Reconciling coniugal devotion and an open heart

[ClosetoDeath]

This question is crucially related to my other post and I would really, really, really urgently appreciate some ideas inspired by religion.

In what ways can a man fully devote himself to his woman, while at the same time do good and take interest in other human beings?

Description of Problem:
working and socializing with many people = natural overexposure to more attractive women = biased behavior.

What I mean is that when I meet other attractive women, I always feel temptation. In order to avoid it I must avoid contact with them. But that goes against the value of loving everyone (in a Christian sense) and being impartial. And it also compromises my job...

I am in my mid-20s and am fervently devoted to following through with my values, and one of them is commitment in love. I feel there might be a solution which allows me to be social and devoted at the same time.
But I have no idea where to start.

 

[Kaitlin08]

First of all: take a deep breath. Something is wrong if you are so worked up about this that you REALLY REALLY REALLY URGENTLY need help, and it is strange to describe work-related interaction as having anything to do with love or taking interest in others. It seems like you are not thinking clearly about the differences between romantic love and agape love, and it might be that you find it intoxicating to dwell on thoughts that you know are wrong. This is what Paul talked about when he said, throughout Romans, that sin took the opportunity afforded by the commandment, to make him desire what should not be desirable.

Because he saw that the Law engenders sinful desires in people, Paul turned to grace as an alternative to the Law. Grace, which enables a person to think actively of the well-being of other people, creates an opportunity for a person's desires to change; the Law, which focuses on the negative, the prohibition, cannot do this.

Ask that God would increase his grace in you, and remind yourself of the special things you have with your partner. Think more consciously of what attracts you to her. Is it the color of her hair, the thickness of her hair? The softness of her skin? The shape of her breasts? It's okay to have these kinds of thoughts about her. Think of the things you've done together that the women at your workplace haven't shared with you. Do you cook together? Have you gone skiing? Do you still go out on date nights? Bonding is important...

 

[Johnnz]

Beauty and attractiveness evoke natural responses with each of us, whatever its source - a person, a landscape, a painting etc. An attractive woman is ... well ... attractive. But our response to that must go beyond mere sexual interest. A beautiful woman is not necessarily a better woman in other areas; character is independent of physical attributes. Nor will she necessarily be better sexually.

Marriage is a commitment. You do not allow sexual fantasy to get established. To acknowledge a woman is very pretty is fine. To think beyond that isn't.

John
NZ

 

[ClosetoDeath]

Thank you for your replies.

Kaitlin08, I don't mean work as in the job environment, but my overall mission in life, which is related to who I am and what type of profession I chose. I will try a simpler way to explain:
I have a very social and outgoing personality, so I am naturally used to meeting many people and spending time with many people, and this includes women. At a certain point in time I felt that this was an obstacle to devoting time to the woman I love (or as you call it, "bonding"), and in many indirect ways I also felt that my interest and passion never remains on her when I constantly meet other interesting people.
So I decided to devote myself only to her and completely sever all other interaction (except with my best friends), and sometimes I feel this is what God wants me to do.

Yet after discussing with my friends and thinking a bit on my own, I noticed that it is important to have an open mind and an open heart, explore the world, discover new people, new opportunities. This is all indirectly also connected to my career.

Personally, I think that I am perfectly able to love her even if I don't see or hear from her for months, while traveling in some distant land. Yet I don't know how this can fit with the Christian idea of love, in addition to the fact that according to modern social standards, a relationship with little devotion/bonding/exclusiveness is almost like no relationship.

Johnnz, I know that there's a rule. Yet I'm trying to understand the divine logic / theology behind that. How can it be coniugal devotion if, e.g. we never see each other, and at the same time I meet thousands of different women, whom I interact with, bond with, socialize with and create deeper friendships with?

I'm asking more than simply labeling "marriage/love" and "acquaintances/friends", because logically speaking, anyone can be more interesting and bonding than a person I don't see.

If this sounds too theoretical (and I am looking for an answer to such question), I will also make a practical example: Imagine the woman you love is in another country, there's no internet, there's no way of communicating with her until she returns and you don't know when she returns. Meanwhile, would it make sense to interact with other women, or would it be better to avoid taking interest in others altogether?

 

[Hipsterz]

Work with men. Jobs such as those on oil rigs should help you to control your urges.

 

[Johnnz]

Your life style is not that conducive to marital intimacy. Maybe that requires some serious reflection.

We can and should interact sensibly with other people, and since 50% of the human race is female, that will inevitably require female interaction. Some female friends prefer talking with me rather than my wife, others are more comfortable with me on some topics and my wife with others, and vice versa with some men and my wife. That's fine with both of us. It's when a friendship detracts from a marriage in some way, such as working against intimacy or involving inordinate amounts of time, that there are grounds for concern. Or, if there is some romantic component.

John
NZ

 

[Kaitlin08]

I think you'll be able to appreciate your wife more if you create a little distance between you. Relying on her to be everything to you can be emotionally taxing and it could lead to her feeling closed in; interacting with other people shouldn't be a cause for concern unless, as Johnnz said, you find yourself going to other women for the close emotional support you would most often have from your wife.

 

[Peripatetic]

It is certainly possible to be friendly in a professional or generally social way. The difference is when you decide to treat the attractive girl differently then you would the unattractive one. If you find yourself turning on the charm or starting to act flirtatious, that is not respectful to the person to whom you are devoted. A general rule of thumb is this: don't pursue a relationship of any kind (including friendship) if you have an attraction. Be friendly, yes, but keep it at a distance.

Most work place and social environments don't have that many attractive people to tempt us... and there are plenty of interesting, inspiring, wonderful people who can influence us and befriend us without any sexual attraction. And for the attractive ones: you shouldn't have to avoid contact altogether. Just don't pursue it. If you find that can't help it, you probably aren't ready for commitment.

 

[ClosetoDeath]

The difference is when you decide to treat the attractive girl differently then you would the unattractive one.
[...]
A general rule of thumb is this: don't pursue a relationship of any kind (including friendship) if you have an attraction. Be friendly, yes, but keep it at a distance.

But see, these two phrases contradict each other (what if I make a best friend who might be more attractive than the woman I am devoted to?), and this is exactly what I feel hampers me. I am avoiding genuine friendship with some women just because they are more attractive than the woman I am devoted to, and somehow that doesn't feel right/fair.

I am really not asking how to avoid temptation, but in general (sexual, non-sexual, etc.) the fact that I expect my previous supersocial activities to keep me distracted from my main relationship.

I am ready to sacrifice anything for the sake of my woman, but I am just asking about the alternative possibilities, compromises, anything, as long as it won't harm my devotion towards her.

 

[ClosetoDeath]

I think you'll be able to appreciate your wife more if you create a little distance between you. Relying on her to be everything to you can be emotionally taxing and it could lead to her feeling closed in;

I don't understand what this has to do with my question...

interacting with other people shouldn't be a cause for concern unless, as Johnnz said, you find yourself going to other women for the close emotional support you would most often have from your wife.

This hasn't ever happened, but I fear it happening, out of mere knowledge of my self (my previous lifestyles, personality, etc.), experience of other people who have my personality, knowledge about world, etc.
And one of the first things that I felt that I learned through my prayers (please see my other topic "Faith, psychopathy...") was that by limiting my attention and focus to...
a) the woman I love and
b) all my other passions in life except for social interaction with women
...I developed a much greater empathy and understanding of the specific woman I love, rather than women in general.

In case this might be wrong (if it is possible to develop empathy even if I socialize with other women) I am simply fearing the possibility that such an event might occur.

I am asking, preventively, what you would suggest me to do in case that should happen. Shouldn't that be the trigger to stop interacting with the other woman of interest?

 

[ClosetoDeath]

Your life style is not that conducive to marital intimacy. Maybe that requires some serious reflection.

I work as a promoter and public relator in the leisure and tourism sector. We meet new people all the time and we all enjoy this. And we travel all the time. The downside is that I feel that almost everyone who has this kind of massive interaction with numerous people are unable to commit. This is an impresssion as an observer. Almost all my colleagues are having new lovers every 2 weeks. So I am scared to somehow get involved too much with them.

At the same time, my prayers have suggested me to take an entirely different path altogether, such as changing to a very similar job (with the same tasks and skills) but that is related to the woman I am devoted to.
e.g. she's still studying but will soon start work, too. I could find something related to her, maybe a position in her same company, or that assists her profession, or anything related to her family, etc.
But most of my friends say this would be a waste to my talent and skills.

 

[Peripatetic]

The difference is when you decide to treat the attractive girl differently then you would the unattractive one.
[...]
A general rule of thumb is this: don't pursue a relationship of any kind (including friendship) if you have an attraction. Be friendly, yes, but keep it at a distance.

But see, these two phrases contradict each other (what if I make a best friend who might be more attractive than the woman I am devoted to?)

No, they weren't meant to contradict each other. You use one to determine the other. If you can't view an attractive woman with friendly indifference, and find yourself wanting to get to know her better... then you should treat her differently. That is to say, you should not give into the temptation. If you pursue the friendship, it will only get worse.

 

[CuddlyBear]

It is fine to recognise people are attractive but there shouldn't be anything sexual in this. Your query about if you befriend a 'more attractive than your partner' woman also makes me wonder. If you are truly devoted then I don't think you will be tempted and your woman will be the most beautiful in the world in your own eyes. True love and devotion would also make you not want to be away for extended times - or such is the experience of my husband. I know we're all different but this is how I see it. I meet a lot of different people too but they would never be more than friendly meetings. My eyes are only for my husband and he feels the same way. If he didn't, our relationship wouldn't exist. I know different people accept different things in their relationships and it may not be problematic for yours. It just wouldn't be in mine.

 

[ClosetoDeath]

No, they weren't meant to contradict each other. You use one to determine the other. If you can't view an attractive woman with friendly indifference, and find yourself wanting to get to know her better... then you should treat her differently. That is to say, you should not give into the temptation. If you pursue the friendship, it will only get worse.

All this comes across to me as painfully limiting, and potentially destructive against my personality, as well as my idea of getting to know everyone better, even for the sake of human love and an open, social mind, as well as my career (where establishing friends is vital).

It is difficult to explain the circumstances, and since I truly am looking for an urgent, urgent solution, I will try asking a more simple and useful question, related to text I underlined:
HOW can I view an attractive woman with friendly indifference?
(this is not a rhetoric question)

What I mean is: is it possible to do become indifferent to sexual attractiveness in a natural way, without resorting to neither meditation nor self-punishing or reward-system-based thoughts?
Or do you think one needs to use artificial gates around an artificial territory, beyond which we should block our behavior?

 

[ClosetoDeath]

Your query about if you befriend a 'more attractive than your partner' woman also makes me wonder. If you are truly devoted then I don't think you will be tempted and your woman will be the most beautiful in the world in your own eyes.

I may not sound romantic, but I am a very objective person, and I have to say that I feel she is quite unattractive compared to other women. I love her with all my heart, my mind, and will submit to her physically. I will strip every organ and sacrifice every drop of blood for her, she is the most important woman in the world to me, but to my eyes she is not that attractive.

As you can imagine, by avoiding any interaction with other women (especially who are more attractive), the main result is that she is literally the only woman in my life.

True love and devotion would also make you not want to be away for extended times - or such is the experience of my husband. I know we're all different but this is how I see it. I meet a lot of different people too but they would never be more than friendly meetings. My eyes are only for my husband and he feels the same way. If he didn't, our relationship wouldn't exist. I know different people accept different things in their relationships and it may not be problematic for yours. It just wouldn't be in mine.

I think a major difference is that I, personally, have a very religious and spiritual idea of love. For many people, there is always attraction before love, but we started as very best friends and my idea of seeing her as the woman of my life grew over time. So I detach attraction from love, focus more on affection, friendship, our "ideological connectedness" and so on.
This is also why I am looking for a more biblical/religious approach to my problem, rather than a "modern life experience"-based one.

What I have thought and done so far is basically:
"If our exclusive love is principally platonic/spiritual/friendly and not based on attraction, it makes sense to avoid any other interaction that may lead to substituting those areas (unless it is her friends or related to her)."
(this is also what I feel that God wants me to do)

I hope this is not too philosophical. My friends are fed up with discussing these things with me, that's why I am feeling so helpless and without guidance.

 

[Peripatetic]

What I mean is: is it possible to do become indifferent to sexual attractiveness in a natural way, without resorting to neither meditation nor self-punishing or reward-system-based thoughts?

I think your answer is right there in the question. Sexual attraction IS natural, so there is no natural way to repress all of it. Prayer will help some. Discipline will help some. But there is a very good reason why Paul uses the word "flee" when instructing us about sexual temptation. That's not the answer you wanted to hear, but it is what the Bible teaches.

Now let me be clear: I'm not saying to do some kind of legalistic looking away every time an attractive girl walks by. But "friendly indifference" is not something you can force. If you feel attraction when you are with someone, or think about her when you're driving home... that's the time to distance yourself.

If you feel that this is too limiting or not in keeping with your personality, perhaps you should remain single. Not everyone is wired to be committed to just one woman.

 

[ClosetoDeath]

Peripatetic
One of the things I feel led me closer to religion is its ability to help us "transcend" from or set a direction to our nature. Before doubts started creeping in (as I described in the forum post "Faith, psychopathy and the woman I love"), my experience was that as long as I focused only on her, devoted myself to her entirely, even in the career and hobby choices I have made, the thoughts you are talking about never appeared. My imagination was not filled with "dirty pictures" and other types of random fantasies.

This also is why I am considering to permanently change my career path for the sake of love, which to me is more important than our human nature or any other law.

Nevertheless, I am curious about your last statement. "Not everyone is wired to stay committed to just one woman" - are you talking about this from a religious standpoint or merely from worldly experience? Because if you're talking about it from a religious standpoint, I would like to know what God would like such people to do. Become priests?

 

[Peripatetic]

If you are truly devoted then I don't think you will be tempted and your woman will be the most beautiful in the world in your own eyes.

This is an idealistic way to look at it, but my wife and I don't see it that way. We both agree that we are somewhere in the middle of the attractiveness scale, and only going downward as we age. We both know people who are more attractive in real life, and see them just about every time we watch TV.

But we are completely fine with that! If we're in a restaurant and the waitress or waiter is really attractive, we'll both comment on it without any hint of jealousy. We have complete trust, and although we love each other's looks, it goes deeper than just surface - and I think that's what you are getting at. But it doesn't mean that we stop looking.

You may think that I'm sending mixed signals here, but I see it as two very different things. My wife and I are both people watchers and we both appreciate attractive people when we see them. But that is very different from pursuing a relationship with one of them. I am not respecting my wife if I go to happy hour and seek out an attractive co-worker to get to know her better. To what end? It's usually either vanity ("I still have it") or selfish pleasure ("getting attention from a good looking woman makes you feel good"). Either way, you'll end up wanting more, which will never end well.

 

[ClosetoDeath]

I am not respecting my wife if I go to happy hour and seek out an attractive co-worker to get to know her better. To what end? It's usually either vanity ("I still have it") or selfish pleasure ("getting attention from a good looking woman makes you feel good"). Either way, you'll end up wanting more, which will never end well.

Of course, in this type of cases you're right.

But put attractiveness last. Let's say you're interested in e.g. photography and haven't met anyone with that same hobby in ages. You meet someone, and they happen to be attractive.

Wouldn't it make sense (logically) to pursue a genuine friendship with them?

 

[Johnnz]

Natural attraction is fine. You shouldn't attempt to suppress or deny that. But once there is some specifically sexual reaction within you that's when your values must kick in.

John
NZ