Question to Protestants regarding certain Catholic beliefs

[Cis.jd]

1. Referring to Mary as the Mother of God. this could not be more wrong and sinful it is outright blasphemy .nothing less .
and has led many people into error and idolatry and still does .

to save typing
Just read this article ,i feel it covers it well . https://carm.org/is-mary-the-mother-of-god

You and that carm site are very ignorant. If you are to separate Jesus from his humanity and his divinity then you are going against scripture. Unless you believe there is a difference between God and Jesus then claiming Mary is the mother of Jesus is claiming is the Mother of God, if you believe him to be God.

If it was blasphemy, then why was it said in Luke 1:43? Wasn't the gospel of Luke written by Luke the apostle, who also the most academic to detail writer of the rest and used Matt and Mark as a reference?

also when you do another study of the bible as you claim to have done

and you compare the mary written of in scripture to the mary of the rcc .. you find they are not the same person they are not even close to the same person. they are two diabolically opposed persons .
the Mary of the bible is
NOT the mother of God
NOT devine (born without sin)
NOT the queen of heaven
NOT a perpetual virgin
NOT a co mediator .

1. Explained already
2. Born with out sin doesn't mean Devine. This was discussed in the previous page.
3. Queen of Heaven is title rooted from Revelation 11:19 the woman with a crown of 12 stars around her head. When you read Ps. 2:9 which says "with an iron rod you shall shepherd them" and connect it with Rev 12:1, which describes "The woman with a crown" will bring forth a male child (Jesus) who will rule the nations with a rod of iron." She is pretty much written in a high metaphorical manner in Revelation, don't you think?
Claiming she is the Queen of Heaven does not mean she shares authority with God, because she doesn't. It simply underlines Revelations, underlines Jesus is God, and underlines what scripture writes about the lineage of the line of King David. We are actually following the scripture to it's core, just like we did when we canonized it.

and 2 1. Praying to Mary, angels, and the Saints?
-communicating with those who have passed from the mortal body into the non mortal spiritual realm is forbidden by God ..it is the realm of the sin committed by mediums ,it is necromancy and SIN . such methods used by those who practiced such sins is chant and incantation.. ..-and so many dont realise that chanting hail mary is but an incantation to evoke the spiritual realm .

Where in the bible does it state this? If this is so, then why is it that the Jews themselves prayed to Elijah? Why is it said in Revelation 5:8 that angels were passing the prayers of the Saints to God? If it was wrong as you say so then why is it that David did it "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). I think you protestants developed your own definition of prayer and simply think it's an act of worship. It's an exercise of faith, but contacting Christians in Heaven is only achieved by talking-spiritually (praying), it can't be considered necromancy because they aren't dead.. and the fact that you can't put that in your head means you are not following the Bible especially John 3:16. Jesus gave all his followers eternal life.

 

[Alithis]

...... blah blah blah etc

of course you'd say that ..your catholic first . your replies are defensive and a little desperate sounding . very dishonest and with a huge dose of twisting .

when you seek to justify an action you display the action is in need of it ..where as, innocence needs no justification .

you also convince me further (not that i needed it ) why it is, i can never ,would never submit to the teachings of rome .

 

[chimaira]

It's an interesting q about prayer to saints. Perhaps a parable:
You have a friend who's a mechanic. You can ask him to look at your engine and pray for you. You could pray to him to look at the car and pray for you. You could pray to God about the car's performance and does he like driving?
Is there a particular reason for prayer that's separate from human talk? If the mechanic dies and becomes a saint ( the beatification is quick these days ) could you chat about spark-plugs? Then is the saint still just a mate with prayer apps?

 

[keltoi]

Look at the Bible and try to find any verse that says something like pray to my mum and the saints instead of praying to me.
Jesus clearly states "No one comes to the Father except through me". Why pray to Mary or the saints if praying to them does nothing for your eternal salvation? Praying to Mary, and the saints, was something the "Catholic Church" instituted so that people would go on pilgrimages to major pilgrimage sites and donate all of their life savings so they could think their prayers were being heard. In reality it is one of the greatest business ventures of al time and has raked in an immeasurable fortune for the Catholic Church over the last 2000 years.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Concerning Mary as the mother of God or Theotokos:

In the 5th century two significant controversies erupted concerning the nature of Christ. The controversies were largely outgrowths of the theological dispositions of two major Christian theological centers: Antioch in Syria and Alexandria in Egypt. These were known as the Antiochene School and the Alexandrian School. As it pertains to debates over Christ the simplified explanation is that the Antiochene School tended toward focusing on Christ's humanity where the Alexandrian School tended toward focusing on Christ's divinity.

The first of these two controversies surrounded Nestorius the then bishop of Constantinople. Nestorius argued that calling Mary Theotokos (God-bearer) was inappropriate, instead arguing that she should only be called Christotokos. This was seen as problematic, especially by those of the Alexandrian School, and as such one of Nestorius' chief opponents was Cyril of Alexandria. Whether or not this was Nestorius' actual belief continues to be a source of debate, but the charge made was that Nestorius denied the real union of divinity and humanity in Christ's person. Like two boards glued together, they were joined but remained completely separate. This was seen as claiming that Christ's divinity and humanity rendered, in some sense, a duality in Christ, to the point that the divine Logos was only attached to the human Jesus. As such the charge of Nestorianism is the denial of the true unity of Christ's two natures, and by insisting that Mary is only Christotokos but not Theotokos was seen as to say that there is a division in Christ and Mary is only mother to half of Jesus--His human half.

The second of these two controversies surrounded Eutyches, of the Alexandrian School, who in his attacks against Nestorianism led him to essentially go to the opposite extreme. For Eutyches the union of the two natures was such that the divinity and the humanity became mingled, mixed; and that in fact Christ's humanity was like a drop of water in the ocean of His divinity.

The climate was charged, a lot of it was highly politicized, but the result was the Council of Chalcedon which attempted to argue against both positions by denying both what was called Nestorianism as well as the teachings of Eutyches. Unfortunately many churches were asked to explicitly abide by the Definition of Chalcedon, and when they hesitated were effectively charged with heresy. The Oriental Orthodox Churches are the descendents of the Non-Chalcedonian Churches of the 5th century which preferred a different set of semantics than that used at Chalcedon, and for which they were charged with teaching Eutychianism or Monophysitism. Only recently has there been a real attempt to bring reconciliation over this ancient schism because the parties involved are actually willing to sit down, listen, and hear what is being said.

But here is why we insist on saying Mary is mother of God or Theotokos: We see it as a very significant danger to suggest otherwise, and in so doing deny the Deity of Christ; we further see it as a significant danger to speak of a divided Christ (Nestorianism). And when we say things like that only the human Christ was born, or only the divine Christ could forgive sins, etc. we have divided Christ and denied the true union of the divinity and the humanity. And instead we have insisted that to speak of Christ is to speak of the undivided, single, Jesus Christ, Lord, both Son of God and son of man. Eternally begotten of the Father before all ages, and in these last days born of Mary the virgin. So that we do not--and cannot--say only the humanity suffered, or only the divinity cast out demons. Instead it is Jesus Christ who is born, who heals lepers, casts out devils, makes the blind to see, commands the wind and waves to cease, who suffers, died, and rose again. God who cannot suffer suffered, God who cannot die died. Man who cannot forgive sins forgave sins, man who cannot make dead men live made dead men live. He is Jesus Christ, the God-Man.

And Mary is the mother of the God-Man, our Lord Jesus Christ. She is therefore Christokos, yes; Anthropotokos, yes; and also Theotokos. For she bore in her womb He who is God-and-human, even our Lord Jesus the one and only.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[pat34lee]

you also convince me further (not that i needed it ) why it is, i can never ,would never submit to the teachings of rome .

If you still are in a church pew on Sunday, you still follow Rome.
If you eat ham, you still follow Rome. If you don't observe the
biblical feasts of God as Jesus did, you follow Rome.

 

[pat34lee]

Mary and dead saints can be no more help you than
praying to a dead goldfish.

The dead are asleep. Daniel 12:2

The dead know nothing. Ecclesiastes 9:5

The dead praise not. Psalms 115:17

The dead don't think. Psalms 146:4

The dead will not be raised till the last day. John 6:39

The first LIE of Satan. "You shall surely NOT DIE". Genesis 3:4

 

[pat34lee]

And Mary is the mother of the God-Man, our Lord Jesus Christ. She is therefore Christokos, yes; Anthropotokos, yes; and also Theotokos. For she bore in her womb He who is God-and-human, even our Lord Jesus the one and only.

-CryptoLutheran

This is your mistake. Mary bore the fully human Yeshua, or Jesus.
Nothing more. Yahweh did the rest through his spirit. Mary is to
be commended for obeying, nothing more.

 

[Cis.jd]

of course you'd say that ..your catholic first . your replies are defensive and a little desperate sounding . very dishonest and with a huge dose of twisting .

when you seek to justify an action you display the action is in need of it ..where as, innocence needs no justification .

you also convince me further (not that i needed it ) why it is, i can never ,would never submit to the teachings of rome .

How am I being dishonest when I actually used verses for back up, can you explain them to me or just try reply with blind statements and dodge them completely? There is nothing defensive in my post, it is strictly theological.
Your teachings are teachings that came hundreds of years after christianity was born and after the Bible was canonized. The practices i've stated are practices that even the Jews partook in. I showed you verses of David praying to saints, the verse of revelation in where the angel passes to God their prayers, and the verse in revelation stating Mary with a crown. Yet i'm dishonest, seems like you are in denial.

 

[Cis.jd]

Look at the Bible and try to find any verse that says something like pray to my mum and the saints instead of praying to me.
Jesus clearly states "No one comes to the Father except through me". Why pray to Mary or the saints if praying to them does nothing for your eternal salvation? Praying to Mary, and the saints, was something the "Catholic Church" instituted so that people would go on pilgrimages to major pilgrimage sites and donate all of their life savings so they could think their prayers were being heard. In reality it is one of the greatest business ventures of al time and has raked in an immeasurable fortune for the Catholic Church over the last 2000 years.

I gave verses already from Revelation in where it states prayers of Saints being passed to God by Angels, i also gave verses of Psalms where David was praying to Angels, and historical references of Judaism practicing praying to Elijah, even during Jesus' time. We don't use saints to go to the Father, we use saints the same way we use our other church followers, as assistance in prayer. By your reasoning, you are forced to tell your congregation that they should forbid any prayer requests after services, because asking them for prayers does nothing for eternal salvation right?

Also, if it isn't necessary for someone to have christians pray for him, then why in the book of Job God told Job's friends, who He was displeased with, that they would have to have Job pray for them and they would be forgiven... because Job was a just man. They were only forgiven through Job's intercession.

 

[sparow]

Hello, and welcome!


I don't know how many Protestants actually DO object to this title. I don't. But as you said, it's a matter of what is meant by the title. I understand that it means she gave birth to Jesus who was God incarnate, not that it means she originated God. But there are other titles that are in common use among Catholics that do seem to me and others to be "too much," not to mention false doctrine (Ever-virgin, Immaculate Conception, etc.)


Well, we think that it's obviously different and for several very good reasons.


No. For one thing, you asked about praying to the saints, i.e. departed mortals, beings created by God. That's not what Jesus was. And second, Jesus taught that we ought to ask God for the many things people ask saints to deliver when praying to them. And third, Jesus IS our only mediator. What you're speaking of is intercession, not mediation.

The Bible doesn't call Mary the mother of God; when John tried to make Mary important Jesus said the church was His mother; Also the title, "mother of God," was the title given to Nimrods wife.

Yes, you are right about that but I also referenced the Arc of the covenant analogy given in Revelation. When you read about the Arc of the Covenant, no near mortal could touch it because it had to be complete clean from the stain of sin. So the verse in Luke and the analogy in Revelation just adds up.


Neo-Protestants in majority have this argument, the only protestant who do not are the first ones. Every form of early Judai-Christian practiced praying to saints and heavenly. The Jews did it and still today with Elijah and the angels, the first protestants such as the Lutherans, Episcopalians, etc also do it. The only people who consider it wrong are the protestant sects that were born hundreds of years after. We also never claimed them as mediators, they are just intercessors just like every other christian living on earth.




Brother, what do you think we are and what prayer is actually? Prayer in itself is our spirits communicating through the power of the God's spirit. We are spirits with a physical body, therefore a spirit on earth praying for another is nothing different from a spirit is now at heaven.

You can even see it in Pslams 148:1-2 where David was telling the Angels to praise God with him, then you have Rev. 8:3-4 with the Angel offering the prayers of the Saints to God. You can see clearly the angel is interceding and passing off the petitions of the prayers of Saints. So you have this, plus the history of Judaistic and early Christianity, it's too scripturally and academically backed up.

The scriptures say, "pray to the Father in Jesus's name," one could pray to Jesus but the Saints are asleep waiting resurrection; they would not know they were being prayed to.

 

[ViaCrucis]

This is your mistake. Mary bore the fully human Yeshua, or Jesus.
Nothing more. Yahweh did the rest through his spirit. Mary is to
be commended for obeying, nothing more.

Is Jesus God?
Is Mary Jesus' mother?

If the answer to both of these questions is yes, then that settles it. If the answer to either of these is no then we have a serious problem.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Also the title, "mother of God," was the title given to Nimrods wife.

Someone's been reading Hislop's Fables I see.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Extraneous]

Its this kind of stuff that causes division. Mary was just a sinner like everyone else. Let him who glories glory only in the Lord. Let God be true and every man a liar. Just say amen so we can move past it.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Just say amen so we can move past it.

What should we say amen to? Should we say amen to saying that Jesus isn't fully God and fully human? I can't say amen to that because it would be unconscionable.

-CryptoLuthearn

 

[Extraneous]

What should we say amen to? Should we say amen to saying that Jesus isn't fully God and fully human? I can't say amen to that because it would be unconscionable.

-CryptoLuthearn

Just say that mary, like all people, is just a human, and that she, like every man, is a liar. Let God be true and every man a liar. Im sure Mary would gladly say- Amen!

 

[ViaCrucis]

Just say that mary, like all people, is just a human, and that she, like every man, is a liar. Let God be true and every man a liar. Im sure Mary would gladly say- Amen!

Of course Mary was just a regular human sinner.

But that's not even remotely what the debate is about.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Extraneous]

Of course Mary was just a regular human sinner.

But that's not even remotely what the debate is about.

-CryptoLutheran

I just think that if certain denominations would say let God be true and every man a liar, that we could move out of the dark ages.

 

[keltoi]

I gave verses already from Revelation in where it states prayers of Saints being passed to God by Angels,

You gave a verse on its own and out of any context. Please put it in full context and then get back to me.

i also gave verses of Psalms where David was praying to Angels,

I must have missed them where exactly does David pray to Angels?

and historical references of Judaism practicing praying to Elijah, even during Jesus' time.

You are comparing the practises of Hebrews, they were not called Jews until well after the final sections of the Bible had been written, whose belief is based on the OT to Christians whose belief is based on the NT. You are comparing apples and oranges

We don't use saints to go to the Father, we use saints the same way we use our other church followers, as assistance in prayer.

I don't need assistance in prayer, Christ himself gave an example how to pray and I don't remember anything like "Our Joshua who art in heaven hallowed be thy name".

By your reasoning, you are forced to tell your congregation that they should forbid any prayer requests after services, because asking them for prayers does nothing for eternal salvation right?

Hmmm this is an interesting tactic but one that I will play along with just to clarify your total misunderstanding of my reasoning. I don't have a congregation and I have no authority to tell anyone they are forbidden to make prayer requests after a service. I have regularly prayed for the well being of another even without being asked, it shows I am concerned for my brothers and sisters in Christ. I will not, ever, pray to a dead human being when I can pray to God himself.

Also, if it isn't necessary for someone to have christians pray for him, then why in the book of Job God told Job's friends, who He was displeased with, that they would have to have Job pray for them and they would be forgiven... because Job was a just man. They were only forgiven through Job's intercession.

I believe I have already given a sufficient answer and example of what I am talking about. Your initial thought was praying to dead people now you are talking about asking someone who is alive to pray for us. There is a huge difference and you are confusing the real issue by going off track.

 

[Upper Cut]

I am a Christian (LCMS Lutheran) although I do not venerate Mary, nor do I have any reason to believe in her eternal virginity, immaculate conception, or bodily assumption, nor do I believe that she is co redeemer of he world...I do believe however that she is a good example to be emulated, that she was the Mother of God, and that as is said in the NT all "generations shall call me blessed". Mary and the saints were all sinners like the rest of us, she and the rest of the saints sinned many times a day, like the rest of us, and their is no biblical evidence that any departed souls continue to pray or intercede for us. Christ is the way the truth and the life, lean on him, trust in his promises and in him only for your salvation, and do your best to sincerely live your faith I have heard Mary somewhat denigrated in the past. I do not think a person honors Christ when you dishonor his mother. I for one do not suffer from a lot of Roma-phobia and I happen to believe in most of the Catholic social teaching. One last thing...The Orthodox have some different views on Mary and the saints, people would be in error to believe they are the same.