Rightly dividing the word so everyone at the party gets a piece...even Milton

tremble

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I read this on the inner net yesterday and feel it's got some useful tips on Bible study.

Three and a half years ago, I wrote an article (“Learning to Study”) based on the passage of scripture from which I have taken the title for this article. (2 Timothy 2:15 ) At that time I was emphasizing that the word “study” had more to do with analysing any given situation, and our need to separate truth from deception in those situations. I pointed out that the Bible as such did not yet exist at that time, and that “books” (scrolls?) of any sort were rare and largely inaccessible; so it wasn’t really the Bible that Paul was encouraging Timothy to “study".

However, in this article I would like to return to the more traditional interpretation, which is that the passage is talking about studying the Bible. I will attempt to relate it particularly to a more recent article (“The Most Dangerous Verse in the Bible”) which was written almost two years ago. In that article I talked about a promise that Jesus made, that we can ask anything we like in his name, and we will get it. (Mark 11:24 “What things soever you desire when you pray, believe that you receive them and you shall have them.”)

What I have been thinking about with regard to studying the Bible is that there is a risk in taking everything and anything in the Bible literally… at the same time, that we hardly give ourselves a chance to discover any of the great mysteries of our faith if we are NOT prepared to at least take certain parts of the Bible literally. How can we reconcile these two positions?

I will try to explain, using the passage above (Mark 11:24 ) as an example.

The verse simply says that what you want, you get... as long as you believe exactly that, i.e. that you will get it. I feel it is a “dangerous” promise because, as it appears there, it simply is not true (not in my experience nor in the experience of just about anyone I know). I have talked to many people who asked for something from God as a child, and did not receive it, and who thus became disillusioned with God. And I know many adults who have lost their faith in God when they asked for someone to be healed, and they died instead, or when they asked for some other favour and it did not come to pass.

I still believe that Mark 11:24 is not literally true as it is written. But this is where we need to match up similar passages in the Bible, in order to get a fuller picture. Most of the other passages include a condition, which is that our request needs to be according to God’s will, or that it must be asked of God on behalf of his Son (i.e. “in Jesus' name”). James, the brother of Jesus, was even more clear, when he said, “You ask for things and you do not get them, because you ask amiss…” (James 4:3 ) There are right things to ask for, and wrong things to ask for.

A strict fundamentalist may argue that the presence of such conditions in other promises should not be automatically applied in this passage, since each passage can be interpreted literally as it is written, WITHOUT recourse to some other verse. This is the basis of the widespread practice of “prooftexting”, where one verse is used to cancel out another one. But the truth is that almost everything that is written in the Bible comes with certain valid assumptions (even though the assumptions may not be spelled out.) For example, rarely ever does a passage in the Bible define exactly who “we” or “you” are when giving an instruction. Jesus told his disciples, at one time, to go into the city and they would find a donkey. No one I have ever known seriously thinks that this is an instruction to all Christians. Common sense assumes that from the context.

But on another occasion Jesus told his disciples to go into all the world and preach the gospel. (Mark 16:15 ) We just naturally assume that such an instruction at least applies corporately to followers of Christ today, if not to every single individual follower of Christ. He does not say, “This is an instruction for you and for everyone who will come after you", yet we know that what is left out is still implied. Thus we are drawing out the full truth of that passage, without letting a literal distortion get in the way of that truth.

Similarly, when the apostles use the words “we” or “you" in the various epistles, the assumption is that they are writing to people who are already committed to following Christ, and not to unbelievers. Example: “These things are written that you may know that you have eternal life.” Is he saying that to people who have rejected Christ? I don’t think so. So once again, we make assumptions regarding stuff that does NOT appear in the passage, and those assumptions are necessary to make sense of what is written.

It follows that the same must be true of the promises about God answering prayers: certain assumptions need to be made. Clumping them together (including James 4:3 ) tells us that we probably need to give a lot more thought as to how we pray, and what we pray for. We need to stay open to the possibility that what we are asking for is not part of God's plan for our lives, in which case, we should not WANT him to grant such a request. That even includes a lot of bad things that happen in the world. God has things that he wants to teach us and others, and he can use trials and tribulations to achieve that.

We should pray for deliverance from evil (as stated in the Lord’s Prayer), but we should also ask for “his will to be done”. Both prayers must temper the other. That is the fuller picture, and we must look at the fuller picture in order to discover the full implications of any passage of scripture.

Another good verse to express this concept of rightly dividing the word of truth is I Peter 2:2… “As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that you may grow thereby.”

Drawing out this “sincere milk” is not a case of twisting verses to fit our theology; but rather, it is a humble and sincere attempt to get the fullest possible picture, with help from the Holy Spirit in doing so… even when the results do not conform with our previous understanding nor with what is easiest for us personally.

I have hesitated to share this revelation, because I know how frequently I have seen people cancelling out one verse with another, in an obvious attempt to win an argument for a particular doctrine, rather than trying to understand the “whole counsel of God”. But that should not stop us from using this principle in a humble and sincere way ourselves.

I’ll give another example of how this drawing out of the fuller truth works.

In Matthew 5 , where Jesus begins his Sermon on the Mount, he says, “Blessed are the poor in spirit…” In Luke 6 , however, slabs of that same sermon are also recorded, but this time, Jesus is recorded as having said, “Blessed are the poor…”

By far, the most popular of the two is the one that says “poor in spirit”, which has been distorted by some Bible commentators, to mean, “Blessed are the humble…” or “Blessed are those who are spiritually poor…”. This latter interpretation is really a most horrid distortion, given that God definitely does NOT want us to be spiritually poor. SPIRITUALLY he wants us to be rich… and it just may be that becoming MATERIALLY poor is a significant step toward becoming spiritually rich… something most believers do not want to hear. The distortion in modern translations is an obvious attempt to escape the uncomfortable truth of what the passage is saying.

This most popular application of Matthew 5 never wants you to see Luke 6 , lest you give serious consideration to the possibility that Jesus literally wants us to learn what it is like to be poor, by BECOMING poor.

While my own emphasis has leaned more toward the Luke 6 version, which says that God wants us to be materially poor (and there are a lot of other passages in the New Testament, e.g. Jame 2:5-7, to support that), we should not eliminate Matthew 5 either, where it’s the attitude which is most important. So when I put the two of them together, I discover that there are some people who are materially poor, who are still far from being poor in SPIRIT. They still want to be rich, and have not learned how to be content with their poverty. In fact, such poor people are some of the most miserable people in the world. They are not satisfied with their lot, and they are always wanting to be rich. Unlike those who eventually become rich, these people are not prepared to make the personal sacrifices that others have made to become rich, and so they have the worst of both worlds.

If a person is really developing an attitude of living simply (i.e. being poor in spirit, as taught in Matthew 5 ) it is likely to make them quite literally poor at times (as taught in Luke 6 ); but it’s also possible for a person to be literally poor, but still not have a poor spirit. And so both passages help us to get two halves of the same truth into touch with the other. The fuller picture is more accurate than either on their own.

I have found so many other “problem texts” in the Bible much easier to understand when I have not tried to cancel them out in some fundamentalist way. (Another good example might be Luke 14:33 as contrasted with I Corinthians 13:3.) It means there are an awful lot of passages in the Bible that I must admit I do not understand. But little by little more and more of them are making sense in a less literal way, as I line them up with other passages that seem at first to be literally pointing in a somewhat different direction.

I do believe that sincerity has for many years played a part in helping us to understand and accept the teachings of Jesus in a way that so many of our “religious” friends cannot even comprehend. But I also feel that we must guard against falling back on our literal understanding of what Jesus taught, to the point of missing other bits and pieces of truth in the Bible as well.

There is much more that could be said on this topic, but hopefully I have said enough that it will inspire some of you to apply this approach in your own Bible studies, where you find parts of the Bible which do not seem to conform with your understanding of other parts of the Bible.
 

BryanW92

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BryanW92

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Sure, we could do that, but what do you think about the study I posted?

You are saying essentially the same thing as Hamilton. He words it differently, saying that there are "timeless truths", "truths for other times and/or people", and "things that are factual, but not a scriptural truth to base any kind of doctrine on".

I did notice that you have a single-minded focus on people becoming voluntarily poor to gain spirituality. This is apparent in this post and many others. Did you give up a significant amount of wealth to discover this timeless truth?
 
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tremble

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You are saying essentially the same thing as Hamilton. He words it differently, saying that there are "timeless truths", "truths for other times and/or people", and "things that are factual, but not a scriptural truth to base any kind of doctrine on".

I did notice that you have a single-minded focus on people becoming voluntarily poor to gain spirituality. This is apparent in this post and many others. Did you give up a significant amount of wealth to discover this timeless truth?

Hi Bryan. voluntary poverty isn't "my focus". Its something Jesus taught and did. I'm just commenting on it. but thank you for noticing. If I'm ever accused of being a christian I hope you will be at my trial so you can let them know about my persistence. ^_^
 
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BryanW92

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Hi Bryan. voluntary poverty isn't "my focus". Its something Jesus taught and did. I'm just commenting on it. but thank you for noticing. If I'm ever accused of being a christian I hope you will be at my trial so you can let them know about my persistence. ^_^

I'll be glad to testify for you!

But your posts do point to this as a major point in your theology, if not the major point around which everything else is orbiting. I can understand an affection for the poor because there is a serious greed problem in this country.

But I do not think that redistribution of wealth in a direct handout would be nearly as effective in solving the plight of the poor as a change in mindset with regards to the cost of labor by employers.

We currently look at the cost of labor as an expense on a company's bottom line. I think that the money paid to employees is as much a part of the total corporate profit as that paid to shareholders. After all, generating wealth is the function of a business, right? Well, wealth that is generated and passed on to the workers should count as well as profit in determining the health and value of a company.

Just giving away all of your wealth, as you did, may work on a personal level to focus your spirituality, but it really does not serve the greater good (unless you gave away billions!).

Capitalism works as long as it partners with morality to do more than serve the shareholders or to make grand gestures (as many millionaires and billionaires do) that serve the giver's ego more than the people he claims to want to help.
 
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jbearnolimits

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Tremble, I must say that what you have here explains very well how to rightly divide the word.

2 Peter 1:20
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

I have always held to this view because it tells me that you can not isolate one set of scripture from any other. Just as you said about how Jesus said ask what you will and you will have it and yet in another place it gives conditions.

When the conditions are set it doesn't void what Jesus said...it just makes it even more clear. Actually this reminds me of another thread here that I spoke in where I was told that using scriptures from different chapters in a book of the Bible and putting them together is wrong.

However I believe that all scripture is connected and we have to take it as a whole. What was written in the books of the Old Testament connects to the new. We see Jesus Himself quote from different sources as well.

So I want to encourage you to continue in this way of study. We must take the WHOLE counsel of God.
 
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tremble

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Hi jbear,

Thanks for that encouraging post. I didn't write the study, though I'm a fan of the author as I find that most of his stuff is pretty good.

It's a good exercise in humility when we can accept that other people may have pieces of the puzzle which could change the significance of our own piece.
 
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tremble

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But I do not think that redistribution of wealth in a direct handout would be nearly as effective in solving the plight of the poor as a change in mindset

Changing mindsets is what Jesus' teachings are all about, including his teachings about materialism. That's the point of Jesus saying that we cannot work for God and mammon (money and the things money can buy) without cheating on one or the other, and that our new job is to work to build God's kingdom of love.

He wants us to work, but to work for a new motivation. A motivation where we do not help people just because we want something from them, but because they need our help.

Just giving away all of your wealth, as you did, may work on a personal level to focus your spirituality, but it really does not serve the greater good (unless you gave away billions!).

Everyone sharing with one another will not serve the greater good? That's not consistent with what Jesus said. Jesus' teachings are the cornerstone. They are the measure by which we judge all other issues.

Our own hearts are deceitful. We just naturally lean toward selfishness. We worry. We fear. We cannot rely on our own personal judgement as to what's best for the world. This is why we listen to God. He knows what's best for the world in a way that we do not.

This is why he sent Jesus to teach us. And Jesus taught that his followers need to let go of materialism and start working for love. He knows what is best for the world and he knows what a struggle it will be for us to accept such strange ways, but he asks us to trust him. This is what I am promoting.
 
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BryanW92

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Everyone sharing with one another will not serve the greater good? That's not consistent with what Jesus said.

Jesus did not teach that we should give away all possessions and live as beggars (because who would we beg from?). He told one guy to sell all and give it away, but he didn't say "stop earning money". Also, he was saying that in response to the man's attitude that he had already done everything needed to have salvation. Jesus said that being poor is good, but never said that being destitude and dependent is the only way to live.
 
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tremble

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Hi Bryan. As you've said early, this topic is something I am quite active with. The two of us have had this same discussion several times over now. And it always goes the same way.

In your efforts to refute my points, I used to wonder if you were somehow mocking me or being snide when you say things like, "who will we beg from if we all become beggars". To me, this sounds like a misrepresentation of the issues and I used to think you were doing it deliberately. From the way you describe it, one gets the impression of people in filthy rags who go around sleeping all day, eating from the garbage, peeing on themselves, not showering, begging for coins on the side of the street etc... Even though you didn't use those exact words, that is the impression you seem to have about what I'm saying. That's why you made a distinction between being poor and being destitute, suggesting that there is a good poor and a bad poor and hinting that what *I* am talking about is destitution, the bad kind of poor.

Is that the kind of living by faith you think I am promoting? Is that really the impression you get after reading about the example of the disciples and Jesus himself, who are the ones who inspired me to promote these teachings in the first place? I have ever said that we should follow their example and yet, for some reason, you don't hear it that way. You seem to hear something very different; a bad kind of poor that wants you to pee on yourself instead of live by faith.

I think I am finally starting to see more clearly now (maybe). You don't have anything against me, even when you appear to be saying snide things (like the beggar/ destitution thing). I'm sorry for taking your comments personally and at times responding in my own snide way. You are not my enemy and I genuinely want you to hear what I am saying.
 
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tremble

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Its really not all about us, its about Jesus.
What we do with what he calls us, is our response to Him.
Our fellowship with each other is not a compitition of wills or revelation.
If we see it that way our focus is off the althogether lovely One.

Excellent point Nora, which is why I think it's so important to look carefully at what Jesus said and did as our guidelines for how to live life.

Relating it back to the study and to the point Bryan was making about voluntary poverty, there is a consistent theme throughout the new testament regarding materialism and money. It's not just a few isolated verses here and there.

For example, people sometimes bring up, "If you don't work, you don't eat" as evidence that Paul was teaching that we have a responsibility to work for money. They see the word "work" and they automatically associate it with "for money".

But when taking looking at the surrounding context we see there are other verses which do not contradict this teaching, but rather clarify it. Yes, we definitely must work, but Paul was not talking about money.

He was writing to a communal living church which was heavily involved in working with it's neighbours. It's easy to think of a community of Christians working for love as a kind of "utopia" where people come to hang out, relax eat the food, play the games etc...

But that is not the example the early church gave us. They worked hard. But what do you say when some people refuse to work. Instead they take advantage of the circumstances to be lazy. If anyone challenges them on it they can complain that this is a christian community and ask, "where's the love"? To protect against this kind of abuse, Paul instituted a rule. If they don't want to work (in the church) then they should not eat (in the church).

There are many teachings like this, where there appear to be contradicting verses, but they are not contradictions. It's a matter of allowing supporting evidence to help change our perspective on the matter.
 
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Interesting discussion. I just wanted to comment that I too noticed you seemed to misrepresent Tremble's words a bit, Bryan. He was advocating poverty using the model of Jesus and the Apostles, whereas you changed it to a poverty of "destitution" and "begging". I don't think this exaggeration did justice to Tremble's comments.

I would ask you to question why you felt a need to adjust what Tremble was saying with regard to poverty. After that, you may want to try addressing his post again as written - not the amplified version you presented in your post.

Best of luck.
 
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BryanW92

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Hi Bryan. As you've said early, this topic is something I am quite active with. The two of us have had this same discussion several times over now. And it always goes the same way.

In your efforts to refute my points, I used to wonder if you were somehow mocking me or being snide when you say things like, "who will we beg from if we all become beggars". To me, this sounds like a misrepresentation of the issues and I used to think you were doing it deliberately. From the way you describe it, one gets the impression of people in filthy rags who go around sleeping all day, eating from the garbage, peeing on themselves, not showering, begging for coins on the side of the street etc... Even though you didn't use those exact words, that is the impression you seem to have about what I'm saying. That's why you made a distinction between being poor and being destitute, suggesting that there is a good poor and a bad poor and hinting that what *I* am talking about is destitution, the bad kind of poor.

Is that the kind of living by faith you think I am promoting? Is that really the impression you get after reading about the example of the disciples and Jesus himself, who are the ones who inspired me to promote these teachings in the first place? I have ever said that we should follow their example and yet, for some reason, you don't hear it that way. You seem to hear something very different; a bad kind of poor that wants you to pee on yourself instead of live by faith.

I think I am finally starting to see more clearly now (maybe). You don't have anything against me, even when you appear to be saying snide things (like the beggar/ destitution thing). I'm sorry for taking your comments personally and at times responding in my own snide way. You are not my enemy and I genuinely want you to hear what I am saying.

I was born poor to a single mother (who thankfully married my dad when I was a baby and they stayed married until today). We never had much since he only had a HS education and she didn't get her diploma until much later. Poor is the state of not having much, but working hard to gain more so your family can live better than it did yesterday. That is "good poor".

But you advocate giving it all away and living on the charity of others, whether that be by direct charity or by redistribution of all wealth into a big pot where all can draw from it as they feel the "need".

As a child, my "needs" would have certainly outweighed whatever my parents could put in. Add my brother and sister to that "need" and you can see that the solution is not very practical.

I used the word "destitute" because it means something different. It is the lacking of necessary things, which you would be (personally) if you gave all away. My parents always found a way to provide the necessary things, but little more until I was a teenager. You wouldn't be destitute anymore as you took from the community pot, but what if you took more than you could put in? Who would make up the difference? What if most people did that? My point was that you are technically destitute when you give it all away, and you are living on charity when you draw from the pot.

I wasn't trying to make an emotional statement by my word choice. I was making a rational statement to counter your naiveté that says that people will behave fairly towards each other when given an opportunity to take from the labors of others.

The Mayflower Colony almost died that first winter because of their Compact that made all goods the property of the community. Contrary to the popular Thanksgiving story, they survived the next winter because they created a system of private property, with a strong call to charity. That is the proper balance between the Christian Ideal and the Human Condition.

I agree with you that we need to strike a much better balance these days, but it will not work until we live in a community of Christians who seek to sacrifice to the community more than they seek to gain from it. Modern, secularized America is not that community. Not even close. We have trained our people over the last half century to take, take, take and to only "give" to causes that we care about. Many people are almost feral in their ability to be selfish. They don't just take what they need, or what they want. They take just because it's available.

We need to have the courage to strongly proclaim the gospel to these people before we start giving them everything we own. We aren't brave enough to call a sin a sin, but we think that we can change their hearts by handing them our checkbooks? If that was true, 50 years of a growing welfare state would have created a nation of the kindest, most giving people in the history of the world. Instead, we have created a nation of self-entitled monsters who will kill over a pair of shoes or a car that they're only going to drive for an hour and then leave it on the side of the road.
 
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BryanW92

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I would ask you to question why you felt a need to adjust what Tremble was saying with regard to poverty.

Because words mean things. When you give away ALL and stop working to earn more, you are technically destitute. Look it up.
 
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