Religious Exemptions: How the World Would Look If Kim Davis Had Her Way

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Mountain_Girl406

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I lost my faith in 2011 and was an atheist for two years before returning. I've been where you're at. It was by the grace of God that my heart of stone was turned into a heart of flash. Those two years were spent arguing against what I thought were bad Christian arguments. In the midst of that, I came to realize that I'd had it all wrong. The atheist's naturalistic position is epistimically bankrupt. You'll hopefully figure that out.



Before rendering aid to people, I don't feel the need to first ask whether or not Jesus is the lord of their lives. That's never even crossed my mind. It's apparently crossed yours though.
When rendering spiritual aid, it seems to be a different story. If you see 'heathens ' as people in dire need of spiritual aid yet are unwilling to provide it, instead wishing them a speedy trip to hell, then I think it's a valid comparison. We'd all hopefully save anyone we could from physical harm, but some believers apply conditions of who they would save from the spiritual harm they see coming.
 
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TheoNewstoss

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When rendering spiritual aid, it seems to be a different story. If you see 'heathens ' as people in dire need of spiritual aid yet are unwilling to provide it, instead wishing them a speedy trip to hell, then I think it's a valid comparison. We'd all hopefully save anyone we could from physical harm, but some believers apply conditions of who they would save from the spiritual harm they see coming.

What do you think I'm doing by responding to your posts? I'm rendering spiritual aid. I haven't written you off yet and I don't think praying for God's judgment is doing that. I would have that all men were saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. I would also have that God issue judgment on reprobates that are without hope. These are not mutually exclusive desires.
 
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frenchdefense

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the argument can be made, when a national law is in conflict with Divine law, that by its very nature, Divine law supersedes and thus delegitimizes the national law

kind of like how National laws override states laws

Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law.

Well, here's the problem:

A minor government functionary in the United States doesn't get to administer Divine Law. Just county laws.

Also, since Divine Law is interpreted differently by differing faiths I don't understand why the OP is taken to be ridiculous by some on this thread.

It does seem to me that different members of different faith most certain could claim conscience objection to anything their faith finds, well, objectionable given your line of argumentation.
 
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Red Fox

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our ideas about NOT molesting children also come from religion

Edited: I removed my former question because it was not initially meant to mock. It was an honest inquiry.

And as far as what I said afterward in this post, it is true.

when you look at non-Christian parts of the world, you see a much greater acceptance of child molestation

Please cite your sources to substantiate this claim. As far as I'm aware, and perhaps I'm mistaken, but known child molesters if caught are punished, unless of course, that child molester happens to be a well known religious celebrity like Josh Duggar, whose Christian parents and family hid his sexual deviance and perversion for years from the public, while he and his parents were publicly degrading and condemning LGBT families for allegedly destroying the traditional family and the sanctity of marriage.
 
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dzheremi

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I think this Kim Davis person is behaving foolishly, as are her Christian and non-Christian supporters, but I would note that the difference between traditional Christianity and both Mrs. Davis' version of I guess what could be called "Civic Christianity" and Islam is that traditionally Christians sought a place for themselves within their societies that did not involve displacing the majority, whereas Mrs. Davis and the Islamic faith both set themselves above whatever law or whatever kind of society is already in place. Hence, for instance, the Syrian Christians in India never set themselves in opposition to the Hindu majority, and only sought their own laws to govern themselves as the separate community they have been since c. 52 AD (and have never been more than a few percent of Indian society at most, so it was wise of them not to do so). Their relative separation helped, in fact, because when the colonial masters came in the form of the Roman Catholic Portuguese, they had a distinct lineage and culture that helped them resist the colonial occupier while keeping their Christianity as it was (Syriac, not Western), via the Coonan Cross Oath. This is likewise how the Copts in Egypt, despite being the numerical majority of society, resisted hundreds of years of pagan government dominance, and later Byzantine (Eastern Roman Christian) dominance, and now Muslim dominance for the past 1400 years. I don't think the likes of Kim Davis or any American Christian could do such a thing, because they are too dependent on what they see as the natural order of things, where they will always be a majority or at least always have the option to exercise their right to practice their faith via whatever means they wish (even when that includes citing Jesus as a reason to not do their jobs). I don't know how it could so consistently escape the view of these people, but that's not the way that Western societies have been headed for the past 500 years or so, and the secularization is only increasing, and can't be stopped by simply pretending that you can function within it without having it change you, either by force or by persuasion.

So it is better, I think, to try to function as our fathers have in Egypt, Syria, Iraq, and across the Middle Eastern homeland of our faith, where we have been minorities for most of the last 2000 years but always maintained our positions by separating ourselves to some degree from civil society. After all, in places where we are seriously imperiled now, like Iraq and Syria, we are in such a state because "Christian" leaders order other "Christians" to go to these places and destabilize the governments there for the sake of bringing liberty to the non-Christian majorities who use that liberty as a means to further crush us, so what can a Christian say about law protecting his or her faith? That's almost never been the case. Even being part of the Eastern Roman empire, no Coptic person experienced peace by having Byzantine rulers thrust upon them, even though these were fellow Christians in some sense. We need to stop being naive and taking things for granted and start being smarter and working small to do things that won't get on the news, but will register very consistently how we wish to live. Read: Clean our own houses first, don't hide our religion in business (to the extent that it makes sense to bring your religion into your business, that is; I don't think anyone cares if the garbage man prays to Allah or Buddha or whoever so long as the garbage is picked up), etc. Don't be these lazy, scared wimps or pompous holier-than-thou types. Our fathers fled into the deserts of Egypt, Syria, Palestine, and Asia Minor in times when persecution was much worse than someone being fired from issuing licenses she didn't want to issue in the first place, all for the sake of their religion and being able to live as they wish. And it didn't cost the society anything to have people who would rather pray living in caves and cells, but it did eventually attract people of similar mindset until a truly Christian society flourished for the ~4 centuries between the days of St. Anthony the Father of the Monks and the coming of the Arabs, who realigned society in their image in a way that is actually very similar to what both Mrs. Davis and the aggressive secularists are trying to do. The only difference is that Mrs. Davis is much less comprehensive in her application of religion to her work in the public sphere than Islam is, as Islamic law does not recognize any separation of religion and state. I believe it is better, knowing this, that Christians and others concerned with the preservation of the United States constitution, which contains within it an article guaranteeing freedom of religion, use their energies to guarantee that the Separation of Church and State so often touted by the secularists be preserved with equal force in both directions. In other words, yes, this woman's office is not a church, but free exercise of religion ought not be limited to specific buildings if you can successfully show that it isn't by matter of design, and not just whatever your personal affinity for particular parts of its laws compels you to do (i.e., you don't get to take over the common lunch room at work to hold a service, but you also should not be disallowed from praying at work, should you follow a religion that has hourly prayer at specific times, like Orthodox Christianity, Islam, and Judaism do; many companies, universities, etc. now have washrooms for their Muslim populations, which require ritual cleaning before their prayers; if Christians in the USA were smarter, we'd be pushing for our own religious rights in similar environments, rather than to take away others' rights as this Kim Davis did). That's the problem with the Kim Davis's [and Islamists] of the world: She wants to make her exercise of religion, which she is entitled to, something that everyone must follow. And her exercise of that religion includes turning away gays who came to her office as an alternative to getting married in churches in the first place. I don't agree with gay marriage even slightly, but if I were gay I would not be pleased with that idea.

So I don't think it's a zero-sum game, as plenty of people have tried to make it: "Oh, so you're with the secularists who would rather legislate us out of existence?! For the sake of the gays, who would do the same?" Nope. I'm with people recognizing that if we do not want to feel the brunt of anti-Christian and broader anti-religious sentiment of people who will one day be in positions of power in America and remembering Mrs. Davis unfavorably in deciding how to interpret and enforce laws and the constitution (and hence tarring us all with the same broad 'bigot' brush as an excuse to take away the rights that we do have, as though the Coptic Orthodox Christian, the Syriac Orthodox Christian, the Armenian Christian, the Greek Orthodox Christian, the Roman Catholic Christian, etc. are all in 'cahoots' with the Evangelical Protestant likes of Mrs. Davis by virtue of all being Christian), we ought to be a lot smarter in how we approach questions of our churches' and faith's interaction with government. Where we can improve the visibility and lot of our people, we ought to do that (e.g., why are Muslim organizations in America successfully getting content about their religion put into public schools as part of history courses and 'diversity' programs, but no Eastern Christians have done the same? This is dooming an entire generation to grow up ignorant of the real facts and history of the region, and presenting Islam uncritically as the native religion of the Middle East and a very positive force in a way that never happens with Christianity, Judaism, Yezidism, or any other Middle Eastern religion...if you're an Eastern Christian, you ought to care about this). But being self-righteous and demanding as though we are in the position to force our religion on any given society by fiat is not the way to go.

Of course I believe Christianity is the only 100% true faith and the religion that everyone should be a part of, but it has simply not been the case historically nor currently that this impulse is successfully married with state law or state-sanctioned force without suffering as a result. And not only does our faith suffer, but then people suffer at the hands of whoever is (en)forcing it, too. Why on earth would we want to so poison our Christianity in the minds of the rest of the world, thereby bringing shame upon the name of Christ our God, so that some yahoo in Kentucky doesn't have to do her job when the laws change in a way that contradict her newly-discovered beliefs? Are we so beholden to laws and having a favorable environment that we cannot function without it? It's odd, when you consider that Christians in a lot of the rest of the world don't depend on that (because they live in places where the law code favors others, and the society too), yet they provide the strongest witness to the truth and love of Christ.
 
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Rhamiel

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I'm sorry, but you're really not claiming this is true of the Catholic Church, are you?
of course I am claiming this is true of the Catholic Church
and Christianity in general

why do you think you now hold the belief that child molestation is bad?
you think you just came up with that idea on your own?
it is because society told you it is bad, and our society is still deeply rooted in Christian ideals (though we try to pretend that it is just some common thing we can all agree on)

in Muslim countries the rich men will buy "bacha bazi" or "boys for play"
this is just something that is socially tolerated
why is it tolerated? because they do not have Christian values

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/apr/25/middle-east-child-abuse-pederasty

and in east asia, we have this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enjo_kōsai
 
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Mountain_Girl406

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but a lot of what we believe in comes out of religious arguments, we just blindly accept them
it's like, if we don't talk about religion, the religious argument becomes "secular"
like human rights
the idea that the individual has rights comes from the idea that every person is made in the image and likeness of God
you look at the great work of Aristotle and Confucius
philosophical masters
but no such view of the individual

our ideas about NOT molesting children also come from religion
when you look at non-Christian parts of the world, you see a much greater acceptance of child molestation
not saying that it does not happen in the West, but it is atleast seen as a bad thing, it is not an accepted norm



exactly
I would disagree with the notion that human rights only exist because humans are created in the image and likeness of God.

As for the ontological argument, having to do with the definition of marriage. ..even if you accept that marriage is precisely defined, like the mathematical definition of a triangle, should that drive secular law.
I ate at the Triangle cafe once, it wasn't shaped like a triangle at all. I love Just Mayo, but some think the product should be illegal be because it contains no eggs, which they say violates the definition of Mayo. I disagree, people can read the label, just like they can see that one marriage is a man and a woman, another might be two men. Like they can choose to buy a Just Mayo or not, they can choose which k8nd of marriage to enter into. But if you don't like to concept of eggless mayo, that doesn't mean you have the right to ban it for all.
 
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TheoNewstoss

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I think this Kim Davis person is behaving foolishly, as are her Christian and non-Christian supporters, but I would note that the difference between traditional Christianity and both Mrs. Davis' version of I guess what could be called "Civic Christianity" and Islam is that traditionally Christians sought a place for themselves within their societies that did not involve displacing the majority

Sure, they sought a place for themselves within their societies and the majority of their day crucified and burned them for it. Secondly, heterosexual Christians are the majority according to the polls. So, uhm, what? Your point here fails.

whereas Mrs. Davis and the Islamic faith both set themselves above whatever law or whatever kind of society is already in place. Hence, for instance, the Syrian Christians in India never set themselves in opposition to the Hindu majority

Being a Christian by definition is to be in opposition of the majority. Matthew 7:14, John 15:20

I don't think the likes of Kim Davis or any American Christian could do such a thing, because they are too dependent on what they see as the natural order of things, where they will always be a majority

Weren't you just complaining that she was displacing the majority. Here you're saying she belongs to the majority, which is it?

As for the rest of your dribble, it's all just as easily refuted. How? Because it's self-refuting, which is readily apparent to anyone who bothered to read it.
 
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TheoNewstoss

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As for the ontological argument, having to do with the definition of marriage. ..even if you accept that marriage is precisely defined, like the mathematical definition of a triangle, should that drive secular law.

That's a real toughy. Let me think about that for a second... Should our laws be reflective of reality? Yes.
 
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Rhamiel

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I would disagree with the notion that human rights only exist because humans are created in the image and likeness of God.

As for the ontological argument, having to do with the definition of marriage. ..even if you accept that marriage is precisely defined, like the mathematical definition of a triangle, should that drive secular law.
I ate at the Triangle cafe once, it wasn't shaped like a triangle at all. I love Just Mayo, but some think the product should be illegal be because it contains no eggs, which they say violates the definition of Mayo. I disagree, people can read the label, just like they can see that one marriage is a man and a woman, another might be two men. Like they can choose to buy a Just Mayo or not, they can choose which k8nd of marriage to enter into. But if you don't like to concept of eggless mayo, that doesn't mean you have the right to ban it for all.

the secular law is now forcing Christians to accept "gay marriage"

which goes against the natural order

I do not even really care about what Kim Davis does or does not do
but I find it odd that SO many Christians go out of their way to mock her

they would NEVER think of being so cruel to a Christian who is struggling with homosexuality
but they will just be horrible to someone who is trying to do the right thing

John 13:35
By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another


sorry.... I did not really answer your question....

oh about the human rights thing
it is not solely based on that
but the Western idea of individual liberties is based on Christianity
this is just an intellectual fact
sorry if I sound pompous, we could go in to how the Enlightenment grew out of Christianity
and how we do not really see those ideals growing organically in other cultures
as sad as it is, the horrible Colonialism did have an effect of making Western norms into something more like Global norms (not 100% of course, as my previous post about boy sex slaves in Muslim countries shows)

marriage was created by God
we should respect that
 
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Mountain_Girl406

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the argument can be made, when a national law is in conflict with Divine law, that by its very nature, Divine law supersedes and thus delegitimizes the national law

kind of like how National laws override states laws

Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law.
But that would require the nation to accept the existence of Divine Law.
 
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Mountain_Girl406

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Since definitions matter, perhaps then, I don't understand the meaning of apologist. Someone who thinks it's nice that some people end up in hell wasn't my understanding.
 
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TheoNewstoss

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Since definitions matter, perhaps then, I don't understand the meaning of apologist. Someone who thinks it's nice that some people end up in hell wasn't my understanding.

Did I say it was nice that people end up in hell? I don't recall saying that for some reason... Oh yeah, it's cause I didn't say that.

Oh no, another straw man is on fire!

VccerCl.jpg
 
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frenchdefense

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the secular law is now forcing Christians to accept "gay marriage"

I keep hear this but I don't hear anything about the government forcing churches to perform gay marriages.

You don't have to accept, you don't even have to be involved in it if you don't want to. No one is forcing Kim Davis to be a county clerk. But if she chooses to be a country clerk she has to actually administer the law.

which goes against the natural order

You agree, I agree but not everyone in the society agrees. That is why we have secular laws instead of religious ones.

DavisI do not even really care about what Kim does or does not do
but I find it odd that SO many Christians go out of their way to mock her

It is not mocking to expect a person to do their job. The job that they pursued. The job that choose. The job no one is forcing them to be in.

they would NEVER think of being so cruel to a Christian who is struggling with homosexuality
but they will just be horrible to someone who is trying to do the right thing

.....and now you're a mind reader ?

What am I thinking about right now ?

(I'll give you a hint - it's liquid, amber in color and is garnished with a cherry)

John 13:35
By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another

I can't remember for certain but isn't there a line in the bible about doing your job ?


sorry.... I did not really answer your question....

That's right, you didn't - it was a Manhattan cocktail I was thinking about

oh about the human rights thing
it is not solely based on that
but the Western idea of individual liberties is based on Christianity
Sorry if I sound pompous, we could go in to how the Enlightenment grew out of Christianity
and how we do not really see those ideals growing organically in other cultures
as sad as it is, the horrible Colonialism did have an effect of making Western norms into something more like Global norms (not 100% of course, as my previous post about boy sex slaves in Muslim countries shows)

marriage was created by God
we should respect that

There as so many things wrong with this statement I don't really know where to start.

But if can read my mind that you'll know what I'm about to do

(That's right - I'm going to lunch - which will include a Manhattan because you made me think of one)
 
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Mountain_Girl406

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What do you think I'm doing by responding to your posts? I'm rendering spiritual aid. I haven't written you off yet and I don't think praying for God's judgment is doing that. I would have that all men were saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. I would also have that God issue judgment on reprobates that are without hope. These are not mutually exclusive desires.
Are there any without hope?
 
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Red Fox

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It is not mocking to expect a person to do their job. The job that they pursued. The job that choose. The job no one is forcing them to be in.

If her job was really afflicting her conscience and violated her Christians convictions to the point where she felt she could no longer do her job, then she should have done the most honorable and humble thing she could do, which would be to resign from her position. If she had humbly resigned, without making such a public spectacle of herself, then she wouldn't be seen as such a self-righteous, hypocritical, bigoted religious zealot. Needless to say, she hasn't shown any sign of true humility so far and resigned from her position, which makes me think she's relishing in her newfound fame as the "persecuted Christian" from all the public attention and publicity she has brought on herself.
 
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