Religious Left?

Strivax

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... It's just that, to me, Jesus seemed very insistent on rich people not getting in to heaven. It's one of the few things that all the gospels are consistent on. He didn't ask the rich young man to give to charity or tithe, he just said to stop being rich and give all his wealth up in order to be saved.

Jesus did not mean anything like that... God won't be checking anyone's bank account on the Day of Judgment. He will be exposing the motives of each person's heart (1 Corinthians 4:5).

Can't help thinking that Jesus meant precisely what He said, and then emphasised by repeating; Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.* And, come the end of times, when God weighs and balances all factors, I do not see bank account surpluses as being irrelevant in our age of simultaneously existing widespread deprivation and obscene wealth.

As for motives; well, we tend to judge ourselves by these. And we tend to judge others by consequences. It would be better for us, and the world, if we swapped those two tendencies around.

Best wishes, Strivax.

*Matthew 19:23-4 KJV
 
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ScottA

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So, according to you, the left have the concept of war "backwards". How so?

I'm pretty sure that most lefties don't condone "lifting a hand against a brother", although a Christian - regardless of political persuasion - might be inclined to do so; seeing as Jesus pretty much encouraged it (Luke 14:26)
;-)

It's possibly true that lefties might be more tolerant than others towards their enemies. But that is easy for Christian lefties, because Jesus tells us that if we want to be children of our Father in heaven, we must love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. (Matthew 5:44-45)

So I'm pretty sure that it's the left who have this particular concept correct, and it's you who have it backwards.
What you have just described, is indeed backwards. Yes, we are to pray for our enemies, but not to yield the ways of evil, nor take up their ways. The left is a compromising church, neither hot nor cold. Revelation 3:15 The right does not compromise.
 
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rturner76

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The Apostles and their followers didn't condone Communist living but COMMUNAL living. No matter what type of government is in place like for example a Kingdom. The king owns everything the local lords have land and the pesants are allowed to live there if they work for the Lord. Communism, Capitalism or whatever. In all those systems, a group of people can get together on a piece of land or in a building and share resources. People bring in food, some clean the place, some, do the cooking, some search for household items, but everybody has their littlr or big job in the community. People got together in these communities in the 60's all the time. Sometimes it was based on a religion like the Christians and some were based on a band or a philosophy. I think that is what they were talking about in the Bible

The left is about power and control using charity as one of their trojan horses to convince people to support them by financing their irresponsibility,they support abortion to enable peoples immorality and sexual license,they will tell you that you cannot legislate morality but you can certainly legislate as well as finance immorality,they will tell you its none of your business how other people live but it is your responsibility to bankroll it.

I had to quote this because people with this kind of attitude can be truly offensive. My mother was married to a military man and had 5 children with him. After the 5th child he became abusive. He would beat my mother for no reason at all, just for his pleasure. One day, he came home after a long day and with an evil look in his eye and literally tried to kill my mother. She broke loose from his grip on her throat scooped up her baby and ran with her kids in her night gown as her husband chased her all the way to the MP booth. That was the last they would see of him in Germany where he was stationed. They arranged for her to get a ticket to her home state where she went to her mother's small home where she was not welcome because she had "broken up a happy home." What did she do? SHE GOT ON WELFARE Got a voucher for deposit on an apartment, got some hand me down furniture and started her life over from scratch. Welfare saved my mom's life. So did food stamps (you had to buy them back then). So when I see people belittle and put down welfare recipients in general as irresponsible and immoral I think about my poor mother running for her life and wonder where she would have gone without the welfare system. Fast forward 9 years, she's working in a department store office after welfare paid for a typing class. 8 years later, she's the proud owner of a duplex, a homeowner and landlord. Not only does welfare keep women and children from sleeping in alleyways, if you use the job coaching and training, you will come out the other side paying taxes for the next 30+years like my mom.
 
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Tull

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I think that is what they were talking about in the Bible
People who wish to live that way are free to do so
I had to quote this because people with this kind of attitude can be truly offensive.
Likewise I find anecdotal evidence offered as the rule instead of the exception to be a poor argument,your mother used the welfare system for what it was supposed to be used,millions do not and we are importing more everyday and the system will eventually collapse.
 
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Tull

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I do not see bank account surpluses as being irrelevant in our age of simultaneously existing widespread deprivation and obscene wealth.

I'm sure you know that "rich" is a relative term and a man with a dollar is "rich" compared to a man with nothing"rich" is also an attitude that one can develop if he or she has no more than a decent job they think they wont lose or health they think wont fail,if they think they don't need God then their wealth has them instead of them having it,you seem to have this fixation with other people's money and what they are doing with it.....did you know there are other sins that will send people to hell as well ? did you know that you will only give an account for what you do with what you have ?
 
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rturner76

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People who wish to live that way are free to do so

Likewise I find anecdotal evidence offered as the rule instead of the exception to be a poor argument,your mother used the welfare system for what it was supposed to be used,millions do not and we are importing more everyday and the system will eventually collapse.

I was unaware that the personal stories of millions of welfare recipients were available for public viewing.
 
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JackRT

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The Apostles and their followers didn't condone Communist living but COMMUNAL living. No matter what type of government is in place like for example a Kingdom. The king owns everything the local lords have land and the pesants are allowed to live there if they work for the Lord. Communism, Capitalism or whatever. In all those systems, a group of people can get together on a piece of land or in a building and share resources. People bring in food, some clean the place, some, do the cooking, some search for household items, but everybody has their littlr or big job in the community. People got together in these communities in the 60's all the time. Sometimes it was based on a religion like the Christians and some were based on a band or a philosophy. I think that is what they were talking about in the Bible

I had to quote this because people with this kind of attitude can be truly offensive. My mother was married to a military man and had 5 children with him. After the 5th child he became abusive. He would beat my mother for no reason at all, just for his pleasure. One day, he came home after a long day and with an evil look in his eye and literally tried to kill my mother. She broke loose from his grip on her throat scooped up her baby and ran with her kids in her night gown as her husband chased her all the way to the MP booth. That was the last they would see of him in Germany where he was stationed. They arranged for her to get a ticket to her home state where she went to her mother's small home where she was not welcome because she had "broken up a happy home." What did she do? SHE GOT ON WELFARE Got a voucher for deposit on an apartment, got some hand me down furniture and started her life over from scratch. Welfare saved my mom's life. So did food stamps (you had to buy them back then). So when I see people belittle and put down welfare recipients in general as irresponsible and immoral I think about my poor mother running for her life and wonder where she would have gone without the welfare system. Fast forward 9 years, she's working in a department store office after welfare paid for a typing class. 8 years later, she's the proud owner of a duplex, a homeowner and landlord. Not only does welfare keep women and children from sleeping in alleyways, if you use the job coaching and training, you will come out the other side paying taxes for the next 30+years like my mom.

Why myths about poor endure

by Judith McCormack in the Toronto Star

Our perceptions of poor people are full of stubborn myths. The man who picks up his welfare cheque in a white Cadillac, the teenage mother with a flock of illegitimate children, the loafer who works the system instead of a job – these are the stuff of urban legends. The reality of poverty is surprisingly different. To begin with, the proportion of single parents on welfare who are under 20 years old is very small – 3 per cent, according to a National Council on Welfare study. And nearly half of all single parent families on welfare have only one child, with another 31 per cent having only two children. That couch potato with a weak work ethic? Another myth. The grim truth is that more than half of all poor people are working. And even bleaker – almost one-third of people on welfare are children. When the proportion of poor people with disabilities is added to this mix, the picture looks quite different. There is a notable absence of white Cadillacs among the poor as well. Welfare incomes typically hover at around half the poverty line, not nearly enough money for adequate food or housing, let alone a car. Perhaps the most persistent of these fallacies is the idea of widespread welfare fraud. In fact, the evidence suggests that the rate of welfare fraud is quite low.

As professors Janet Mosher and Joe Hermer found in a report to the Law Commission of Canada, the number of welfare fraud convictions in Ontario in 2001-02 was roughly equivalent to 0.1 per cent of the combined social assistance caseload. Even more telling is that these convictions represented only 1 per cent of the allegations about welfare offences. And there were a large number of allegations – 38,452 welfare fraud investigations were conducted that year. The end tally? Ninety-nine per cent of them did not result in convictions. In other words, a great deal of time and energy is spent looking for welfare fraud, but there doesn't seem to be much to find.

So why are these myths so resilient, despite the evidence to the contrary? One reason has to do with underlying economic fears in society at large. For many people, concerns about financial insecurity and ending up poor are never far from the surface. These fears can be handled by assigning certain traits to the poor that make them different from the rest of society. If we think of the poor as lazy and dishonest, then it seems less likely that poverty will happen to us, the hard-working, the responsible. But these stereotypes are not merely the result of personal fears. They serve a number of other purposes as well. Blaming the poor for their own plight makes it possible to avoid a more searching examination of the social and economic factors that contribute to poverty.

For example, unemployment is an important determinant of poverty. But the unemployment rate is closely linked to broader economic policy decisions. Increasing interest rates, for instance, usually results in fewer jobs and higher unemployment. This means that finding a job is like a game of musical chairs for the poor. No matter how motivated an individual person may be, there will always be too few chairs to go around. Similarly, a low minimum wage, or a lack of affordable housing are public policy choices that have a direct effect on poverty. Stigmatizing the poor allows politicians and policy-makers to ignore responsibility for those decisions.

The myths about poverty often serve other political purposes as well. Defining the poor as lazy or irresponsible creates popular villains for the rest of us to condemn. It panders to a human weakness to feel superior to someone, and provides a handy target for complaints about tax dollars. The same is true when those stereotypes are dressed up in the jargon of "welfare dependency," argued as the reason why poor children sometimes end up as poor adults. The real problem is that poor children have severely limited resources, which often translates into less education and fewer opportunities as they get older. They may indeed end up losing that game of musical chairs, but not because of a particular mindset.

The truth is that, like the rest of us, poor people engage in a wide range of moral conduct and possess a broad array of personal traits and psychological outlooks. And the way to address a complex problem like economic inequality is from a variety of different angles. Rather than scapegoating the poor, there are a series of practical steps that would have a significant impact on poverty. Several of these steps have been canvassed in these pages – a higher minimum wage, affordable housing, universal child care, a guaranteed income, and accessible education. These measures go to some of the most fundamental principles of civil society: ensuring human dignity and a fair shake for everyone, regardless of income.
 
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Tull

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I was unaware that the personal stories of millions of welfare recipients were available for public viewing.

Do some research and find out how long people are on not just welfare but all types of public assistance,google multigenerational welfare,wher did I say that I am completely against helping people ? that's right I didnt say it but I have learned that will some people any dissent or alternate viewpoint on this subject is met with a torrent of baseless assumptions
 
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Tull

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These measures go to some of the most fundamental principles of civil society: ensuring human dignity and a fair shake for everyone, regardless of income.

No such society has ever existed where you tell people that regardless of your choices or how you live your life it will all be good,America is exporting jobs and importing people and all the emotionally driven rhetoric will not defeat simple math,when more are taking than are contributing the system will collapse.
 
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Paidiske

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You do realise that increased population leads to increased employment, as those newly arrived need goods and services? It's not a zero-sum game. I hear this cry that "the system will collapse" whenever changing it to better support the vulnerable is suggested, and yet we can look at countries where the vulnerable are much better supported and see quite a sustainable system. So clearly it is possible!
 
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Tull

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You do realise that increased population leads to increased employment, as those newly arrived need goods and services?
So all countries with huge populations like India should have very little poverty I guess
I hear this cry that "the system will collapse" whenever changing it to better support the vulnerable is suggested
What is not suggested is a corresponding increase in jobs and industry to pay for it,instead we are sending jobs and industry overseas
and yet we can look at countries where the vulnerable are much better supported and see quite a sustainable system. So clearly it is possible!
You mean like European countries and others who have alot of the jobs we used to have and we are still footing the bill as we have for decades for their defense via NATO and other treaties.....being the worlds policeman has cost us trillions.....wealth is not created by good intentions but by work and industry.
 
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rturner76

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Do some research and find out how long people are on not just welfare but all types of public assistance,google multigenerational welfare,wher did I say that I am completely against helping people ? that's right I didnt say it but I have learned that will some people any dissent or alternate viewpoint on this subject is met with a torrent of baseless assumptions

I don't recall assigning anyone a stance on weather we should as a society provide welfare, I did however challenge the notion that any one person knows the moral character or circumstances of any one person that is a welfare recipient let alone millions.
 
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SolomonVII

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The religious right is a dominant force in politics, but are they correct? Jesus argued some very left wing positions, some could even be considered communist.

"And all who believed were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need." (Acts 2:44-45)
"From each according to their ability, to each according to their need" (Karl Marx, Critique of the Gotha Program)

Any thoughts?
To the extent that conservatives are advocates of family values, they are communist too, in the sense that Jesus was a communist.

"For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother."

Jesus redefined the family away from the strictly tribal and genetic definitions of the family of his time, and toward a family of believers.

It was not the whole of the roman empire that shared all things in common. It was the brothers and sisters of Christ who shared all things in common. The sharing was done on the basis of intimate relationships.
This is very unlike the communism of the Soviets and the gulags, or the Maoists of Red China, who did everything to encourage the destruction of intimate bonds of family in order that all become dependent on and beholden to the central state.

Conservative values are very much in keeping with Jesus radicalism. The focus of the sharing is in private organizations, and the church in particular, as the individual sees fit to share with his brothers and sisters. Conservative values are based upon building the character of the individual in order that he or she sees themselves as the benefactors of the larger community that they belong to.
Of course, pay your taxes too. If it has Nero's head on it, or Washington's or QEII, give to Rome what belongs to Rome.
But the 'communism' entailed sharing on the familial level, and not on the level of empire.
Empires are abstracts after all, but the bonds of family are real and personal and as tangible as the bread and the wine that we break and imbibe in together.
 
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greenguzzi

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What you have just described, is indeed backwards. Yes, we are to pray for our enemies, but not to yield the ways of evil, nor take up their ways. The left is a compromising church, neither hot nor cold. Revelation 3:15 The right does not compromise.
Neither the left or the right are "Church" in any way or form, they are points on a political spectrum. Any church that identifies with either left or right has ceased being a church.

Personally, I identify politically as an anarchist. My anarchism is informed by my faith, but I'd never put it alongside - or ahead of - my faith.
 
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greenguzzi

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And where is this virtue to come from, if the state makes all moral decisions on behalf of the citizen, and treats them like infants?
The virtue comes from us virtuous souls lobbying our representatives to counter those unvirtuous entities who are also lobbying our representatives.
You talk about the "state" as if it's an independent force. The state is the corporate "us". It is our Christian duty to at least attempt to influence it.
 
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greenguzzi

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Can't help thinking that Jesus meant precisely what He said, and then emphasised by repeating; Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.* And, come the end of times, when God weighs and balances all factors, I do not see bank account surpluses as being irrelevant in our age of simultaneously existing widespread deprivation and obscene wealth.
Well, seeing as you demonstrably have access to the Internet, then you are in the top 60% of wealthy people on the planet. Judging by your apparent level of education I'd say your relative wealth is much higher than that. So we should both be a bit worried about that needle!
 
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greenguzzi

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No such society has ever existed where you tell people that regardless of your choices or how you live your life it will all be good,America is exporting jobs and importing people and all the emotionally driven rhetoric will not defeat simple math,when more are taking than are contributing the system will collapse.
No society has ever existed where people are told that their choices have no consequence.

Exporting jobs is a bad idea, unless it isn't. (Promoting third world growth etc..)

Importing young people is always a good idea. Importing older people isn't always a good idea economically, but it's almost always a good idea anyway.

The maths isn't as simple as you think: You need to learn modern monitory theory.
 
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Strivax

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The virtue comes from us virtuous souls lobbying our representatives to counter those unvirtuous entities who are also lobbying our representatives.
You talk about the "state" as if it's an independent force. The state is the corporate "us". It is our Christian duty to at least attempt to influence it.

Can't argue with any of that, only that it is undesirable for the state, any state, to claim it is more virtuous than it's component citizens, and then legislate patronisingly 'in their best interests'. This has been a repeated tactic of undemocratic states, both of the extreme left and the extreme right wing, and has lead to some of the worst of world atrocities, and for that reason deserves our extreme suspicion.

Best wishes, Strivax.
 
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Strivax

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Well, seeing as you demonstrably have access to the Internet, then you are in the top 60% of wealthy people on the planet. Judging by your apparent level of education I'd say your relative wealth is much higher than that. So we should both be a bit worried about that needle!

As it happens, I live quite happily and contentedly on somewhat less than anybody might have, if all the world's wealth were divided equally amongst all the world's people. If that kind of arithmetic renders me comparatively rich, (and it does), then that is an indictment of the world order, and the distribution of the world's economic goodies, not of me. I do what I can to redress the imbalance, by calling it into question. But I do not feel I can do more than I do, without reducing myself to the very penury and dependency and vulnerability I want to see ended, forthwith, for everyone.

But ultimately, this is an ad hominem objection. If I was arguing for economic equality, and was as rich as Croesus, that would only mean that I was a hypocrite, and would not not affect the logical validity or moral force of such an argument, at all.

Best wishes, Strivax.
 
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