Rapture Question

[Hismessenger]

That's what I have been trying to get across but he can't see it for the blinders on his own eyes. Those who are already dead who died in Christ are the ones who come with him. They are not raptured for if it were the case then the rapture would be happening for eons before the second coming of Christ. The second coming is the key. No one is taken until many things have been fulfilled and then comes the end. The day of redemption is when the rapture happens . Those who hold to a pretrib rapture will not hear this for it negates a false belief that the church is gone before the tribulation. After many scriptures posted to show this, they still hold to a false assumption which is a doctrine started by man. Not in line with what the word actually says.

Is John Brown, wanted for murder or is John Brown wanted, for murder. Such is the case for the pretrib rapture theory. The rapture is real and does occur but it isn't until the last day . It all goes to how you interpret what is being said and in what time frame you are looking at what was said. Is John Brown wanted because he commited a murder or is he wanted to commit a murder. It is in the wording and punctuation.

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that [it shall be] for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these [things] shall be finished.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

These two verses along with numerous others give credence to the time line of the rapture being at the end of time.This declaration is shown in Dan 12:7

hismessenger

 

[Hismessenger]

I keep coming back to one issue. The Bible states that the "anti-christ" can't be revealed until the restrainer is removed. If that restrainer is, and I believe it is, the Holy Spirit and since the Lord says that the Holy Spirit will never leave you, then we would have to be removed from the scene before the tribulation along with the Holy Spirit. This is definitely not a salvation issue, so if you want to talk it over more, I'll be waiting for you when you get there.
Randy

The scripture never identifies directly who the restrainer is but there is an indication in the word of who it could be. I just recently came across this in relation to the thread.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

hismessenger

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

YouTube - Rapture and Left Behind

 

[get it right]

Who is it that restrains the man of lawlessness until taken out of the way and the lawless one revealed.
Could the one who restrains the man of lawlessness be the one who upholds the law – believing Israel who is taken out of the way for a time and times and half a time, the same time as the reign of the lawless one.

Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

It's interisting that the revealing of the lawless one, the casting down of satan, the catching up of the bride and believing Israel being taken out of the way, are all close together.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Who is it that restrains the man of lawlessness until taken out of the way and the lawless one revealed.
Could the one who restrains the man of lawlessness be the one who upholds the law – believing Israel who is taken out of the way for a time and times and half a time, the same time as the reign of the lawless one.

Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

It's interisting that the revealing of the lawless one, the casting down of satan, the catching up of the bride and believing Israel being taken out of the way, are all close together.

The church is the one whom Paul is talking to and referring to when he says "our gathering together unto him" which is the departure of the church.

I don't think that the woman restrains the devil in any way but she is certainly taken away into the wilderness (which could be symbolic) out of the reach of the devil.

Rev 9 shows the 144,000 of Israel who are sealed and protected at that time on earth during the reign of the devil but unharmed.

The church is the one who has been given power and authority over the devil by Jesus.

And yes, all of that happens at basically the same time.

 

[get it right]

The church is the one whom Paul is talking to and referring to when he says "our gathering together unto him" which is the departure of the church.

I don't think that the woman restrains the devil in any way but she is certainly taken away into the wilderness (which could be symbolic) out of the reach of the devil.

Rev 9 shows the 144,000 of Israel who are sealed and protected at that time on earth during the reign of the devil but unharmed.

The church is the one who has been given power and authority over the devil by Jesus.

And yes, all of that happens at basically the same time.

And whereas many say the law is done away with, the born again don't say that, I don't anyway, and being of the law as well as of the faith the church is restraing the man of lawlessness until taken out of the way.
I suppose you could say the two witnesses Moses and Elijah represent the law (Moses) and the faith (Elijah).
Anyway just putting some things forward.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

And whereas many say the law is done away with, the born again don't say that, I don't anyway, and being of the law as well as of the faith the church is restraing the man of lawlessness until taken out of the way.
I suppose you could say the two witnesses Moses and Elijah represent the law (Moses) and the faith (Elijah).
Anyway just putting some things forward.

Yes, Malachi 4 shows Moses and Elijah...and the two witnesses do exactly what Moses and Elijah did...and Zech 4 shows them as annointed to stand by the Lord...and the NT also shows them appearing with Jesus, standing by the Lord, during the transfiguration.

And I agree, the law is not abolished. It is through the law that we are aware we are sinners.

 

[Hismessenger]

Get it right,

You say;

believing Israel who is taken out of the way for a time and times and half a time, the same time as the reign of the lawless one.

If Israel were able to to believe as you assume, then Christ would not have to come and save them'

Zec 9:15 The LORD of hosts will defend them; They shall devour and subdue with slingstones. They shall drink [and] roar as if with wine; They shall be filled [with blood] like basins, Like the corners of the altar.

Zec 12:8 In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David [shall be] like God, like the Angel of the LORD before them.

Zec 14:3 Then the LORD will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle.

They are over run by the beast until Christ comes to save them.
I'll post more scripture if you don't look for yourself.

Zec 14 is a perfect description of the end time events. Read it for yourself and don't just skim over it looking for your point of view.

hismessenger

 

[Jeshurun30]

I believe in a post-trib rapture only because I feel the great tribulation is going on now. I feel this because I have expereinced it.

In 2 Thess. 2, the Bible states clearly that the end will nto come, Christ will not return, until the Antichrist reveals himself to be standing in the holy place. I have unique beliefs about this, but I feel that is happening now. Anyway, the point is, you have to study it for yourself and use discernment, because there are all kinds of views and you need to foremost ask GOD to show you what the truth is. Because He will.

 

[Ghost air]

I believe in a post-trib rapture only because I feel the great tribulation is going on now. I feel this because I have expereinced it.

In 2 Thess. 2, the Bible states clearly that the end will nto come, Christ will not return, until the Antichrist reveals himself to be standing in the holy place. I have unique beliefs about this, but I feel that is happening now. Anyway, the point is, you have to study it for yourself and use discernment, because there are all kinds of views and you need to foremost ask GOD to show you what the truth is. Because He will.

So WHO IS the anti-Christ... ?

 

[get it right]

Get it right,

You say;

If Israel were able to to believe as you assume, then Christ would not have to come and save them'



They are over run by the beast until Christ comes to save them.
I'll post more scripture if you don't look for yourself.

Zec 14 is a perfect description of the end time events. Read it for yourself and don't just skim over it looking for your point of view.

hismessenger

No point you posting scriptures if you don't understand them.

 

[Bible2]

Biblewriter posted in message #21 of this thread:

The two long posts by Bible2 are typical examples of what I pointed
out in my previous post. He simply assumes that the various terms
for the Lord's coming that are used in the scriptures are simply
synonyms. He makes no attempt to prove this, as it is to him so
obvious that it needs no proof. Likewise, he simply assumes that
the various terms used for righteous persons used in scripture are
simply synonyms. In his opinion, this is so obvious that it needs no
proof.

But he (and other post-tribbers) are mistaken in these assumptions,
and they cannot prove they are correct, because they are not correct.

Greetings.

Note that no scripture ever teaches or requires more than one future
(to us) coming of Christ. This fact has never been proven to be
incorrect. Also, people are made righteous only through their faith in
Jesus (Romans 3:22), and everyone who has faith in Jesus is part of
the church (Ephesians 4:4-5). These facts have likewise never been
proven to be incorrect.

 

[Bible2]

get it right posted in message #22 of this thread:

What about the glorified saints coming with Christ to do battle with
the armies of the beast, rev 19, this is before the resurrection.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the
marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen,
clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called
unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me,
These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See
thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that
have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of
Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he
that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness
he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many
crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he
himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name
is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white
horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Verse 8 the saints are glorified, raptured up to Christ 1 Thess. 4 and
2 Thess 2.
Verse 14 they follow Christ out of Heaven to do battle with the
beasts armies of the world.

Greetings.

Note that Revelation 19:7-21 won't occur before the first resurrection
referred to in Revelation 20:4-6, for the first resurrection referred to
in Revelation 20:4-6 is the resurrection of the entire church at the
second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), the same second coming as
Revelation 19:7-21. There's no third coming, or resurrection of the
church before the first resurrection.

Note that the marriage doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, after
the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18, because the gathering
together of the church doesn't happen until after the tribulation
(Matthew 24:29-31). Jesus cannot come and gather together the
church until sometime after an apostasy occurs in the church and
the Antichrist commits the abomination of desolation (2 Thessalonians
2:1-4, Matthew 24:9-31). For when Jesus comes to gather together
the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8,
Revelation 19:7,20). The church will go through the reign of the
Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13).

The church will only be caught up together/gathered together as
high as the clouds to meet Jesus in the air on his way down to the
earth at his second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, 2 Thessalonians
2:1). Once the church has been caught up together/gathered
together to Jesus in the clouds, he will judge the church (Psalms
50:4-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and then marry the church (Revelation 19:7)
in the clouds before the church mounts white horses and descends
back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation
19:14) as he brings God's wrath upon the world (Revelation
19:15-21), before setting up his millennial kingdom (Revelation
20:4-6). So Jesus' second coming for the church is the same coming
as his coming with the church.

 

[Bible2]

HisdaughterJen posted in message #25 of this thread:

The second coming is the return of the Lord, the beginning of the Day
of Wrath/Day of the Lord/Millennium.

The coming on the clouds with the angels to destroy is about 3 1/2
years after the above.

Greetings.

Actually, there is no second coming of Christ before his post-
tribulation coming in Matthew 24:29-31/Revelation 19:7-21.

 

[Bible2]

HisdaughterJen posted in message #27 of this thread:

The bride is GIVEN her white robes (fine linen, bright and clean) in
the 5th seal, onwings because Rev 6 says so.

Actually, the souls of the dead martyrs in heaven in Revelation
6:9-11 are given literal white robes to wear, like the literal robe
worn by the soul of the dead Samuel in 1 Samuel 28:14. The souls
of the dead martyrs in heaven in Revelation 6:9-11 aren't yet
resurrected at that point, for the second coming has not yet
occurred at that point, and the resurrection of the church won't
happen until the second coming (1 Corinthians 15:22-23). Also, the
souls of the dead martyrs in heaven in Revelation 6:9-11 didn't get
into heaven by being raptured, for the second coming has not yet
occurred, and the rapture of the church also won't happen until the
second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). Also, the rapture won't
take anyone any higher than the clouds, to meet Jesus in the air on
his way down to the earth at his second coming (1 Thessalonians
4:15-17). The souls of the dead martyrs in heaven in Revelation
6:9-11 got into heaven by dying, for when Christians die their souls
go into heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23).

 

[Bible2]

get it right posted in message #36 of this thread:

The church is protected from wrath

The church is not appointed to God's wrath, but to obtain salvation
(1 Thessalonians 5:9). This means that all those in the church who
will go through the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 7:9,14,
13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4) won't be appointed to God's wrath during
that time. Nothing requires that any of the seals or trumpets of
the tribulation (Revelation chapters 6-9) are God's wrath, or that
any of the vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16) at the end of the
tribulation will be directed in any way against those in the church
who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for
Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). During the vials of God's
wrath, those in the church on the earth will go into protective
chambers which they will have built for themselves on the earth
(Isaiah 26:20).

 

[Bible2]

Randy451 posted in message #40 of this thread:

The Bible states that the "anti-christ" can't be revealed until the
restrainer is removed. If that restrainer is, and I believe it is, the
Holy Spirit and since the Lord says that the Holy Spirit will never
leave you, then we would have to be removed from the scene
before the tribulation along with the Holy Spirit.

Greetings.

Note that the Holy Spirit cannot be the restrainer of the Antichrist
who will be removed (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8), because the Holy
Spirit will still be on the earth with the church during the reign of
the Antichrist (Revelation 14:12-13). Those in Revelation 14:12-13
are Christians, and no one can be a Christian without the Spirit
(Romans 8:9), and no Christians are outside of the church (Ephesians
4:4-5).

 

[Bible2]

get it right posted in message #44 of this thread:

Who is it that restrains the man of lawlessness until taken out of
the way and the lawless one revealed.

The restrainer of the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) could be a
powerful angel, like the powerful angel who will restrain Satan at
the second coming of Jesus (Revelation 20:1-3).

get it right posted in message #44 of this thread:

Could the one who restrains the man of lawlessness be the one who
upholds the law – believing Israel who is taken out of the way for a
time and times and half a time, the same time as the reign of the
lawless one.

Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto
the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man
child.14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle,
that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is
nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of
the serpent.

It's interisting that the revealing of the lawless one, the casting
down of satan, the catching up of the bride and believing Israel
being taken out of the way, are all close together.

Note that the man-child caught up to the throne of God mid-
tribulation (Revelation 12:5-6) is believing Israel in the sense that
the man-child represents the 144,000 male-virgin Christians
(Revelation 14:4) subsequently seen before the throne of God
(Revelation 14:5), and all Christians are Israel (Romans 11:1,24).
But all Christians are also the church at the same time (Ephesians
4:4-5), so there is no dichotomy between the church and Israel;
the church is Israel (Revelation 21:9b,12b). But Christians do not
uphold the Mosaic law (Hebrews 7:18-19), but the law of Christ
(Galatians 6:2). The woman who flees into the wilderness mid-
tribulation (Revelation 12:6) is that part of the church which will
remain on the earth and hide in wilderness places from the Antichrist.

 

[Bible2]

HisdaughterJen posted in message #45 of this thread:

The church is the one whom Paul is talking to and referring to when
he says "our gathering together unto him" which is the departure of
the church.

Actually, while the church is the one whom Paul is talking to and
referring to when he says "our gathering together unto him"
(2 Thessalonians 2:1), the gathering together is not the "falling
away" (apostasia), the apostasy or departure from the faith which
must happen in the church sometime before its gathering together
(2 Thessalonians 2:3, 1 Timothy 4:1, Matthew 24:9-31).

 

[visionary]

Several things come to my mind..

God has never taken anyone out before tribulations, they all had to go through it.
Even Enoch had to go through the troubles of his generation.
Even Elijah had to go through tribulation.
Even Moses went through tribulations up to death.
Even our Lord had to go through tribulation.

Our Lord prayed...

John 17:15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.

It was like He knew what would be in the heart of the believers when faced with tribulation, and pretty much told His Father that it is not taking out of the world that they need but protection from the evil one.