Religious Exemptions: How the World Would Look If Kim Davis Had Her Way

[Mountain_Girl406]

Praying for the Lord to do exactly what he said he would do, and that's separate the wolves from the sheep.

The Lord commissioned us to turn all people into believers, though, so if he had to throw some in the pit, it's because His disciples failed. Sounds like you're praying for that instead of praying for success in bringing people to Christ. Telling non believers that you pray that God quickly sends them to Hell seems like the opposite of a disciple's job.

 

[TheoNewstoss]

The Lord commissioned us to turn all people into believers, though, so if he had to throw some in the pit, it's because His disciples failed.

Not if unconditional election and irresistible grace obtain. Also, where is this commission to turn all people into believers? I recall "make disciples of all nations," but not "convert everyone."

 

[Red Fox]

The Lord commissioned us to turn all people into believers, though, so if he had to throw some in the pit, it's because His disciples failed. Sounds like you're praying for that instead of praying for success in bringing people to Christ. Telling non believers that you pray that God quickly sends them to Hell seems like the opposite of a disciple's job.

Not to mention the fact that it can actually turn people away from Christ and cause them to have a poor image of His followers.

 

[TheoNewstoss]

Not to mention the fact that it can actually turn people away from Christ and cause them to have a poor image of His followers.

Right, cause they don't do that already for a slew of other reasons. The truth is hate to those that hate the truth.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

Not if unconditional election and irresistible grace obtain. Also, where is this commission to turn all people into believers? I recall "make disciples of all nations," but not "convert everyone."

If unconditional election applies, if I understand it, there's no need to make disciples, right? God's already chosen them.
If not, the verse in Matthew says to make disciples in (of) all nations, baptizing them. I didn't assume He meant to baptize the nations, but the people in the nations. If I'm right, then how many people is enough? If you are a disciple, and see it as important to answer God's call, why instead pray for failure and thus quick condemnation of the non believers you encounter? People come here to learn, maybe find faith...you don't even need to lace up your sandals and go to them. Yet some would rather run them off.

 

[Red Fox]

If unconditional election applies, if I understand it, there's no need to make disciples, right? God's already chosen them.
If not, the verse in Matthew says to make disciples in (of) all nations, baptizing them. I didn't assume He meant to baptize the nations, but the people in the nations. If I'm right, then how many people is enough? If you are a disciple, and see it as important to answer God's call, why instead pray for failure and thus quick condemnation of the non believers you encounter? People come here to learn, maybe find faith...you don't even need to lace up your sandals and go to them. Yet some would rather run them off.

You intrigued me while I was reading your post, and what you said reminded me of Romans 10:14, among other scriptures, but that one came to mind first.

 

[TheoNewstoss]

If unconditional election applies, if I understand it, there's no need to make disciples, right? God's already chosen them.

No, that does not logically follow within a Christian context. God may use the tools at His disposal to achieve His goals. One of those tools are His disciples. God is able to destroy an entire army by making them slaughter each other or by using His people Israel to achieve the same goal. Remember those various stories throughout the Bible?

If not, the verse in Matthew says to make disciples in (of) all nations, baptizing them. I didn't assume He meant to baptize the nations, but the people in the nations. If I'm right, then how many people is enough? If you are a disciple, and see it as important to answer God's call, why instead pray for failure and thus quick condemnation of the non believers you encounter?

There's nothing inconsistent about praying for the judgment of reprobates. The very term (reprobate) means "rejected." They are given over to their vile affections, to the wicked lusts of their hearts by God. They openly reject the gospel and exchange the truth of God for a lie. I'm with Mikhael here. Jesus come soon and throw these rapid wolves into the pit.

People come here to learn, maybe find faith...you don't even need to lace up your sandals and go to them. Yet some would rather run them off.

People come here to commune with fellow Christians or lambaste us for believing in God and that His word is truth and life to them that believe. I've only been here for a couple of weeks and that's readily apparent to me.

 

[MoonlessNight]

I'm starting to become of the opinion that if our betters at the top have no obligation to follow the law, us plebians at the bottom should also have no such obligation.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

No, that does not logically follow within a Christian context. God may use the tools at His disposal to achieve His goals. One of those tools are His disciples. God is able to destroy an entire army by making them slaughter each other or by using His people Israel to achieve the same goal. Remember those various stories throughout the Bible?



There's nothing inconsistent about praying for the judgment of reprobates. The very term (reprobate) means "rejected." They are given over to their vile affections, to the wicked lusts of their hearts by God. They openly reject the gospel and exchange the truth of God for a lie. I'm with Mikhael here. Jesus come soon and throw these rapid wolves into the pit.

People come here to commune with fellow Christians or lambaste us for believing in God and that His word is truth and life to them that believe. I've only been here for a couple of weeks and that's readily apparent to me.

I've been here for a couple of weeks, to, looking for help from Christians to recover my lost faith. I identify as a Catholic agnostic, Catholic because I'm still trying, attending Mass, praying, serving my parish, trying to lead a good life, etc..and agnostics because I doubt God exists. Maybe this isn't the place for me if the Christians here would rather just see me in Hell than take the effort to help.

I wonder, if you saw an injured 'heathen' on the side of the road, would you help or pray for their death so that God could more quickly condemn them? Seems most would do a lot to save a life, even of a liberal, heathen, Muslim or athiest, but some of those who believe in eternal life aren't willing to do much to save the non believer from eternal suffering, but instead cheer it on.

 

[Red Fox]

I'm starting to become of the opinion that if our betters at the top have no obligation to follow the law, us plebians at the bottom should also have no such obligation.

And what a downward spiral that would be for this nation if every citizen decided that he or she didn't have to follow the laws of this country because said laws contradicted their religious beliefs or the lack of religious beliefs. So quite thankfully, no citizen, regardless of their religious preference, is above the laws of this country.

 

[Red Fox]

I've been here for a couple of weeks, to, looking for help from Christians to recover my lost faith. I identify as a Catholic agnostic, Catholic because I'm still trying, attending Mass, praying, serving my parish, trying to lead a good life, etc..and agnostics because I doubt God exists. Maybe this isn't the place for me if the Christians here would rather just see me in Hell than take the effort to help.

You are not alone.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

And what a downward spiral that would be for this nation if every citizen decided that he or she didn't have to follow the laws of this country because said laws contradicted their religious beliefs or the lack of religious beliefs. So quite thankfully, no citizen, regardless of their religious preference, is above the laws of this country.

That's why I think things like laws against gay marriage have no place in the broader secular society. There's no argument for banning gay marriage outside of the religious ones. Religions that oppose gay marriage should teach their members not to engage in it, can rightfully refuse to give a religious blessing to it, and should teach people of the spiritual penalties they see associated with it. If they want to see it gone from the greater society, they simply have to share their faith and convince more to come into their fold.

 

[TheoNewstoss]

I've been here for a couple of weeks, to, looking for help from Christians to recover my lost faith. I identify as a Catholic agnostic, Catholic because I'm still trying, attending Mass, praying, serving my parish, trying to lead a good life, etc..and agnostics because I doubt God exists. Maybe this isn't the place for me if the Christians here would rather just see me in Hell than take the effort to help.

I lost my faith in 2011 and was an atheist for two years before returning. I've been where you're at. It was by the grace of God that my heart of stone was turned into a heart of flash. Those two years were spent arguing against what I thought were bad Christian arguments. In the midst of that, I came to realize that I'd had it all wrong. The atheist's naturalistic position is epistimically bankrupt. You'll hopefully figure that out.

I wonder, if you saw an injured 'heathen' on the side of the road, would you help or pray for their death so that God could more quickly condemn them? Seems most would do a lot to save a life, even of a liberal, heathen, Muslim or athiest, but some of those who believe in eternal life aren't willing to do much to save the non believer from eternal suffering, but instead cheer it on.

Before rendering aid to people, I don't feel the need to first ask whether or not Jesus is the lord of their lives. That's never even crossed my mind. It's apparently crossed yours though.

 

[frenchdefense]

A lot of these involve people knowingly choosing a profession that requires doing something they don't believe in. Kim Davis didn't do that so I'm a bit confused by the comparisons.

Now I'm confused:

Kim Davis ran for county clerk and didn't understand her job was to actually administer the laws of the land ?

That's exactly what minor government officials do.

 

[Red Fox]

That's why I think things like laws against gay marriage have no place in the broader secular society. There's no argument for banning gay marriage outside of the religious ones. Religions that oppose gay marriage should teach their members not to engage in it, can rightfully refuse to give a religious blessing to it, and should teach people of the spiritual penalties they see associated with it. If they want to see it gone from the greater society, they simply have to share their faith and convince more to come into their fold.

I agree that laws against gay marriage have no place in our secular society. As I have repeatedly said before, this country isn't Christian and its government isn't either. Therefore, the non-Christians living in this country do not, under any circumstances, have to adhere and live by any moral code or written laws in the bible of Christianity. No one specific religion in this country should be given special exclusive rights and privileges that would be denied to other religions and secular people also living in this country. All religions represented in this nation should have the same rights and privileges and no one specific religion should be dominate over the other religions or people. Religious freedom, equal rights, and civil rights should be given to every citizen living in this country, regardless of their religious preference or the lack of any religious beliefs. I still think it is astonishing that in the year 2015, in a nation that continuously boasts of its freedom, its liberty and justice for all, and calls itself the land of the free and home of the brave, that there are still people living in this country who still have to fight for equal rights and for their civil rights as citizens of this nation. I think it's shameful.

 

[Poor Beggar]

Now I'm confused:

Kim Davis ran for county clerk and didn't understand her job was to actually administer the laws of the land ?

That's exactly what minor government officials do.

Not illegal laws.

 

[frenchdefense]

Not illegal laws.

What the living mercy sake is "illegal" law ?

I think laws that have be adjudicated up to the Supreme Court and held to be legal are by definition "legal"

Now, you don't have to agree with it, but as a government functionary you have to actually administer it.

If you can't do that, find another line of work.

 

[TheoNewstoss]

• In 2004, Mayor Gavin Newsom of San Francisco directed city officials to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples, in defiance of California state law.
• In 2004, Mayor Jason West of New Paltz directed city officials to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples, in defiance of New York state law.
• In 2010, attorney general Jerry Brown declined to answer legal challenges to California’s marriage law, which, after Proposition 8, was that “only marriage between a man and a woman is valid.” His job was to represent the state of California in legal matters and defend its laws, including those he didn’t like.
• In 2013, D. Bruce Hanes, an official of Montgomery County, began issuing marriage licenses to same-sex couples, in defiance of Pennsylvania state law.

Source: National Review
​

I wonder if I search through the posts of people outraged by this Kim Davis issue if I would find similar outrage in their post history over these events. Anyone care to make a wager?

 

[Rhamiel]

If no argument can be made for a law outside of a specific religious argument, then such a thing shouldn't be a law in a society that is inclusive of all faiths or the absence of faith.

but a lot of what we believe in comes out of religious arguments, we just blindly accept them
it's like, if we don't talk about religion, the religious argument becomes "secular"
like human rights
the idea that the individual has rights comes from the idea that every person is made in the image and likeness of God
you look at the great work of Aristotle and Confucius
philosophical masters
but no such view of the individual

our ideas about NOT molesting children also come from religion
when you look at non-Christian parts of the world, you see a much greater acceptance of child molestation
not saying that it does not happen in the West, but it is atleast seen as a bad thing, it is not an accepted norm

I think the OP doesn't understand the issue, which as I see it, is largely about the ontology of marriage.

exactly

 

[Rhamiel]

What the living mercy sake is "illegal" law ?

I think laws that have be adjudicated up to the Supreme Court and held to be legal are by definition "legal"

Now, you don't have to agree with it, but as a government functionary you have to actually administer it.

If you can't do that, find another line of work.

the argument can be made, when a national law is in conflict with Divine law, that by its very nature, Divine law supersedes and thus delegitimizes the national law

kind of like how National laws override states laws

Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law.