Reform groups challenge U.S. bishops to create 'a church for our daughters'

tadoflamb

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Re motivation to become a priest, male or female:
I really wonder if it is the magic of transubstantiation that attracts. Like a magic show.Becoming a magician. Of course I say this with all due respect and in the context of doing God's work as a calling.

For me, it's just an all out attraction to the Holy Eucharist. My earliest prayer once I surrendered my heart to Jesus was for Him to let me know Him the way He wanted to be known. The next thing I knew I was in RCIA, got confirmed Catholic and was then asked to be an altar server. It's that immediate and profound answer to my prayer that's caused me to have a love for the liturgy and the Holy Eucharist. Being a priest, with the authority to consecrate Holy Eucharist, to me would be the greatest privilege.

But, we are a priesthood of believers and the line between the laity and the clergy is very fine. As Christians we all take on the threefold mission of priest, prophet and king.
 
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Fish and Bread

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I'm using my phone, so its a little harder to do partial quotes, but there was something earlier I didn't reply to and wanted to come back to.

For the poster who questioned whether God could be referenced in feminine terms and still be compatible with the bible, here is a link to a partial list of bible passages where God is referred or is referred in the feminine by way of analogy:

http://www.womensordination.org/resources/female-images-of-god-in-the-bible/

In addition, there is a "character" in the Old Testament of bible named Wisdom who is explicitly referenced as a woman and is implied to be the embodiment of divine wisdom. Some think she is the Word incaranate in another way, or the divine Logos, who is also Jesus Christ.

I think the poster who raised this issue is Protestant, if I recall correctly, and I am not sure if his or her denomination recognizes the concept of tradition and Saints, but there was a Christian named Julian of Norwhich who is recognized as Blessed (An official designation close to but not quite Sainthood) in Roman Catholicism, a Saint in Anglicanism, and who has made the liturgical calendars of some Lutheran denominations or churches. She wrote at length way back in the 14th century and described God using feminine pronouns- even God the Son.

Whether or not one recognizes her as a special Christian historically or rather simply lives by sola scriptura (scripture alone), that should at least be evidence that the idea of the divine femine in the Christian context is not society bleeding into the life of the Church due to modern politics or whatever, but may in fact be an example of Christian love and inclusion breaking into the world. :)

This, of course, is not to say that God is feminine *as opposed to* masculine, but rather that God transcends human gender, and is reflected in the best attributes of both genders, both of whom were created in the likeness and image of God.
 
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Godlovesmetwo

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Being a priest, with the authority to consecrate Holy Eucharist, to me would be the greatest privilege.
Too bad you can't get special dispensation as a married person to be a priest. (maybe you can just skip the 6 to 8 years in the seminary training)
 
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Godlovesmetwo

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There was a survey done recently, it said priests and artists are the happiest with their jobs.
It's funny the things people say on here can echo in my mind while I am doing other things. This is one of them.
 
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Fish and Bread

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The argument for female priests in the Catholic Church is a non starter. Pope Francis confirmed St. Pope John Paul II. The Church lacks the authority to do it.

In the three Papacies prior to John-Paul II (John XXIII, Paul VI, and John-Paul I), female ordination was considered a real possibility (I am speaking of the eras represented, not those men themselves). John-Paul II and his right-hand man at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Congregation of the Faith, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, were strongly against it, weeded out the bishops who favored it (and replaced others through attrition), and issued doctrinal statements (I believe they came through Ratzinger, generally) that said the Church lacked authority to ordain female priests- as well as bishops and deacons and signaled strongly that they considered it a settled matter. Then Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger himself was elevated to the Papacy as Pope Benedict XVI, and obviously upheld the words he himself had written.

However, now we see the very next Pope, Pope Francis speak of establishing a commission to study the ordination of female deacons. So, he does not appear to have concluded that deacons can only be men (Nor has he concluded the opposite, of course). And, many of the documents and statements made under the prior two Papacies (Which are primarily tied to one man- Ratzinger/Benedict) explicitly tie in deacons with priests and bishops because ordination is one sacrament (as in one of seven). So, by the very theology that states that the church has no authority to ordain female bishops and priests, it is the one who set forth that himself who says it applies equally to deacons, and now we are talking about studying female deacons, so in Ratzinger/Benedict's efforts to try to really close the door to women by extending thinking about bishops and priests to deacons, he may have inadvertently opened it up in so far as once we get deacons, his "no authority" claim will be null and void. :) He's probably kicking himself right now for tying deacons in so strongly with his argument.

Now, of course, there is the in persona christi thing, but that's a whole other discussion (Albeit a related one), and we could talk about that, but I strongly believe a woman can stand in persona christi, and you can probably guess at why I think so.

So, really, this issue is not settled to my way of thinking.

I agree that as a practical matter, we will not see female priests *licitly* ordained while Francis is Pope, and the only way we'd see them in the next Papacy is if the next Pope is significantly further to the left than Francis, which is unlikely based on my own analysis of the likely conclave and how I think Vatican politics work in general (Though the make up of the conclave and the state of Vatican politics do to some extent depend on how long Francis lives as well the state of the world and the state of the church at the next conclave- i.e. You never know.).

However, I do think female priests will be licitly ordained eventually. It may be 50 or 100 years off. I don't expect it tomorrow, just as a practical matter. The Church is slow to change and often thinks in terms of centuries.

By the way, since we are now shortly after the feast day of Saint Mary Magdalene, it might be worth noting that she is referred to by the Church as the Apostle to the Apostles. The successors of Apostles are bishops. Something to think about.
 
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Davidnic

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Actually theologically impossible according to Catholic dogma.

When people talk about better roles for women in the church and keep talking about female ordination it's like getting mad at the Sun for not rising in a different direction and not being purple.

Even when the concept was seriously looked at the theological impossibility was always mentioned and never overcome.

The Mary Magdalene thing is not related because she wasn't one of the Apostles ordained. And she's been referred to as the Apostle to the apostles since st. Hilary I believe.

This is something the church can't change. You understand even a council lacks the authority to change it.

Even if every single Bishop in the Catholic Church wanted to do it there is no mechanism to allow it.

If I don't reply it's because I'm not in town at the moment.
 
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Colin

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In the three Papacies prior to John-Paul II (John XXIII, Paul VI, and John-Paul I), female ordination was considered a real possibility (I am speaking of the eras represented, not those men themselves).
I was never aware of that F and B .
 
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pat34lee

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It amazes me that women who went through emancipation and fighting for equality, accept the lack of opportunities in the Church for promotion to higher positions.

What did God say about the matter?
Didn't Paul give the qualifications for such office?
 
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Fish and Bread

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Actually theologically impossible according to Catholic dogma.

When people talk about better roles for women in the church and keep talking about female ordination it's like getting mad at the Sun for not rising in a different direction and not being purple.

Even when the concept was seriously looked at the theological impossibility was always mentioned and never overcome.

The Mary Magdalene thing is not related because she wasn't one of the Apostles ordained. And she's been referred to as the Apostle to the apostles since st. Hilary I believe.

This is something the church can't change. You understand even a council lacks the authority to change it.

Even if every single Bishop in the Catholic Church wanted to do it there is no mechanism to allow it.

I understand that Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger believed that the Church had no authority to ordain female clergy, and thus could not do so even if it wanted to, because God would have had to have directly granted that authority, and in Ratzinger's view, he had not. However, I do not agree with Ratzinger's interpretation of events. I don't disagree with him lightly, as he is obviously an expert in his field, but, nevertheless, I do disagree, and so do others.

To say arguing in favor of female ordination is the same as arguing that the sun should rise in another direction or be purple presupposes a certain subjective theological agreement to Ratzinger's doctrine. After all, the sun being yellow or orange and rising in the east are objective verifiable realities. We can not objectively verify in a way that would universally be satisfactory to all that the Church has no authority to ordain female bishops, priests, and deacons. It's a subjective interpretation. There's a certain line of reasoning used to support it, but that line of reasoning is debatable, as most things are.

I was never aware of that F and B .

In 1976, the Pontifical Biblical Commission issued the following as part of it's report:

"It does not seem that the New Testament by itself alone will permit us to settle in a clear way and once and for all the problem of the possible accession of women to the presbyterate.


However, some think that in the scriptures there are sufficient indications to exclude this possibility, considering that the sacraments of Eucharist and reconciliation have a special link with the person of Christ and therefore with the male hierarchy, as borne out by the New Testament.

Others, on the contrary, wonder if the church hierarchy, entrusted with the sacramental economy, would be able to entrust the ministries of Eucharist and reconciliation to women in light of circumstances, without going against Christ's original intentions.
"

This indicates that a debate was on-going at high levels in the church as recently as 1976, within two years of the end of Pope Paul VI's reign. I did take special care not to say that Pope Paul VI himself was in favor of female ordination, because he was not. I just said that this matter wasn't considered settled at that time, which it wasn't (Some tried to claim it was, even at the time, but very prominent churchmen held the door open or were in favor of women priests, and Pope John-Paul purged some of them and let others go through attrition- i.e. they reached mandatory retirement age, submitted their resignations, and the Pope replaced them with people who thought more like him).

Though the book isn't about this topic in general, Archbishop Rembert Weakland wrote a book called A Pilgrim in a Pilgrim's Church, where he relates a story of having to fight very hard to keep his suffragon bishop in good standing with Pope JP2 after said bishop said something positive about female ordination. Actually, that book is a good one in general to get an alternate narrative about what happened to the Church during and around JP2's Papacy. I mean an alternate relative to the one you would usually hear. I am not necessarily endorsing either narrative, but we've all heard the one, it makes sense to hear the other for the sake of completeness.

Now, that said, I do want to include as a caveat here that Archbishop Weakland left office under a cloud of scandal, which he does address in the book. When he was a priest, he had a brief consensual homosexual relationship with an adult in the 70s. It didn't come out until many decades later, and he said he believes it was a sin because it violated his vow of celibacy. So, the man may not be a Saint, but he was in some key places at some key times in the life of the Church, both in general as the head of a key religious order who had frequent audiences with Paul VI, and then later as the bishop of a diocese who was a member of the United States Council of Catholic Bishops, at a time where he could still see what it was like when it was established, and then he could see what became of it over the years. It's an interesting read.

Here is a priest (unrelated to the above) who resigned as a matter of conscience over the tightening of the screws (to use a metaphor) on the issue of women priests:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/femclrg2.htm

In his letter, he mentions a book he wrote where he make an argument in favor of female priests, which was given an imprimatur by the Church in the 70s.
 
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Davidnic

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I'm in Myrtle Beach so I don't have access to my library or much uninterrupted time. But I think we can cordially, as the two, of us always do...have a deep discussion on this in a week or so. I don't base my agreement with the impossibility on jpII and and Pope Francis alone. But it is...impossible according to dogma and a few other things.

Posting right now as kids wash sand off...have a sunset rosary by the ocean With my little girl on the way.
 
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Godlovesmetwo

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Time to apply the FAB rule on this thread which awards the winner of the debate to the longest post. And I see that Fish and Bread has the longest post. Congrats Fish! Yet again, your long posts establish superiority.
 
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Godlovesmetwo

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it's like getting mad at the Sun for not rising in a different direction and not being purple.
But can't we dream David? Imagine that someday things will change. Change for the better?
 
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Shiloh Raven

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But can't we dream David? Imagine that someday things will change. Change for the better?

I can dream. I have no doubt that my opinion will be unpopular among more traditional religious people, but I look forward to the day when the millennials take over and they can hopefully eliminate all the old societal mindsets (racial, patriarchal, religious) that promote suppression and discrimination against women, minorities and LGBT. I am proud of my generation, Generation X, for helping to pave the way for the millennials to finally finish the task. The baby boomer generation will come to an end in the next few years and hopefully so will all of its old societal mindsets. Reform will always come in one way or another. It is inevitable and unavoidable as society and the world changes.
 
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Davidnic

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But can't we dream David? Imagine that someday things will change. Change for the better?

If there was anyway I could tell my daughter, who already loves the Eucharist, that one day she could be called to confect it....I would.

My thought is...since it is impossible...its better to focus on all of the possible things.

No sent certa dogma has ever changed. Because no one; Pope or Council has the authority to do it.
 
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Fish and Bread

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I'm in Myrtle Beach so I don't have access to my library or much uninterrupted time. But I think we can cordially, as the two, of us always do...have a deep discussion on this in a week or so. I don't base my agreement with the impossibility on jpII and and Pope Francis alone. But it is...impossible according to dogma and a few other things.

Posting right now as kids wash sand off...have a sunset rosary by the ocean With my little girl on the way.

Enjoy the beach! :)

Though we disagree from time to time, I usually enjoy our discussions because you are very well-informed, diplomatic, and cordial. You're of course welcome to revive this thread when you get back and have more time. I probably wouldn't want to argue about women's ordination at length while I was at the beach either. ;) It's important to take time to enjoy life and relax from time to time. :)
 
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tadoflamb

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I can dream. I have no doubt that my opinion will be unpopular among more traditional religious people, but I look forward to the day when the millennials take over and they can hopefully eliminate all the old societal mindsets (racial, patriarchal, religious) that promote suppression and discrimination against women, minorities and LGBT. I am proud of my generation, Generation X, for helping to pave the way for the millennials to finally finish the task. The baby boomer generation will come to an end in the next few years and hopefully so will all of its old societal mindsets. Reform will always come in one way or another. It is inevitable and unavoidable as society and the world changes.

If your dream is to change the Catholic Church, let me tell you, you can't change her from the outside.

For a Church that is positively occupied by women, I have a hard time believing that they're suppressed by the Church.

I'll start with my wife...

"Oh Dear! Did you know the Catholic Church is suppressing you?"

I'll work on the church ladies I'll be seeing at mass this week next.

Wait a minute.........

As a married man, I can't be a priest either.

Help! Help! I'm being suppressed!
 
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Paidiske

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