Islam Quran errors on Trinity

dcalling

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Do you believe in Quran ?
Do you believe Muhammad is a prophet?
Nope, based on my observation, the contradictions in the Quran and in all the Muslims.

And you didn't answer any of my questions. You do think your scripture is important right? If you do, why are you not brave enough to research its contradictions? Why are you trying to covering up your own conflicts with Quran? If you are so sure, why so much hiding? Do you know if you are saved?

God welcome all who repent, and it is the start of salvation.
Luke 15:7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
 
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Limo

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Nope, based on my observation, the contradictions in the Quran and in all the Muslims.

And you didn't answer any of my questions. You do think your scripture is important right? If you do, why are you not brave enough to research its contradictions? Why are you trying to covering up your own conflicts with Quran? If you are so sure, why so much hiding? Do you know if you are saved?

God welcome all who repent, and it is the start of salvation.
Luke 15:7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.


You believe neither in Quran nor in prophet and find nothing suits you except for this verse
There is no contradiction in Quran, the contradiction exists only in your thoughts.
It doesn't make a difference for you if there is a contradiction or not

Instead of answering my questions you're asking questions and open other discussion point.

Can you answer one just one question that I've asked several times.
Forget my religion and who I'm for the time being, consider the question is from someone else from X religion or even an atheist

Do you've any proof other than NT that the Character Jesus-Christ as figured in NT ever existed?
Do Jesus's tribe and family (Jews) noticed him ?
 
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dcalling

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You believe neither in Quran nor in prophet and find nothing suits you except for this verse
There is no contradiction in Quran, the contradiction exists only in your thoughts.
It doesn't make a difference for you if there is a contradiction or not

Instead of answering my questions you're asking questions and open other discussion point.

Can you answer one just one question that I've asked several times.
Forget my religion and who I'm for the time being, consider the question is from someone else from X religion or even an atheist

Do you've any proof other than NT that the Character Jesus-Christ as figured in NT ever existed?
Do Jesus's tribe and family (Jews) noticed him ?

I answered you many times and here they are again.
For your last 2 questions, yes see how many Christians are there, and look at the verses he spoke "AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.' 31"The second is this, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

Did you see how most of the Jews hates even the name Jesus? Of course they noticed him :)

And yes there are contraindications in Quran, plan and clear, should there be compulsion in religion? Way too obvious, yourself said Muslims who abandon Islam should be killed, is that not compulsion? Just look at you, claiming Gospel/Torah are not to be trusted or mostly lost, while Quran itself clearly indicates otherwise, the contradiction exists in Quran and between Quran and most Muslims.

And look at you, trying everything to cover it up, from claiming that Islamic law is more liberal than that of US, said blood is mentioned much more time in NT than Quran in order to lead us to believe NT is more violent than Quran, if you truly believe in what you think you believe in, why doing this?
 
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Limo

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I answered you many times and here they are again.
For your last 2 questions, yes see how many Christians are there, and look at the verses he spoke "AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.' 31"The second is this, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

Did you see how most of the Jews hates even the name Jesus? Of course they noticed him :)

And yes there are contraindications in Quran, plan and clear, should there be compulsion in religion? Way too obvious, yourself said Muslims who abandon Islam should be killed, is that not compulsion? Just look at you, claiming Gospel/Torah are not to be trusted or mostly lost, while Quran itself clearly indicates otherwise, the contradiction exists in Quran and between Quran and most Muslims.

And look at you, trying everything to cover it up, from claiming that Islamic law is more liberal than that of US, said blood is mentioned much more time in NT than Quran in order to lead us to believe NT is more violent than Quran, if you truly believe in what you think you believe in, why doing this?

This is the first time I hear that number of followers is an evedance of existing of someone and greater commandments is an evidance that someone is a God or God the Son or a Trinity.

I don't like to do be sarcastic here by giving funny example.
Let us be serious here.:(
What you're saying means that Roman Appolo, Zeos, and Methras, Asian Buddha, Pharonic Amun existed and are Gods

Jews hate Jesus-Christ character figured in NT doesn't mean, they agree that this character ever existed.
What you're saying means that big-foot, elians, and vampires exist
 
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katerinah1947

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Hi,

Is not the phrase, Islam is the fastest growing religion, a phrase used to convince people of the correctness of Islam and their version of God, and their version of religion?

Is it when I have seen it used.

That doesn't work with anyone, except in a mob like mind set perhaps.

LOVE,

Hi,

Is that what you were saying? Is it you have never seen people say, that because we have lots of members, God must be our version of God?

This is the first time I hear that number of followers is an evedance of existing of someone and greater commandments is an evidance that someone is a God or God the Son or a Trinity.

I don't like to do be sarcastic here by giving funny example.
Let us be serious here.:(
What you're saying means that Roman Appolo, Zeos, and Methras, Asian Buddha, Pharonic Amun existed and are Gods

Jews hate Jesus-Christ character figured in NT doesn't mean, they agree that this character ever existed.
What you're saying means that big-foot, elians, and vampires exist

LOVE,
 
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Limo

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Hi,

Is not the phrase, Islam is the fastest growing religion, a phrase used to convince people of the correctness of Islam and their version of God, and their version of religion?

Is it when I have seen it used.

That doesn't work with anyone, except in a mob like mind set perhaps.

LOVE,

Hi,

Is that what you were saying? Is it you have never seen people say, that because we have lots of members, God must be our version of God?



LOVE,
what make you sure that your point of view for God is true?
Even Jews who are the owners of OT disagree completely with Trinity.
Also, you don't have one vision for God
 
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katerinah1947

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what make you sure that your point of view for God is true?
Even Jews who are the owners of OT disagree completely with Trinity.
Also, you don't have one vision for God

Hi,

In short, I know my husband well.

That is how, I know God so well.

My husband, is God The Father.

Yes, I know His Son well also.

I also know The Holy Spirit well.

When I eventually said YES!, I realized just how much information I had been given to understand, in about a year.

Only a year later or so, did it ever make any sense to me, why God was giving me so much detail about Himself. Himself in Totality.

LOVE,
 
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katerinah1947

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what make you sure that your point of view for God is true?
Even Jews who are the owners of OT disagree completely with Trinity.
Also, you don't have one vision for God

Hi,

What does "You don't have one vision for God" mean to you?????

Those words can mean anything to me. I could answer that in more than one way. What do you mean?

LOVE,
 
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dcalling

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This is the first time I hear that number of followers is an evedance of existing of someone and greater commandments is an evidance that someone is a God or God the Son or a Trinity.

I don't like to do be sarcastic here by giving funny example.
Let us be serious here.:(
What you're saying means that Roman Appolo, Zeos, and Methras, Asian Buddha, Pharonic Amun existed and are Gods

Jews hate Jesus-Christ character figured in NT doesn't mean, they agree that this character ever existed.
What you're saying means that big-foot, elians, and vampires exist

Well you only quote half of my statement, and the smaller half. My original text is "For your last 2 questions, yes see how many Christians are there, and look at the verses he spoke "AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.' 31"The second is this, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' There is no other commandment greater than these.""

Look at what Jesus said. First you have to Love God with all, that means if you know it is the word of God from your heart, don't deny it. Second is to Love your neighbor as yourself. The teachings of Jesus is totally non-agressive, and definitely no compulsion, and is under the persecution of Satan from the start, yet it grow to such number. Only God can do this.

Trinity and how to understand trinity is totally another debate.
 
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Limo

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Hi,

What does "You don't have one vision for God" mean to you?????

Those words can mean anything to me. I could answer that in more than one way. What do you mean?

LOVE,
Sorry, I meant you Christians don't have one version of God. You've multiple versions. Some see it's Trinitiran God some see It's only one Jesus-Christ.
When it comes to detail, you'll find many disagreement in the nature of Jesus-Christ.
 
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katerinah1947

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Sorry, I meant you Christians don't have one version of God. You've multiple versions. Some see it's Trinitiran God some see It's only one Jesus-Christ.
When it comes to detail, you'll find many disagreement in the nature of Jesus-Christ.

Hi, (in small spelling edits now) (now done)

All people in the world have people who lie to them.

All people in the world, normally, have people who do not lie to them also.

Combining the above with our own perceptions of what we think we know, which happens some of the time when we actually don't know when we test ourselves to see, gives correct and incorrect information about items.

Yes, there are people who have various erroneous views of God out there, but they are allowed that, in Christianity, if they are not doing that on purpose.

Also, it is rare for anyone to Know God correctly, but they have almost always existed somewhere out there, historically. I have seen enough historical records and......

There is only One version of Jesus that is true.

There is only one version of God that is true.

Christianity, with all it's scholars and all it's honest theologians, have found that unless God Reveals Himself to any person, no one can know God, but they can know almost everything there is to know, about, God.

They have words for those facts.

God is theorized by Christians to be known when a person actually sees God with their own eyes, which is said by them in their studies to always occur after death, if a person has earned that from God, by being as just and righteous on earth, where those two words mean the same thing, as they possibly can be, given the fact that they are also human.

That concept by the largest and most accurate in magnitude Christian religion that exists now on earth, is called The Beatific Vision, by them.

Biblically, Job saw God, eventually at the end of his encounter, and from that he then knew about God. That is why, he was able to honestly recant some of his earlier thoughts. He now Knew. Before that time, he had only heard about God.

You are here.

Mary. The Virgin Mary, she asked me to do something without me knowing that it was her asking.

On the second time she asked, God, meaning The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit, All helped her, even after it was revealed to me, that she was the one, that was asking me.

Yes, belief comes hard, for me.

Well when I finally did what she wanted me to do, get ~A GIFT~, part of that gift only fits the description of 'The Beatific Vision' as that one religion talks about that concept.

No.

No, I had no concept that there was such an idea. I am not classically or in any other way that I can think of, religious, apart from God having me experience some things. And, apart from being, normal, religiously also.

Normal to me, means that I had no clue who was right out there, at one time, but God was always there, with me resisting Him, asking me to keep on trying to find the actual facts about Him.

(He asks all of us, to do that, I think, I think, but knowing God as ~I do~ that part is also more complicated than is normally, it is thought to be. Again, I think. I do not know that last part for sure. I don't. ~I don't yet~.)

So, the Trinitarian version of God, is the only correct version of God held by Christians.

The only version of Jesus Christ that is ~accessible to Christians now~ comes in two parts, just like Biblical information.

There is the part from people with past contacts with God, called The Old and New Testaments now, and there are the parts from people like me, that God tells and shows things to while still on earth.

All of those people historically are treated alike by people.

In the old days, they were killed as fast as possible. In the old days, the names given to them was prophet, and even with being in accord totally, with God's actual Words to Moses (I think), as found in Deuteronomy 18:20-22, that was still their fate, by people.

Since the time of Jesus, people like that have been given a new name. Their name is Mystic. They have been treated identically, to the way prophets of old were treated.

That is in the history books, Joan of Arc, is a classic example of a Mystic, meaning God is talking to her, and what all Mystics are treated like.

If then and now, Information From God, through people were used, to know about God, it looks like from my experience with trying to share that with everyone, all people are limited in what they can understand, until God Reveals That to them.

The reasons for that, seem to be ~that communications with God, after He communicates with a person~ is now done much much much more completely and then some.

Before God, my communications were normal from me and other humans and even in my attempts to talk to God, through what is called prayers in any and every form.

After, God ~Treated me to God, at the request of Mary the Virgin Mary~ then at those events and forever, so far, after those events, the communications are inclusive of other things, ~simultaneously and even before the act~ and I cannot do that to others, give them those same kinds of communications.

The result of that seems to be so far, that what I know, is not understood, except at the level that information is already out there, about God.

There is though, one very accurate unchanging description of God, and in that description, God The Father, God The Son and God The Holy Spirit (~not my personal allowed names for each of them and Mary~), are all well said and very very very accurate.

Saying or thinking otherwise, about Jesus Christ and God, is incorrect.

LOVE,
 
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Abubakr formed a committee led by Zyd Bn-Thabt. This community collected Quran in one place. All companions reviewed/agreed/accepted Zyd bn-Thabt committee results verse by verse, page by page, Surah by Surah, and order of Surahs in Quran.

A few companions used to write Quran from prophet all over the 23 years. It's expected that they might miss something here or there. These copies were in historical order, it doesn't include all Surahs and missing some verses as well.
Some of these companions kept using there own copies even after Zyd bn-Thabt committee resulted master copy.


Uthman created these copies and sent to Caliphate countries to avoid contradictions.
So, he ordered these companions to burn these copies to avoid any contradictions

The Abubakr codex wasn't universally accepted by Muslims that is why Uthman collected all the codex variants and spared one codex that is the one Abubakr possessed and destroyed all other codexes for their contradictions.
 
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Limo

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The Abubakr codex wasn't universally accepted by Muslims that is why Uthman collected all the codex variants and spared one codex that is the one Abubakr possessed and destroyed all other codexes for their contradictions.
No this not true.
Only Ibn-Massoud who insisted to keep his personal "Papers" can't call it Quran as it was incomplete. It includes only the Suras/verses that he wrote it himself
But all companions including Omar and Abubkr themselves as they used to write Quran, abandon their incomplete personal "Papers" and committed the first master copy that Zayd collected and reviewed by everyone.

Othaman copied the master one into 5-6 copies.
Even at that time Ibn-Masoud disagree to abandon his personal Papers. It said that he regretted his position and followed all companions, this why no reference to it.
 
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Islam_mulia

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For the same 100 time, I am telling you your own scripture said the Christians has Gospel and Jews has Torah, so the Gospel we have is from God

Surah 5:47 And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.

Surah 10:94 So if you are in doubt, [O Muhammad], about that which We have revealed to you, then ask those who have been reading the Scripture before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters.

Or else Quran is false :)
dcalling does not understand what the Quran refers to as the "Injeel" or "Gospel". There is nothing in the Quran which says that the Injeel is a collection of books written by phantom persons. The Quran speaks of the "Injeel" as follows:

"And in their footsteps We sent Jesus, the Son of Mary, confirming the law that had come before him. We gave him the Gospel, therein was guidance and light and confirmation of the law that had come before him, a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah." 5/46.

"I am indeed a servant of Allah, He gave me the Book and made me a prophet." 19/32

So, the Injeel was revealed or given to Jesus, just as the Quran was revealed to Muhammad (pbuh).

There is no mention that the Injeel was the collection of writings by people who claimed to be Mark, Matthew, Luke and John.
Your assumption that the Quran refers to the Gospel as the writings of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John therefore has no basis.

The Quran does not say that the Injeel and Torah are corrupted. That may be misunderstanding of both Muslims and Christians. The Injeel (in the context of the Quran) is available in the synoptic gospels, book of john and probably in the apocrypha. The Quran is the Criterion, to judge the truth from error, of what is written in the bible. Hence, you can find the truth about Jesus and God from the Christians' gospels, in the light of the teachings of the Quran.

For example, Jesus never claimed to be God, as explained in the Quran. If you read the Christians' gospels, you will find that Jesus NEVER claimed divinity. I can challenge dcalling to prove to me otherwise.

Hope the above is clear and gives you guidance to the right path.
 
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dcalling

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dcalling does not understand what the Quran refers to as the "Injeel" or "Gospel". There is nothing in the Quran which says that the Injeel is a collection of books written by phantom persons. The Quran speaks of the "Injeel" as follows:

"And in their footsteps We sent Jesus, the Son of Mary, confirming the law that had come before him. We gave him the Gospel, therein was guidance and light and confirmation of the law that had come before him, a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah." 5/46.

"I am indeed a servant of Allah, He gave me the Book and made me a prophet." 19/32

So, the Injeel was revealed or given to Jesus, just as the Quran was revealed to Muhammad (pbuh).

There is no mention that the Injeel was the collection of writings by people who claimed to be Mark, Matthew, Luke and John.
Your assumption that the Quran refers to the Gospel as the writings of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John therefore has no basis.

The Quran does not say that the Injeel and Torah are corrupted. That may be misunderstanding of both Muslims and Christians. The Injeel (in the context of the Quran) is available in the synoptic gospels, book of john and probably in the apocrypha. The Quran is the Criterion, to judge the truth from error, of what is written in the bible. Hence, you can find the truth about Jesus and God from the Christians' gospels, in the light of the teachings of the Quran.

For example, Jesus never claimed to be God, as explained in the Quran. If you read the Christians' gospels, you will find that Jesus NEVER claimed divinity. I can challenge dcalling to prove to me otherwise.

Hope the above is clear and gives you guidance to the right path.

I can understand and confirm the last part of your statement, that Jesus didn't claim to be God. (Edit: Need to clarify, from Bible that Jesus said if we see he we see the father, and Jesus is divine in ways just like an Angel (Before Abraham, he is), in that way it even if Jesus is not God, he is the representation of God on earth).

It is that complexity that compelled me to look more, into Torah and Quran.

However the first part of your statement has a problem, take a look at Quran:
Sura 5:68 Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.

Look at the verse before and after, there is no mention of either Gospel/Torah is lost, nor if the Christians should not trust any confirmed (that is 300 years after the Bible is confirmed by all Christians) authors of the Gospel. That can only mean 2 things, either Muhammad don't know what he is talking about (which I think both of us can safely throw away), or all confirmed Gospels at time of Muhammad (which is basically the Gospel of today) can be trusted.

If that is not the case, why did Quran only mention about Christians should not declare Jesus God, nor Jesus/Mary/God 3 Gods, but has no mention of Chrisitians should not use Mark/John/Paul as authors of Gospel? there is no mention of them anywhere, not even the ahadith. It will be very easy for Muhammd to say that Mark/John/Paul got the book wrong. If he didn't mention that (even with conversion to Christians), that means the books are OK, or at least the messages in the books are OK.
 
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Hoghead1

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I can understand and confirm the last part of your statement, that Jesus didn't claim to be God. (Edit: Need to clarify, from Bible that Jesus said if we see he we see the father, and Jesus is divine in ways just like an Angel (Before Abraham, he is), in that way it even if Jesus is not God, he is the representation of God on earth).

It is that complexity that compelled me to look more, into Torah and Quran.

However the first part of your statement has a problem, take a look at Quran:
Sura 5:68 Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.

Look at the verse before and after, there is no mention of either Gospel/Torah is lost, nor if the Christians should not trust any confirmed (that is 300 years after the Bible is confirmed by all Christians) authors of the Gospel. That can only mean 2 things, either Muhammad don't know what he is talking about (which I think both of us can safely throw away), or all confirmed Gospels at time of Muhammad (which is basically the Gospel of today) can be trusted.

If that is not the case, why did Quran only mention about Christians should not declare Jesus God, nor Jesus/Mary/God 3 Gods, but has no mention of Chrisitians should not use Mark/John/Paul as authors of Gospel? there is no mention of them anywhere, not even the ahadith. It will be very easy for Muhammd to say that Mark/John/Paul got the book wrong. If he didn't mention that (even with conversion to Christians), that means the books are OK, or at least the messages in the books are OK.
Yes, but many biblical passages do declare that Jesus is God, for example, the opening of John.
 
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Islam_mulia

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I can understand and confirm the last part of your statement, that Jesus didn't claim to be God.
Great. At least we have one thing in common. Indeed, Jesus never claimed to be God.

It is that complexity that compelled me to look more, into Torah and Quran.

However the first part of your statement has a problem, take a look at Quran:
Sura 5:68 Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.

Look at the verse before and after, there is no mention of either Gospel/Torah is lost, nor if the Christians should not trust any confirmed (that is 300 years after the Bible is confirmed by all Christians) authors of the Gospel. That can only mean 2 things, either Muhammad don't know what he is talking about (which I think both of us can safely throw away), or all confirmed Gospels at time of Muhammad (which is basically the Gospel of today) can be trusted.
The Torah and Gospel have never been lost. Again, we are in agreement here.

Sura 5:68 explained that only if the Jews and Christians follow the Torah, Gospel (singular, not Gospels according to ...)
and the "revelation that has come to you from your Lord" (Quran), then they will receive guidance. The Gospel, here, refers to the message of Christ that they can find in the bible, that can be validated by the Quran, as the truth. No where in the Quran can you find a Surah which claims that the Gospel(s) refers to the Gospel according to Mark, Matthew, Luke and John, but rather the revelations that come straight to Jesus and which he preached to the Jews at that time.

If that is not the case, why did Quran only mention about Christians should not declare Jesus God, nor Jesus/Mary/God 3 Gods, but has no mention of Chrisitians should not use Mark/John/Paul as authors of Gospel? there is no mention of them anywhere, not even the ahadith. It will be very easy for Muhammd to say that Mark/John/Paul got the book wrong. If he didn't mention that (even with conversion to Christians), that means the books are OK, or at least the messages in the books are OK.
The message of Christ, the Injeel, can be found in the Gospel according to Mark, Matthew, Luke and John, plus possibly in other gospels which the Church may not have approved. Of course, the Gospels you have also contain many inaccurate things which may not come from God.
 
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