Relating to Jesus
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Sketcher
Born Imperishable
That's the theory, not the practice. We don't read Paul's letters because of his past. We read them because after he converted, God gave him revelation and illumination to preach the Gospel. When you look at his old life, he was very legalistic and very murderous. He interestingly doesn't tell us how to not be that way. Rather, he reveals that he was convinced Christianity is true, and that he emphasized grace and love because of God's transforming power in his life. His obsession with the Gospel left no room for those old ways, and while you can teach the Gospel, I don't believe you can teach a holy obsession with it such that he had.
Jesus took on the sin on the cross, absolutely. I'm not convinced that it means that he had intimate knowledge of saying "yes" to every single possible temptation on the cross. In fact, I am positive that he was tempted while on the cross - tempted to escape, tempted to take revenge on those who were mocking him, and those who had crucified him. He clearly did not say "yes" to those temptations on the cross. He had zero experience of saying "yes" to temptation himself, and therefore zero experience of the temptation that comes when you've already dug a deeper hole for yourself when you have sinned already. No matter; he was tempted in general many times, and more intensely than many of us have been tempted - whether in the desert, or on the cross.
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- Jun 28, 2011
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Both fruit? Sounds a bit too Mario Bros. Can you clarify please?
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- Jun 28, 2011
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All good brother, I think he disposed of the fruit of the flesh quite convincingly. The fruit of His spirit is disposed of to a fantastical extent in the lives of His followers. We should be reflective of it. We are not.
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- Oct 10, 2011
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OK, OK...
I know this one personally, but, please don't judge me, OK...?
Yes, it's true every little sin, every big one, and everything in-between, he felt the temptation of, to do... As have I... But, I found out, that it started out innocently, playing around "projecting" thinking you were other people, character's in stories, books, other peoples conversations talking about other people (He related to us and gained insight into us all by this) Today, T.V., audio... It started out innocent, because, well, like in the movie: Never-ending Story, the Man in the bookstore ask's the kid, "Have you ever "been" Captain Nemo, ect, ect... The kid says "Yes, I have, that's how I feel when I read the story"... It starts out in fun and innocence cause you play all the hero's, until you learn your not, and can't stop the projecting anymore at this point either, then you go through the bad guys, which is when it get's scary, and the fear does things to you...
Also, thinking that your like inanimate objects, or plants or animals or things, relating things and situations to your own personal life and self, which is very confusing and scary (which is how got to know how the angels and God see's or perceives things in their world)... The fear and especially going through all the bad guys, fear snowballs and get's out of control, voices in and outside of your head of friends and foes come and are heard... You want to stop and think it's wrong now, what you were doing before, and the fear has snowballed to the point of panic, paranoia, P.T.S.D. severe anxiety, and nervous problems, combined with a lot of confusion, that you now think is wrong and want it to stop, but you can't and it won't... Choices and decisions you make, if you doubt or second-guess, cause more fear, fear of wickedness and evil, even hearing about it, or being around or exposed to it can make you afraid...
Fear, turning into snowballing, running away effect fear, coupled with a sensitivity to anything you sense is or is "wrong" about or with anything in, about you, or around you, you either feel the sense of wrong, causing fear, or fear snowballing into more fear, either way, has a very shameful side effect... That's where the "temptation" part comes in, the sense of wrong in and with "anything", which has become a lot of things, causing fear with a snowballing effect, causing the shameful side effect, that is the feeling of being tempted... The three, the sense of wrong, the fear, the shameful side effect all happen so fast that sometimes, you do not know which is happening first or last, but, most usually, it's sensing wrong, becoming afraid, then the side effect...
He overcame, I am still trying to... Please don't judge me...
The fight or flight response is overwhelming due to the fear, I, when I'm having problems with these, that I have been diagnosed with having a mental disorder from, I usually run, but, I am going to have to take a stand and fight eventually, I think...
God Bless!
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- Oct 10, 2011
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Yeah, I'm still trying to keep my head above water, go to see counselor/med doctor on Thursday, keep taking my meds, that wasn't easy for me to post, or to admit or to say, so, I'm glad that you thought it was awesome...
God Bless!
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You're an artists obviously, another patient told me in hospital once.
"The doctors lock us up because we might not eat or sleep for a while and have different views than them, but this is because we like to create art and sometimes we don't eat or sleep to focus on our projects."
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- Jun 28, 2011
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Brother, you are no different from the rest of us, except that perhaps you care a whole lot more. Rest my friend in His Grace. Thats why He's given it to us. The Sabbath commandent is perhaps the most important commandment of the new covenant (The Law of the Spirit). Make every day a day of rest in Him. He's right there with you.
I feel like I need to show you the Priestly blessing of (Numbers 6)
Yevarechecha YHWH Veyishmarecha
The Lord Bless you and keep you,
Yaer YHWH panava lecha vichunencha
The Lord Smile upon you and be merciful to you,
Yisa YHWH panava lecha vayasem lecha Shalom
The Lord look up to you and say to you Everything is alright.
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- Oct 10, 2011
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Thank You both very much, I think I just about had a tear come to my eye, it touched my heart, Thank You Guys!
God Bless You!
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One who sins must stop sinning in order to gain forgiveness. One who knows the truth will reject the lie. One who knows to do right will immediately reject the temptation. To entertain thoughts of temptation is sin.
Jesus did not sin. He had to live among sinners without allowing himself to be controlled by them.
Jesus did not sin. He had to live among sinners without allowing himself to be controlled by them.
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Far Side Of the Moon
" The moon is high& the stars are aligned" :)
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Well if you're a believer in Christ, when you let him into your heart that's when hr can intervene and help you with your daily life...many people here have amazing testimonies about God helping them through some kind of situation.
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Far Side Of the Moon
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Ah, I'm an artist... When its late ..i have to tell myself to get sleep..bc my art will always be there...plus I've done the staying up thing and its no fun. Much rather have a healthy mind and body so the creativity can flow through me more effectively.
But one thing about me is that I've never not eaten lol, I will never skimp on that lol
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important is at least to not cause harm/suffering to our neighbor(cohabitant/townsman) in principle, and Jesus and His true disciples succeeded in this because They had kept Themselves unstained by the heresies: They had not been idolaters, They had not practiced (any form of) occultism, They had not believed/trusted in any other god/lord/spirit besides the true One, They had not served/pleased the system of human(666) spirituality/religiosity, etc. - this is the way the worshipers can be sinless in principle, namely by not participating in the works of the system of spiritual unrighteousness/lawlessness/wickedness, because whatever spirit is in the heart of the worshiper, the things of that spirit are what he or she will (be inclined to) do, and the consequence may easily turn out to be inevitable - God forbid there be bad consequences
Luke 6:45 "A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh."
Blessings
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Theologically we can be certain that Christ did not experience temptation as defined by the internal struggle of competing desires opposed in their moral standing. We can know this because in James 1:14 immediately following the exclamation that God can not be tempted, James says, "but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed." Since Christ did not have any evil desires, in accordance with His divine nature, it follows from this that endogenous temptation is not the kind that Christ could have experienced. By endogenous temptation I mean that sort of temptation that emerges from pre-existing desires in oneself that conflicts with righteous living and attitudes when one is conscious of that conflict. The kind of temptation that Jesus would have experienced is instead the impressions upon Himself from external sources that were aimed at satisfying a merely fleshly impulse, despite the impulses contradiction with godly living.
This does not render Jesus' temptation any less significant or less human, as suffering that results from the external pressures to oneself can be experienced just as strongly as one who suffers this temptation internally. To provide a couple examples, the diligent man does not feel less suffering from His labour than the lazy man and that's why he continues to labour; rather, the lazy man is lazy because, like the diligent man, he feels the pain of labour but instead surrenders to it. The brave man does not necessarily care less for his life than the coward and that's why he enters battle courageously; rather, the coward flees from the responsibility of defending his home because, like the brave man, he feels the anxiety of the threat to his life but instead surrenders to it. So in these cases you have the base experience of fatigue and anxiety respectively, and in each one you have the human potential of how you can respond. To presume that the response of the individual is determined by the basal emotional experience and it's strength is to denounce the freedom of the will as witnessed in many active and brave individuals (to correspond to the above examples), and to presume determinism, which would have to be demonstrated as the most viable position on human decision before we could soundly advance an argument against the legitimacy of Christ's suffering as a result of exogenous temptations.
Additionally, suffering as a result of temptation is not intrinsically a result of the endogenous kind. Temptations from within broaden the number of potential sources for the resulting pain, but categorically they are not the exclusive source of it. One does not have to desire to be lazy to feel the physical fatigue and pain of labourious stress, and one does not have to desire to steal to feel the intense pain of a malnourished and deprived body. Christ's desires would have been perfectly aligned with those of the Father, but He would still feel the competition of His flesh towards His Spirit when He was hungry after forty days of deprivation in the desert. The difference between mere man that would emerge is not the pain and hunger Jesus felt in this condition, but rather in the experience of Jesus' soul in which He would not desire in accordance with the flesh, as opposed to the will of His Father that He suffer this way. In other words, this would translate to Christ as a desire to eat without the present permission to, but not as the desire to eat despite His Father's present prohibition to, as we experience with various sins.
i would add as a final note in response to this particular question that, again, this does not remove Jesus from a legitimately and entirely human experience, as we ourselves can relate to this on varying levels depending on our personal psychologies. A commonly true example would be in a context where we had to decide between us or our children if essential resources were limited. If there was virtually no food available for yourself and your children, it is highly likely that you would rather feed your children than yourself; this, however, would not reduce the strength of the hunger that you felt as a result of your personal deprivation. It could not, then, be rightly stated that you do not know what it'ls like to suffer starvation, though compared to a man who would rather feed himself.
The only reason Paul is able to recognize his need to overcome sin and do so is on account that he is aware there is such sin. The reason he knows there is such sin is that there is one who taught him either through direct revelation or the provision of cognitive capacities that could intuitively apprehend the existence of this sin. The only way that God would be able to provide Paul this knowledge objectively is that God's nature itself is the source of moral values that Paul has behaved contrary to. Paul's teaching is worthless without Christ's, as it is entirely based on the revelation and power of Christ. Teaching, including Paul's teaching, is essentially nothing more than presentations or repetitions of those presentations of what was already true. Paul is an effective teacher rhetorically because we can relate to his battle with sin; Jesus is the essential teacher substantially because it is the knowledge of Him that makes us conscious of sin, righteousness, and judgement (John 16:8-11), and upon which Paul's teaching is based.
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As I already said, being fully man and God in the flesh is a massive advantage. (This hasn't been addressed) Forget that Jesus felt or thought, or rather had external feelings or thoughts trying to persuade him.
We are held accountable by our internal feelings and thoughts, and he experienced none of it? I think people have become too uncomfortable with people who may be tempted to feel or think a certain way, and treat the persons temptation as a real physical threat.
It's ridiculous to think that the feeling and thought police exist, but they really do. There's a great demand today to think positive and to be good, but if there is only good and evil to choose out of this whole universe then it's my choice (Anyones choice)
Notwithstanding, this is the dilemma. You're forced to choose good if you believe you will be punished for being evil. It's not a choice, it's a gun to your head pushing you to be more and more positive more good for his sake.
Now don't say that's not the equation, I have read countless testimonies and threads where Christian's are obsessed with God's goodness and trying to emulate that positive.
It's heart breaking, truly heart breaking.
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