Resurrection

[Berean777]

My apologies.

Now what you are saying is true in that the chief priest would also need to see him.

Now since the chief priest will not receive a resurrection body and he cannot be brought to life in our earthly time based realm, how exactly is he going to see the Lord's coming. Remembering in your previous post you do not believe in incarnation and that I agree with you totally. Therefore there isn't really an option since the Lord comes in our time and space earthly realm, the chief priest doesn't have an awareness of time and space without a body to witnesses what is in the earthly realm.

 

[Berean777]

Your reply will be greatly appreciated, Thankyou kindly.

 

[Goodbook]

his body will be resurrected, but it won't be a glorified body like ours.

See Acts 24:15
Daniel 12:2

At the judgement day, the wicked will be judged and punished. They have to face the Lord. I'm not sure the ins and outs but you can read for yourself in scripture. They will not getting away with their wickedness! That is why these, after judgement, they will perish in hell. But they not going there without being judged by the righteous. As we have a testimony of Jesus. Think on it, all the wicked who lived on earth and all their sin that hurt you and me. They never got that washed by the blood of the lamb or realised the depth of their sin. Will not justice be served and innocent blood be avenged at the end? It will, scripture says so.

 

[Berean777]

his body will be resurrected, but it won't be a glorified body like ours.

See Acts 24:15
Daniel 12:2

At the judgement day, the wicked will be judged and punished. They have to face the Lord. I'm not sure the ins and outs but you can read for yourself in scripture. They will not getting away with their wickedness! That is why these, after judgement, they will perish in hell. But they not going there without being judged by the righteous. As we have a testimony of Jesus. Think on it, all the wicked who lived on earth and all their sin that hurt you and me. They never got that washed by the blood of the lamb or realised the depth of their sin. Will not justice be served and innocent blood be avenged at the end? It will, scripture says so.

Have you read Rev 14. When I read it, it gives a chronology that points to when the time of the reaping of the great harvest of God is and it talks about the separation of the wheat and the weeds/TARES.

Read the chapter completely and think about who the 144,000 are and why are they called the first fruits. The first fruits of what? You will also discover that there are two groups spoken of in Rev of John who sing the son of Moses and those that sing the song of the lamb.

I don't want to spoil it for you, but I do recommend reading rev 14 entirely and reflecting on questions and come back and share your questions with me and others and we will work together to unfold the riddle that is at play in scripture that has resulted historically with so many interpretations.

Look forward to sharing with you, thank you kindly.

 

[Goodbook]

The second death...read the final two chapters in Revelation.

 

[Goodbook]

Yes I've read all of revelation ...I don't see anything bout wheat in that chapter but yes Jesus talks about the tares and the wheat.

 

[Goodbook]

The wheat is gathered into the barn but the tares are taken out and burned. Angels will be doing both tasks. Those that will be burned will definitely know why they being burned.

 

[Berean777]

Yes I've read all of revelation ...I don't see anything bout wheat in that chapter but yes Jesus talks about the tares and the wheat.

I beg to differ on that point. Look closer:

Revelation 14:14-20
And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

The Lord's ascension when he ascended up on high to sit on the right hand of power as the almighty judge.

Three angel messages come immediately after the 144,000 ho are the first fruits of the harvest are reaped.

And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

This chronological outcry by the angel calls for an urgent reaping from the great harvest of God.


And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

The Lord starts to reap from his harvest.

And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

This second angel is the one who casts the weed/TARES into God's furnace.

And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire;

But before this second angel starts to throw the TARES in the fire, he asks the Lord to reap from his harvest.

and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

These are the Good grapes that have become fully ripe and are reaped by the risen Lord to be his wine to his wedding supper.

And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

This is the second angel who then gathers the TARES and throws them in the wine press of the wrath of God.

And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.


So you can see a parallel between the above versus and the following versus in:

Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.'"

 

[Berean777]

Notice the second group are the rotten grapes that are thrown into the fire by the angel who had power over fire.

 

[Berean777]

Look closer you see in Rev 14 the 144,000 who are the first fruits of the harvest are reaped and sing the song of Moses that no man can sing before the everlasting gospel goes out to the gentile nations of the world. So are these 144,000? I believe that rev 7 explains who they are.

 

[PaladinValer]

Well. The caps thing. i suppose i do wonder about that so when ppl write Church is it different from when they write church?

It would be very helpful, and proper netiquette (internet etiquette), for your posts to use proper punctuation as well.

Catholic=either the ecclesiastical body under the jurisdiction of the Pope of Rome or the sense of holding the universal doctrines of the Counciliar Church (in other words, the doctrines of the Christian religion and formalized from its inception through the Seventh Ecumenical Council).

catholic=universal.

Church=either a body which claims to hold Catholic doctrine and thereby constituting the visible Church or the concept of the Church as a whole in which all Christians are membered into by their baptisms.

church=an ecclesiastical body of Christians under some form of organization or polity. Many Catholics also use the term to describe an ecclesiastical body which has Apostolic Succession. Otherwise, it is a synonym to the word "denomination".

As for myself when i write He and Him I mean God. But I suppose you cant tell if Im just speaking it

Unless the words "He" and "Him" are the first words in a sentence, in which case they are always capitalized and the context must be sought by reading the rest of the material provided.

Thanks for the responses everyone I was worried for a moment I had got something completely wrong. I think the creed is a good thing to say, together. But also each christian ought to know what they believe and be able to have an answer ready. I suppose we can follow Stephens and Peters example in the bible when they were asked under pressure just what was it they believed.

In Christianity, the theology of the Nicene Creed is what defines who is a Christian and who is not. This website, following this historically-verified practice, does the same. All the Nicene Creed did is formalize it in a dogmatic statement; the theology is hardly new: we find its earliest incarnations in the early second century ce outside of Holy Scripture (thereby proving Trinitarian interpretation of certain Biblical passages is older than the Creed and part of the continuous, historical, and traditional doctrine of the Christian religion) and the word "Trinity" was used shortly after that.

All of this is vital for all Christians to know so to be knowledgeable about the religion which they claim adherence to, so as to explain the faith, promote the faith, defend the faith, and to grow in the faith. Without it, we are missing a fundamental aspect of the Christian religion, without which we have no baseline to guard against false doctrine, schism, heresy, and apostasy, not to mention it makes us look bad when non-Christians note that many Christians aren't even knowledgeable of the very religion we claim to adhere to, thereby giving them more fuel to fire the idea that Christians are uneducated or stupid.

I strongly encourage everyone to learn the history of our Christian religion. It was vital for the earliest apologists to prove the ancientness of their beliefs and we should do likewise.

 

[ViaCrucis]

My apologies.

Now what you are saying is true in that the chief priest would also need to see him.

Now since the chief priest will not receive a resurrection body and he cannot be brought to life in our earthly time based realm, how exactly is he going to see the Lord's coming. Remembering in your previous post you do not believe in incarnation and that I agree with you totally. Therefore there isn't really an option since the Lord comes in our time and space earthly realm, the chief priest doesn't have an awareness of time and space without a body to witnesses what is in the earthly realm.

I don't understand your use of the word "incarnation" here.

Also Scripture speaks of both a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. A restoration of bodily life will be universal, but for the righteous it will be for eternal life, life in the age to come, a transformation of the body as St. Paul says, "it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in honor", "it is sown perishable, it is raised imperishable", etc. But the unrighteous will also be restored to bodily life in the resurrection.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Goodbook]

I don't understand your use of the word "incarnation" here.

Also Scripture speaks of both a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. A restoration of bodily life will be universal, but for the righteous it will be for eternal life, life in the age to come, a transformation of the body as St. Paul says, "it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in honor", "it is sown perishable, it is raised imperishable", etc. But the unrighteous will also be restored to bodily life in the resurrection.

-CryptoLutheran

Thats what I thought too. Restored, then judged to perish in hell.
Im not sure what point berean777 is trying to make, I dont see anything out of the ordinary from what they posted, although they added more after I replied.
The 144000 are the remnant, believing israel. Im not certain if its just that amount who be alive at the very very end or if that means for all time. I think, from reading scripture it means the former, but could be wrong. They are the ones sealed by God, and not hurt in the plagues etc.

I am not here to argue.

 

[Berean777]

Thats what I thought too. Restored, then judged to perish in hell.
Im not sure what point berean777 is trying to make, I dont see anything out of the ordinary from what they posted, although they added more after I replied.
The 144000 are the remnant, believing israel. Im not certain if its just that amount who be alive at the very very end or if that means for all time. I think, from reading scripture it means the former, but could be wrong. They are the ones sealed by God, and not hurt in the plagues etc.

I am not here to argue.

Hello friend glad that your back on board. Initially I believe that you stated in your original post that you do not believe that the dead will be incarnated and I must say I agree with here. So the question is if the wicked are not raised in the incorruptible body then they must be naked souls without a resurrection garment. Therefore the question that begs is how they will see the Lord and especially how the chief priest would have seen the Lord.

 

[Berean777]

When a person dies the person is either clothed by Christ with the resurrection garments or they are naked disembodied souls. Jesus warned people to hold onto their garments least they go of naked.
If a departed person comes PHYSICALLY back in the original corruptible form other than the resurrection form then this is reincarnation.
The Bible doesn't teach about the wicked being reincarnated. It only states that blessed are those who enter the wedding supper of the lamb through the first resurrection.
There is no physical resurrection of the wicked it has no purpose after everyone has died. In Revelation the resurrection of the wicked after the land and sea have given up their dead is metaphorically saying that the DESTINY of the wicked is destruction in the lake of fire, nothing more and nothing less.

 

[PaladinValer]

When a person dies the person is either clothed by Christ with the resurrection garments or they are naked disembodied souls. Jesus warned people to hold onto their garments least they go of naked.
If a departed person comes PHYSICALLY back in the original corruptible form other than the resurrection form then this is reincarnation.
The Bible doesn't teach about the wicked being reincarnated. It only states that blessed are those who enter the wedding supper of the lamb through the first resurrection.
There is no physical resurrection of the wicked it has no purpose after everyone has died. In Revelation the resurrection of the wicked after the land and sea have given up their dead is metaphorically saying that the DESTINY of the wicked is destruction in the lake of fire, nothing more and nothing less.

Reincarnation is actually defined as the return of the soul into an entirely different body and being born and living a brand new life.

Furthermore, Christianity has always taught the resurrection of all the departed, not just the righteous. The idea of only the righteous being resurrection is very recent and is not a part of truly historic Christianity.

 

[Berean777]

Reincarnation is actually defined as the return of the soul into an entirely different body and being born and living a brand new life.

Furthermore, Christianity has always taught the resurrection of all the departed, not just the righteous. The idea of only the righteous being resurrection is very recent and is not a part of truly historic Christianity.

No not necessarily. Any life or seed that dies and comes back in the original form or other is being reincarnated in one form or another. It is called respawning of the same person in the same time and space continuum albeit in the same or other form.

Jesus makes it clear that those that enter in through the resurrection are in his Father's house in heaven. So they are migrating to another place a permanent dwelling.

In the above case any soul coming back to earth in the same or other form is reincarnation

 

[ViaCrucis]

When a person dies the person is either clothed by Christ with the resurrection garments or they are naked disembodied souls. Jesus warned people to hold onto their garments least they go of naked

Uh. No. Christians look forward to the resurrection of the body--this body--to be restored to bodily life and transformed in the power and grace of God. The body, says St. Paul, is sown in dishonor, perishable, mortal, but the body is raised in honor, imperishable, immortal. The body does not rise until the coming of Christ on the last day.

If a departed person comes PHYSICALLY back in the original corruptible form other than the resurrection form then this is reincarnation.

Only if one radically redefines reincarnation to mean something it has never meant. Reincarnation does not describe the restoration of bodily life, but refers to a multiplicity of lives, such as the Greek concept of the transmigration of souls (metempsychosis) or the views maintained in the Dharmic religions, involving birth and rebirth: samsara.

Otherwise you would be saying that Jesus was reincarnated when He, after three days in the tomb, was raised up. Jesus wasn't reincarnated after three days, He was resurrected. Big difference. Jesus was restored to bodily life, the same body that had been nailed to a cross and laid dead in the grave was not just again walking and talking and feeling and being, it was transformed, made new: That's what we as Christians look forward to.

The Bible doesn't teach about the wicked being reincarnated. It only states that blessed are those who enter the wedding supper of the lamb through the first resurrection

You're right, nothing in Scripture about reincarnation. However Scripture very clearly states that the wicked are, indeed, resurrected: Daniel 12:2, Acts 24:15

There is no physical resurrection of the wicked it has no purpose after everyone has died. In Revelation the resurrection of the wicked after the land and sea have given up their dead is metaphorically saying that the DESTINY of the wicked is destruction in the lake of fire, nothing more and nothing less.

Scripture apart from the Apocalypse is quite clear that both the righteous and the wicked are raised up. The righteous to incorruptible glory, the wicked to death and anguish.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Berean777]

Uh. No. Christians look forward to the resurrection of the body--this body--to be restored to bodily life and transformed in the power and grace of God. The body, says St. Paul, is sown in dishonor, perishable, mortal, but the body is raised in honor, imperishable, immortal. The body does not rise until the coming of Christ on the last day.



Only if one radically redefines reincarnation to mean something it has never meant. Reincarnation does not describe the restoration of bodily life, but refers to a multiplicity of lives, such as the Greek concept of the transmigration of souls (metempsychosis) or the views maintained in the Dharmic religions, involving birth and rebirth: samsara.

Otherwise you would be saying that Jesus was reincarnated when He, after three days in the tomb, was raised up. Jesus wasn't reincarnated after three days, He was resurrected. Big difference. Jesus was restored to bodily life, the same body that had been nailed to a cross and laid dead in the grave was not just again walking and talking and feeling and being, it was transformed, made new: That's what we as Christians look forward to.



You're right, nothing in Scripture about reincarnation. However Scripture very clearly states that the wicked are, indeed, resurrected: Daniel 12:2, Acts 24:15



Scripture apart from the Apocalypse is quite clear that both the righteous and the wicked are raised up. The righteous to incorruptible glory, the wicked to death and anguish.

-CryptoLutheran

Resurrected not in a physical sense. If you note they are raised after the seventh trumpet is sounded by Christ Jesus, whereby the Lord declares time no longer. At this point the land and the sea will give up its dead because everyone in their earthly bodies have died and either entered in through the first resurrection or have been destined for destruction in the lake of fire.

So just to confirm this, the wicked being resurrected is not a physical raising up in a bodily sense, but rather is a metaphor for being destined to destruction.

They will be raised to destruction whereas those that entered through the first resurrection are raised as the many ANGELS in heaven, who symbolise the white cloud that dwells with Christ Jesus, the everlasting LIGHT.

LET THERE BE LIGHT

 

[Berean777]

There is no physical raising of the wicked after the seventh trumpet call. As I stated before if the wicked get raised in their earthly bodies within the same earthly realm, then this is reincarnation theology.

Any soul raised back to the same place where it came from is reincarnation. A seed that dies in the soil if it comes back and becomes a seed again then it is respawning and therefore it is reincarnation.