Reconciling coniugal devotion and an open heart

[Peripatetic]

my experience was that as long as I focused only on her, devoted myself to her entirely, even in the career and hobby choices I have made, the thoughts you are talking about never appeared.

I don't see this as practical for two reasons:

1. A person needs balance in his life. The type of constant attention to one person would be smothering. Even when you are married, it's important to have time away, different interests, friends, etc.

2. The "thoughts" you are talking about just don't go away. We are always going to be tempted. The proper way to deal with temptation is not silence it, but to avoid (or flee from) the situations that cause it.

I haven't read your other threads, but it sounds like you have a career or hobby that directly has to do with attractive women and you are trying to see if you can keep it but shift your desires into friendly indifference. Most men would not be able to do that.

Nevertheless, I am curious about your last statement. "Not everyone is wired to stay committed to just one woman" - are you talking about this from a religious standpoint or merely from worldly experience? Because if you're talking about it from a religious standpoint, I would like to know what God would like such people to do. Become priests?

Both. 1 Corinthians 7:8-9 reads, "Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion."

So you see, being unmarried (as Paul was) is a good thing! Nothing wrong with it. If you are the type of person that is very extroverted and wants to have close friendships with different attractive woman, single life may be for you. But if you start to burn with passion, you should choose one woman as your wife and be dedicated to her... you can't have it both ways unless you want to live a life of worldly pleasure. Just know that if you go that route, you will always feel an emptiness and will never find true contentment.

 

[CuddlyBear]

This is an idealistic way to look at it, but my wife and I don't see it that way. We both agree that we are somewhere in the middle of the attractiveness scale, and only going downward as we age. We both know people who are more attractive in real life, and see them just about every time we watch TV.

I don't think it is idealistic. I can recognise that someone is good-looking in the cultural sense (i.e. the people on TV) but that doesn't necessarily make them more attractive. The way my husband explained it is that it's a package thing. The attractiveness is the whole person as well as the packaging. The packaging is merely superficial so the person on the whole is more attractive than anyone else because of who they are. I believe it is well acknowledged that when someone is appealing to us in their personality, their physical self appears more attractive to us as well. Hence you don't actually have to be the most beautiful to be perceived as the most beautiful. This is getting a bit off topic though.

OP - it sounds like you are able to love your partner rather than that you are 'in love' with them. I may be wrong but that is how one of your posts recently came across to me. I see you trying to make sense of your feelings and wonder if it would help to talk things through with a counselor who is there to focus on what is going on for you and help you make sense of things?

 

[ClosetoDeath]

I don't see this as practical for two reasons:
1. A person needs balance in his life. The type of constant attention to one person would be smothering. Even when you are married, it's important to have time away, different interests, friends, etc.

Does the Bible ever mention anything about this kind of balance? I mean, who says it's important? Don't you think it's more of a socially accepted standard? Many people with a vocation (including people chosing monastic life, chastity, etc.) do not have that balance.

2. The "thoughts" you are talking about just don't go away. We are always going to be tempted. The proper way to deal with temptation is not silence it, but to avoid (or flee from) the situations that cause it.

Speaking from experience, they went away with the specific mindset I summoned through prayers. However, it is very difficult to achieve, and I think the greatest obstacle is that it lacks social acceptance (i.e. people would often wonder whether I am weird). Personally though I was absolutely comfortable with it, and made me really feel a high level of "spiritual connectedness" even when I was around hundreds of attractive women.

Yes, I would say the only practical problem I saw with it was that it made me look a bit strange.

 

[ClosetoDeath]

I believe it is well acknowledged that when someone is appealing to us in their personality, their physical self appears more attractive to us as well. Hence you don't actually have to be the most beautiful to be perceived as the most beautiful. This is getting a bit off topic though.

Isn't this mostly rethorics? I mean, of course, if I include everything "as a whole", yes I am "attracted" to my woman. But I wouldn't call that a constant state of sexual desire for her.
Also, I am a very objective and reasoning person, so for a wide range of behaviors my mind is my heart.
While I can clearly say that she's my "significant other" or "part of me" and that kind of metaphors, on an objectively comparative level I can admit that I have female friends (since before I knew her) who are 10 times more attractive than her.

OP - it sounds like you are able to love your partner rather than that you are 'in love' with them. I may be wrong but that is how one of your posts recently came across to me. I see you trying to make sense of your feelings and wonder if it would help to talk things through with a counselor who is there to focus on what is going on for you and help you make sense of things?

I wouldn't come to this forum if I trusted a counselor Long background why I don't trust them, partly because I myself have an education in advanced psychology and some of my best mates are in that industry. I turned to religion after a very science-based lifestyle, for a very complex reasons and individual and unique life path, and what I might actually do is talk to a spiritual leader about this (priest or so), but I would also appreciate hearing your ideas and advice.

For example, you say that I am able to love her rather than "in love". Are you talking about this in a negative way? In my understanding, it's better to love (active process) than to be "in love" (passive state). Does that make sense to you?

 

[CuddlyBear]

For example, you say that I am able to love her rather than "in love". Are you talking about this in a negative way? In my understanding, it's better to love (active process) than to be "in love" (passive state). Does that make sense to you?

No, I certainly don't mean that in a negative way. But loving someone and being 'in love' can be different states or they can go together. Sometimes you can be in love and actions not show love, or dislike someone yet still love them through action. Not sure if that makes it clearer

I suppose if I look at my husband in the context of societal standards of beauty I can see he isn't going to be considered attractive in the same way a Hollywood actor would be. But I don't compare him and when I see him, to me he is the most handsome, sexy man in the world. I know he feels the same towards me. Maybe it doesn't work this way for some people but that is how it works with us and I can't imagine it being any other way.

I do understand the reluctance to find a counselor as I feel the same for my own reasons. A good counselor can be worth talking to though if you're willing to look for the right one. I'm also unlikely to talk to a pastor unless I know them well. It just sounded to me like you're working through your thoughts on this issue. I'm happy to give my opinion but I haven't quite pinpointed exactly what you're after yet so might be missing your point with my responses.

 

[wonderwaleye]

This question is crucially related to my other post and I would really, really, really urgently appreciate some ideas inspired by religion.

In what ways can a man fully devote himself to his woman, while at the same time do good and take interest in other human beings?

Description of Problem:
working and socializing with many people = natural overexposure to more attractive women = biased behavior.

What I mean is that when I meet other attractive women, I always feel temptation. In order to avoid it I must avoid contact with them. But that goes against the value of loving everyone (in a Christian sense) and being impartial. And it also compromises my job...

I am in my mid-20s and am fervently devoted to following through with my values, and one of them is commitment in love. I feel there might be a solution which allows me to be social and devoted at the same time.
But I have no idea where to start.

How about thanking GOD for the beauty you see in your eyes and being with and enjoying them as you would anyone else.

Remove all your evil thoughts.

steven

 

[CuddlyBear]

I'm not sure why it's not possible to relate to individuals of either gender just as people without the sexual tension? They are just people.

 

[wayfaring man]

There is a line that should not be crossed...for crossing it will lead to loss and regret.

Sometimes it's easy to stay back from that line...and sometimes we find we have to walk that line for a little while.

Which requires good balance...which comes from weighing both short term and long term considerations equally.

Inevitably, when one gives as much weight to considering the long term as they do the short...the long wins out every time.

For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? <-----> Mark 8:36

Being tempted is part of the human experience...enduring well and overcoming temptation is part of the experience of being quickened by Christ's Spirit.

Blessed is the man that endures temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. <-----> James 1:12

There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. <-----> 1st Corinthians 10:13

Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak. <-----> Mark 14:38

And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work: <-----> 2nd Corinthians 9:8

Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. <-----> Philippians 4:8

Rebuke not an elder, but entreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren;
The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity. <-----> 1st Timothy 5:1+2

Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you. <-----> Philippians 4:9

May The Lord Be Pleased !

wm

 

[plmarquette]

are you married?
some of this stops after the honeymoon...
if spouse helps take off the edge of lonliless and affection
resistance at office takes on a new meaning....don't want what already have

if not married stay focused, stay busy, don't stare / fantisise....avoid adult web sites and adult magazines, make it worse...

 

[ClosetoDeath]

Sometimes you can be in love and actions not show love, or dislike someone yet still love them through action. Not sure if that makes it clearer

Sure, but I never said I dislike her.

But I don't compare him and when I see him, to me he is the most handsome, sexy man in the world.

I also don't go comparing her all the time to others I just write about it for the sake of my pondering. I would say that I can completely lock my eyes on her and would feel completely heads over heels for the individual she is. But I completely detach this from the "sexyness". I am not attached to her specific physical traits, but to our common journey through life, so to say

I'm happy to give my opinion but I haven't quite pinpointed exactly what you're after yet so might be missing your point with my responses.

In essence, all I am asking is:
If I fear that an aspect of my lifestyle can lead me to situations that can threaten my commitment to this relationship, doesn't it make sense to avoid such situations altogether? Or change that aspect?
I have changed it for almost one year, but recent thoughts and friends' advice are doubting my logic. Most importantly, my friends feel that I should prioritize my lifestyle choice above love, whereas I feel that I should prioritize love and tailor my lifestyle accordingly. My question is also whether Christianity would also encourage to put love above the choices of lifestyle.

I could ask the same question with a different stint:
If you are extremely attractive and fear that others may tempt you because of your attractiveness, would you work on making yourself unattractive (or hiding your attractiveness), for the sake of love?

 

[Peripatetic]

I could ask the same question with a different stint:
If you are extremely attractive and fear that others may tempt you because of your attractiveness, would you work on making yourself unattractive (or hiding your attractiveness), for the sake of love?

No. If your relationship has trust, you don't need to change yourself, nor should she. If people flirt with you or show interest, it is your responsibility to respect your relationship by not showing interest or flirting back. You haven't been specific about your "lifestyle choice", but if it's trouble... you aren't going to make it harmless by some change in your mindset or appearance.

 

[Johnnz]

In response to you last question, basically no. We cannot live our lives confined by others, although we do need to act responsibly towards them of course.

John
NZ

 

[CuddlyBear]

I think I can answer that question since evidence suggests I am still somewhat attractive to some people. As a married woman I am polite to men who show me interest but I do not encourage them. I would not change the way I look to avoid such attention as there is nothing about my appearance that solicits such attention in a way that makes it negative and I'm not interested in anyone else than my husband. I can have friendly relationships with men though, nothing wrong with that.

As for changing jobs, I suppose if it's going to cause problems in your marriage I might look at it but that's not a situation I can really relate to personally.

 

[ClosetoDeath]

In response to you last question, basically no. We cannot live our lives confined by others, although we do need to act responsibly towards them of course.

John
NZ

I would appreciate a more religion/Bible/Christianity-based answer to the last question.

 

[ClosetoDeath]

No. If your relationship has trust, you don't need to change yourself, nor should she. If people flirt with you or show interest, it is your responsibility to respect your relationship by not showing interest or flirting back. You haven't been specific about your "lifestyle choice", but if it's trouble... you aren't going to make it harmless by some change in your mindset or appearance.

<---- In my experience, it has.

Please, if you say "Yes" or "No" to my question, could you please back up with a reason, preferably related to religion/Bible/Christianity?

I agree that love is based on trust, but trust is not built on castles in the air. It has foundations, and to me it seems obvious that by sacrificing or giving up a behavior that naturally gets me into situations that can potentially destroy the trust, I create such a foundation.

If attractiveness is the root of temptation (which, in turn, could be pinpointed as the cause of bad relationships), why not destroy that before anything else?


Sorry if I'm a bit persistent, but I'm looking for some... mmm logical reasoning (or theological reasoning)... rather than personal experience. Please forgive me if I am too complex in explaining myself.

 

[CuddlyBear]

OK - I say 'no, I won't change myself' because, as scripture says, I am busy working out my own salvation and I see nothing wrong with how I dress in light of scripture. If someone is aroused by my being dressed in clothing I would happily wear to church on a Sunday when serving then they have something they need to work through, it's not my issue. As far as scriptural principles about not putting a stumbling block in the path of another, I am not doing that so I am clear in my conscience that I am not doing anything that would provide temptation to another. I dress modestly but unless I wear a sack to camoflague my shape, I can't help it if someone thinks I look good.

 

[Peripatetic]

Ok, you want logic?

Doing X = Girlfriend problem.
Not Doing X = No Girlfriend problem.
Doing X + behavior or appearance change = Unknown (may or may not be girlfriend problem).

Friends: Doing X > Girlfriend.
You: Girlfriend > Doing X.

Therefore, the logical "best" answer is this:

If Girlfriend > Doing X then Don't Do X.

Otherwise, you're asking for advice on whether behavior or appearance changes will help, but we cannot answer that without knowing what X actually IS. How could we?

 

[Johnnz]

I would appreciate a more religion/Bible/Christianity-based answer to the last question.

That's what you got. We live in a fallen world. There are many people out there who don't live by biblical values, including some who attend church regularly. I am responsible to live my life before God amongst such people. I cannot limit how I chose to live and work out my Christian values based on where someone else is at. Yes, I must be lovingly responsible and be aware of the weaker brother in some situations. But the Christian community cannot be limited to an expression of our faith defined by the limits of the most vulnerable.

I won't avoid women's company because some may have wrong values or motives. I am responsible to honour my marriage vows and Christian standards. If I suspect or can see a woman has wrong intentions I will either leave her alone of tell her directly where I stand.

John
NZ

 

[ClosetoDeath]

If Girlfriend > Doing X then Don't Do X.

Otherwise, you're asking for advice on whether behavior or appearance changes will help, but we cannot answer that without knowing what X actually IS. How could we?

Well, by "changes" I just meant "Don't do X".

X, in my case, has been making friends or socializing with new women.

In my specific case, for almost a year I have been completely avoiding any interaction with other women who don't fall under the following categories:
- my family (parents) and relatives
- best friends whom I already know
- family, relatives and best friends of the woman I love
- any woman whose acquaintance is correlated with improving my life with the woman I love, our common family life, etc.

My friends think this is crazy.

 

[ClosetoDeath]

OK - I say 'no, I won't change myself' because, as scripture says, I am busy working out my own salvation and I see nothing wrong with how I dress in light of scripture. If someone is aroused by my being dressed in clothing I would happily wear to church on a Sunday when serving then they have something they need to work through, it's not my issue. As far as scriptural principles about not putting a stumbling block in the path of another, I am not doing that so I am clear in my conscience that I am not doing anything that would provide temptation to another. I dress modestly but unless I wear a sack to camoflague my shape, I can't help it if someone thinks I look good.

Sure, you're talking about situations in which you might tempt others (unwillingly). But what about situations in which you might be tempted by others. Would you avoid those, if you knew what causes them?