poor, want to hold on to their stuff, that's fine. It doesn't bother me. But, if they claim to be a Christian while clinging to their stuff, then it does bother me because it sets the wrong example for others in the world looking on.

But if you truly believe that those who have more than you should give everything away while those who have as much or less than you should keep all and take what is given away, then please take the log out of your own eye!

I believe this is another example of misunderstanding. Jesus' teachings were not only for the rich. Jesus' teachings are the values of the Kingdom of Heaven. They are there for everyone who would be his follower. If a homeless man wanted to join the church and all he had to forsake was a single dollar bill or a small pocket radio then he'd be asked to forsake ownership of that property over to the communal purse.

The standard would be the same for the rich person or the middle class person. We all become brothers and sisters in the kingdom of Heaven living at the same level and there is no respect of persons based on the amount they forsake. None of us owns anything privately. We use communal resources.

Can you see how I am not talking about redistribution of wealth? If the rich want to hold on to their stuff, let them. They do not owe me anything and I demand nothing from them. God owns everything. He can organize wealth in any way he wants.

The real purpose of selling all, or forsaking all or letting go of everything is to help us get a better spiritual perspective. Whether rich or poor or anywhere in between, the person who refuses to let go will miss the lesson. He will remain blind to the kingdom of Heaven. His feeling of job security will be a very poor substitute to what the kingdom of Heaven offers, but he doesn't even realize it.

I believe this is why you are having so much trouble understanding the teachings I am promoting. You do not see it. You are forced to rely on my description because you will not try it for yourself and see for yourself.

Note that Jesus tells the rich young ruler to go and SELL all he has and give to the poor. He does not say "give all you have to the poor". This explicitly states that there must be people to sell to in order for him to gain the liquid assets to give away. If the entire world is supposed to give all their possessions away, then who could buy this man's stuff?

The love of money is the root of all evil. It will always look for ways to hide itself under the surface. In another place Jesus talks about forsaking all, with no mention of selling. This makes for a much broader context. They are not contradicting verses, but rather make up a bigger picture of someone who's doing whatever he can to challenge materialism. If we really have no way to sell our stuff, then that should not become the excuse which greed hides behind.

Whether it is sold or given away or burned, the point is to let go of our materialism. We can't defeat the root of all evil with good intentions by claiming that we've forsaken the stuff, "in our heart". God knows better. He knows that the heart is deceitful. That's why he made it a command. We can't hide behind fancy religious speech or good intentions. We must show our faith in Jesus by acting on his teachings.

The bible tells us that we each have different gifts. Some people are preachers and teachers and prophets who might be called into an itinerant ministry where they will survive on the gifts and charity of others in exchange for the use of their gifts.

Disregard for Jesus' teachings is not a gift. None of us is above the master. Jesus lived the way I am describing here and he told his followers to follow his example.

businessman who earns significant surplus money and uses that to fund the preachers, teachers, and prophets.

What you've described here is an interpretation which conveniently leaves the door open for Christians to disregard Jesus' teachings based on their own good intentions.

Jesus never told his followers to work for mammon (money and the things money can buy) so that they can pay other Christians to do the work of Heaven for them. He told all his followers to start working for love and that God will support them.

All are working for the kingdom.

It's very convenient isn't it? Everyone is working for the kingdom in their own little way. That could be true, but in the context you are using (i.e. people working for money) you've created a convenient situation where anyone could claim to be working for God just because they claim it. Jesus' standards no longer make any difference because hey, we're all working in our own little way.

If Jesus tells us all that we are equal and should strive to be last, as he told his disciples, then why does he tell us to submit to rulers and earthly master?

Stop for stop signs. Obey traffic rules. Don't litter. Don't steal. Give your kids education. These are all good rules which we should follow.

But, the government is still just a body of people who are capable of making mistakes. We should not follow their mistakes. If the government promotes the idea that we will die if we do not serve mammon (money and the things money can buy) then we should not follow them.

God gives us life, not money.

 

[BryanW92]

You are forced to rely on my description because you will not try it for yourself and see for yourself.

I've asked you several times: tell us your story of how you have given away all that you have, with no earthly means of getting more, so that you could trust God to provide your next meal.

I have lived communally with five other people, sharing everything.

I have lived with only a bag of clothing as my sole possessions with communal meals and a barracks room to live in.

I understand that you want people to live a lifestyle that you don't actually claim to have lived yourself. You always dance around the question and attack my intelligence and understanding instead of telling us how you have done this already and how God is taking care of you. I understand scripture. I have studied it. Now, let's hear a story of God at work in your life as you gave up all wealth and possessions and security.

 

[thesunisout]

.

Tremble, let's get it out in the open: You're part of a cult called the "Jesus Christians", and your single-minded focus in practically everything you say here is to sway people towards your groups ideology. It's obvious you have an agenda and it colors all of your activity here. Your group also has no respect for this forum; your members are constantly changing your names and evading bans. It's a sad commentary on what you say is a superior form of Christianity that you cannot even be open and honest about who you are and what you are doing on this forum.

1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1 John 1:6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

 

[tremble]

Hi Bryan,

If you want to post your personal testimony, that's fine. For me, I'd prefer to keep the focus on the principles and values of Heaven as Jesus taught it rather than make it an issue of what some individuals have or have not done.

All that matters is the individual's relationship to Jesus. Yes, I want people to to follow the teachings of Jesus, but if they do not, I will not judge them. There's no reason or need for me to judge them. It would be pointless. Neither I nor the kingdom of Heaven would gain anything from it except to alienate people.

If people "feel" judged because I talk about how Jesus had standards and requirements for his followers, that is between them and God. I purposely avoid asking anyone to give their personal testimony, to make it very clear that I am not interested in judging anyone. I don't know what you do or do not do and I don't need to know those specifics.

What I want is for people to see for themselves the reasons behind the standards Jesus gave. They are not my teachings; I am only promoting what is already there.

This is why I do not want to talk about myself. If the teachings of Jesus themselves are not enough to inspire someone then no amount of testimony on my part will either, since it is those teachings which my testimony will be based on anyway.

In the past I have privately shared my testimony with people I felt had even some small amount of genuine interest. I do not see that from you. This is not me attacking you, but explaining my perspective. You are quite openly against applying these teachings, not only for yourself, but you also make a case for why "Christianity in general" is free to disregard at least some of these teachings. I'm fine to provide a list of quotes to show this, if you feel I am being overly harsh with you.

I understand that you want people to live a lifestyle that you don't actually claim to have lived yourself.

You are correct that I have not claimed anything, because there is no need for me to claim anything. If you want to follow Jesus it will not matter what I claim or do not claim. We all have faith as individuals.

I think the reason you keep insisting that I talk about myself is because you know that you cannot win against the teachings of Jesus, but against me, an imperfect person, yes you can win very easily.

You always dance around the question and attack my intelligence and understanding

I don't think I attacked you, but if you post evidence clearly showing that I have, then I will apologize for it. Please do understand that I personally see a difference between "attacking" and pointing out discrepancies or contradictions in your arguments.

 

[tremble]

Hi sunisout,

Let's keep the focus on Jesus and not individuals, okay?

 

[BryanW92]

You are correct that I have not claimed anything, because there is no need for me to claim anything. If you want to follow Jesus it will not matter what I claim or do not claim. We all have faith as individuals.

I think the reason you keep insisting that I talk about myself is because you know that you cannot win against the teachings of Jesus, but against me, an imperfect person, yes you can win very easily.

But, do you live the way you want us to live? I ask because I think that you take an ideal from scripture and try to present it as the only way to live. You claim that we must be totally committed to the point of living without any earthly security. This is the same unhealthy attitude that causes Christain Scientists to let their children die because they won't use vaccinations or take blood transfusions.

I say that it is impossible to live in this world without earthly security. The suffering created by having 7 billion people suddenly stop working out of self-interest and self-preservation would be unimaginable.

I'm not arguing against the ideal found in scripture. I agree with it completely. I believe that people should give up greed to pursue that ideal. I also believe that they should live in a state of enlightened self-interest where they "reduce their footprint" by being as economically self-sufficient as possible without working even one second extra to create unnecessary wealth for themselves, or to find ways to take from others.

So, I ask for your story because I want to hear how it worked for you. Or I want to hear that you are merely pursuing an ideal, just as I am, and are just a little further down the road towards it than I am right now. Either way, it would be edifying for all.

 

[BryanW92]

Tremble, let's get it out in the open: You're part of a cult called the "Jesus Christians", and your single-minded focus in practically everything you say here is to sway people towards your groups ideology. It's obvious you have an agenda and it colors all of your activity here. Your group also has no respect for this forum; your members are constantly changing your names and evading bans. It's a sad commentary on what you say is a superior form of Christianity that you cannot even be open and honest about who you are and what you are doing on this forum.

That explains a lot. I didn't know that there was an actual group. I just thought that this was the natural tendecy of the internet to attract extremists who can claim anything behind the facade of a screen name.

Last year, we had a lot of people who claimed that you must be totally sinless before you can be saved. Now, we have the "you must give away all and stop working for money to be saved" person.

Its sad that they turn the beauty of Christ into a mess of rules and laws that can't be followed by anyone.

Update: I just had an enlightening visit to the truthbelievers web site. The "240 commands" page explained a lot about these people's fractured theology.

 

[tremble]

But, do you live the way you want us to live?

*I* don't want anything from you. These are Jesus' teachings. Remember, it's not about me? I'm only copy-catting what I see from Jesus.

I think that you take an ideal from scripture and try to present it as the only way to live.

No, following Jesus' teachings on materialism is not the only way to live. If you don't like his teachings on materialism, you don't have to follow them. You have that freedom, for now.

This is the same unhealthy attitude that causes Christain Scientists to let their children die because they won't use vaccinations or take blood transfusions.

Ohhh I see. Now, if people want to follow Jesus' example and teachings, they must let their kids die? This is called fear mongering. Let's just hope, for your sake, that it's not working. It's be a shame if you had to take responsibility for turning people away from child like faith in Jesus just because of your problems with his teachings on materialism.

I say that it is impossible to live in this world without earthly security.

We have no king but Caeser, eh?

The suffering created by having 7 billion people suddenly stop working out of self-interest and self-preservation would be unimaginable.

No one said people should stop working. Only that they should stop working for materialism. If 7 billion people started working for each other just because they wanted to help one another...wow, that would be so awesome. You can't see that? Really? I mean I get it that we've had trouble coming to agreement but you really, really, really don't see that people working to help one another just because they want to as a good thing?

I have to admit, I'm a bit flabbergasted, bryan.

I'm not arguing against the ideal found in scripture. I agree with it completely.

That's what you say now...

I believe that people should give up greed to pursue that ideal. I also believe that they should live in a state of enlightened self-interest where they "reduce their footprint" by being as economically self-sufficient as possible without working even one second extra to create unnecessary wealth for themselves, or to find ways to take from others.

It all sounds so good until we get to that teensy little clause, "unnecessary" and the whole thing is spoiled.

Even working for basics like food and clothing is still not working for love. Yes, we need those things, but God already accounted for that. Jesus mentioned it, too. But he still told us not to allow our motivations for why we work to be material objects, no matter how necessary or unnecessary we may view it.

Here, read it from Jesus himself;

MT 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

MT 6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

MT 6:26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

MT 6:27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?

MT 6:28 And why take ye thought for clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:

MT 6:29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

MT 6:30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

MT 6:31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

MT 6:32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

MT 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

MT 6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

 

[thesunisout]

That explains a lot. I didn't know that there was an actual group. I just thought that this was the natural tendecy of the internet to attract extremists who can claim anything behind the facade of a screen name.

Last year, we had a lot of people who claimed that you must be totally sinless before you can be saved. Now, we have the "you must give away all and stop working for money to be saved" person.

Its sad that they turn the beauty of Christ into a mess of rules and laws that can't be followed by anyone.

Update: I just had an enlightening visit to the truthbelievers web site. The "240 commands" page explained a lot about these people's fractured theology.

There was a mob of them here for awhile, then later on we had some ex members of the group come and share their story. Every so often one or two of them show up and try to convert people here to their group, like our friend here. To me, it's interesting that they claim to be following Jesus when they are really following the leaders of their cult and doing whatever they tell them to do.

 

[thesunisout]

Hi sunisout,

Let's keep the focus on Jesus and not individuals, okay?

Do you deny you're a member of the Jesus Christians? You cannot both hide in the shadows and represent the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[tremble]

The original topic of the thread was about how to take in a large variety of information from the Bible, some of which may even appear contradictory at first, and look for a way in which they all work together consistently.

Issues relating to poverty and materialism was only one example in the study, which bryan, in particular, wanted to chat about. However, there are many other examples that can be discussed, too. It doesn’t always have to be about money. ^.^

For example, Christians will often talk about how we are not supposed to judge one another. There are verses which seem to see Christians judging one another as a bad thing

But then there are other verses which show judgement as a good thing. We are meant to exhort and correct one another. We cannot do that without exercising some kind of judgement.

I believe the answer to these two apparently contradictory ideals is that there is more than one kind of judgement. When it comes to deciding who is saved or not saved, that is a judgement which belongs only to God.

But if it's a matter of correcting someone on gossip or name calling or fear mongering, then that's okay as long as it can be done fairly, because it's a correction on specific temporary actions and not a judgement for all eternity.

Jesus said that we will be judged with the same measure that we judged others. This means that when we do judge, we should be very careful about how we do it. If we judge unfairly, then it's likely that God will also judge us unfairly.