Question to Protestants regarding certain Catholic beliefs

[Cis.jd]

I think it suffices to say that there are a number of ways of understanding that verse, so it's far from a conclusive proof of something like an "Immaculate Conception," and I hoped that we wouldn't start into a "tis so" "tis not" kind of exchange over that.

Yes, you are right about that but I also referenced the Arc of the covenant analogy given in Revelation. When you read about the Arc of the Covenant, no near mortal could touch it because it had to be complete clean from the stain of sin. So the verse in Luke and the analogy in Revelation just adds up.

First, let's be clear that "what Protestants say" is terribly inexact. There are hundreds of millions of Protestant Christians and many Protestant denominations. You can find, among them, almost any idea imaginable being voiced.

But to the extent that "Protestants" say what you do here, it's because Catholic very often think of the saints and their prayers to the saints as a matter of them being mediators for us mortals...and it's clear that this is wrong, because Jesus is our only mediator with the Father.
(1 Timothy 2:5)

Neo-Protestants in majority have this argument, the only protestant who do not are the first ones. Every form of early Judai-Christian practiced praying to saints and heavenly. The Jews did it and still today with Elijah and the angels, the first protestants such as the Lutherans, Episcopalians, etc also do it. The only people who consider it wrong are the protestant sects that were born hundreds of years after. We also never claimed them as mediators, they are just intercessors just like every other christian living on earth.

The Bible advises us to ask our neighbors for prayer; it does not teach that we ought to try communicating with spirits, but rather that our Father in heaven is expecting to hear from us., In addition, we have a mediator in Christ Jesus.

It's a matter of following God's express will rather than reasoning out plausible courses of action like you've been defending.

Brother, what do you think we are and what prayer is actually? Prayer in itself is our spirits communicating through the power of the God's spirit. We are spirits with a physical body, therefore a spirit on earth praying for another is nothing different from a spirit is now at heaven.

You can even see it in Pslams 148:1-2 where David was telling the Angels to praise God with him, then you have Rev. 8:3-4 with the Angel offering the prayers of the Saints to God. You can see clearly the angel is interceding and passing off the petitions of the prayers of Saints. So you have this, plus the history of Judaistic and early Christianity, it's too scripturally and academically backed up.

 

[Cis.jd]

Protestants understand the subtlety of Christ being God incarnate, but also understand that the particular formula is not required for faith and that it can cause confusion. Therefore more often than not we choose not to use the formula statement.

I can't change your decision on not wanting to use the formula, but a lot of protestants accuse this of blaspheme. Now, why is it discouraged to use due to confusion? Does this title make God sound nerfed? If that is so, then why make statements like "God died on the cross", this could also cause confusion to those who are not Christian because "how can a God die?". One of the main things that Romans mocked Christians for was the belief that they were worshiping a man who was killed in Palestine, in there view a god could not be killed by mortals, this view is still carried on by Muslims, Hindu's, and other different religions. If you try to correct it "God didn't die, Jesus physically died, temporarily" then the question will raise "so is Jesus God, did he die on the cross...". Trying to make a distinction between Jesus and God is illogical to Christianity, when you say Jesus you automatically say God, because he is God John 1:1.

It was even said by Elizabeth "the mother of my Lord". The title is Biblical.

 

[Light of the East]

I hate the term, "Mother of God" because it puts a mortal human on a similar level to God, himself. At worst, it makes her sound like the causative agent of God, which she is not, and at best, it makes her sound like the same species (type of being) as God, which she also is not.

What about the term which Greek Catholics use: Theotokos (God-bearer). Do you think that one is better and more accurate?

Also, do you think that King David is alive or dead?

 

[Dig4truth]

Hello, i'm here because i'm interesting in understanding the Protestant point of view that contends with Catholic teachings. I myself was raised in a Protestant church and heard all the anti-catholic statements, I've always been one of those who wanted to refute the Catholic church however upon reading the Bible carefully, I'm beginning to think that most protestant beliefs against catholic practices are a bit wrong, which leads me here to see what your thoughts are in regards to some Biblical back up supporting Catholic practices and theology.


1. Praying to Mary, angels, and the Saints?
I strictly thought this to be unbiblical, idolatry, etc etc.. and this was the first immediate practice that I ventured in refuting. However, after reading the Bible I understand the side of Catholics on this.

For one, Catholics believe that asking Mary, angels, and Saints for prayers is nowhere different than asking someone in church to pray for them. I mean, if protestants cling to the "Jesus is the only mediator (which is true) between God and man" then wouldn't it be hypocritical on a protestant to ask for a fellow church mate for prayers? Does asking someone to intercede for us contradict the "Jesus is the only mediator to God" doctrine?

Now, some may say: "Well, one of the reasons why is because how can the Saints hear the prayers of millions of people around the world, in different languages that they never understood when they were alive"? Which is a logical answer.
However, all protestant churches teach how Satan goes around the world, tempting every single person around the world, through out time, and with different dialects to sin. If you believe that Satan -a fallen angel, the king of evil- has this near-omni present power, and this ability to speak in different languages to millions of people around the world then why can't you believe that a faithful servant of God (who is in heaven) can do petitioning/intercession for millions of people? Doesn't the Holy Spirit grant his servants the gift of tongues?

Deut 18:10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer,11 or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.

I believe it is clear that we are not to contact the dead, or the "spirits" of the dead.
There is no example in the scriptures of saints praying to dead saints.
Any intercession is always seen as other believers (alive) interceding for other believers.


Here are a few other topics you may want to address;

Priests cannot marry.
Pope is called "Holy Father".
Idols, icons and images in the worship service.

 

[Light of the East]

Deut 18:10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer,11 or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.

I believe it is clear that we are not to contact the dead, or the "spirits" of the dead.
There is no example in the scriptures of saints praying to dead saints.
Any intercession is always seen as other believers (alive) interceding for other believers.

Are those who died in Christ alive or dead?

If they are dead, then that is a pretty poor salvation that you have that leaves them dead. If they are alive, they are in Christ, and as such, are partakers of the divine nature, according to Peter.

You quote the Old Covenant. It is passed away. That changes everything. In the Old Covenant, even the righteous like King David were separated from God by the gulf of mankind's sin. Until Christ came and removed this, they went to a place in the next life where they waited for the coming of the Savior. Scripture says that Christ descended into hades, preached to the dead, and led captivity captive (that is, He conquered death by death).

The saints are in heaven, they are partakers of the divine nature, therefore, they can hear us and respond to our prayers for their aid. He is the God of the living, not of the dead.

 

[Light of the East]

Priests cannot marry

Only in the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church. You are misinformed.

 

[Light of the East]

Idols, icons and images in the worship service.

You continue to be misinformed. There are no idols in Catholic or Orthodox churches. An idol is a representation of God, done by using some created thing, such as the ugly elephant "god" Ganesh of the Hindus. That is an idol. They pray to it, call it "god" and treat it as such.

No such thing exists in Catholic or Orthodox churches. You are very misinformed.

 

[Cis.jd]

I'm not going to debate you, as I don't see that we have enough common ground even to reach a consensus. Namely, my ultimate authority is the Bible, and yours is a priest. In the event of a direct contradiction, we have no way to reconcile the two, making it an impasse. However, because you ask an honest question, I will give an honest answer. It does not necessarily reflect the opinion of anyone other than myself.

No my authority is the Bible and I am using the Bible as a reference. Catholics canonized your main authority, and the high majority of what you reject are actual Christian beliefs that were practiced by the early christians who existed 200 years before the Bible was canonized.

I hate the term, "Mother of God" because it puts a mortal human on a similar level to God, himself. At worst, it makes her sound like the causative agent of God, which she is not, and at best, it makes her sound like the same species (type of being) as God, which she also is not. Seeing as how Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit, one could just as easily call her the Concubine of God. It gets really messy if we think of her as the Wife and Mother of God. The most technically correct thing we could call her is the mother of Jesus, because that's exactly what she was. It's the one title that most accurately describes her relationship with God. She was not the mother of God the Father, or God the Holy Spirit; she was only the mother of Jesus. Therefore, while the term "Mother of God," is inexcusably misleading, the term "mother of Jesus," is an honest truth.

No it doesn't. And Elizabeth said it in your main authority: But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? Lk 1:43. You just went on exaggerating based on your misunderstanding of it, which you likely got from listening to your pastors and not your bible. When you are saying "Mary is the mother of Jesus" you are actually saying "the Mother of God". The name of Jesus is just at the same level as the name of God. It holds the same power and the same authority. By your logic you shouldn't even say she was the mother of Jesus. Unless you think there is a difference between Jesus and God... i would understand your reasoning if you were non-trinitarian.

Nowhere in the Bible has any good man or woman of God prayed to a dead person without disastrous results. If you can believe in prayer to saints, then I can guarantee that the idea did not come from the Bible.

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.

First of all: John 3:16 says that who so ever believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. Therefore Christians who have physically died are not dead, because their spirits are still alive. Ecclesiastes is in the Old testament, long before the knowledge of Christ redeemed the world. In short, life does not end past the physical world and you being a christian should know that. The Jews themselves during that time prayed and called to Elijah because they still practice it because who ever is in heaven, is not dead. That is why the jews mistakenly thought Jesus was calling on Elijah when he was crying on the cross "Look, He is calling for Elijah!, Leave Him alone; let us see if Elijah will come to him". It was common practice to believe that a high figure of God who was taken in heaven can be called to, regardless of not being physically alive". I can even show you discussions of Jewish people today who still practice praying to Elijah and Angels.

Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20–21).

Lastly, look at the Transfiguration of Christ when he was standing in between Moses and Elijah, they were spirits weren't they?

 

[Cis.jd]

Deut 18:10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer,11 or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.

I believe it is clear that we are not to contact the dead, or the "spirits" of the dead.
There is no example in the scriptures of saints praying to dead saints.
Any intercession is always seen as other believers (alive) interceding for other believers.


Here are a few other topics you may want to address;

Priests cannot marry.
Pope is called "Holy Father".
Idols, icons and images in the worship service.

We are not allowed to contact the dead but aren't the ones who believe in Christ given "eternal life"? Look at the Jews, they attempted contact with Elijah, Enoch, and the Angels in heaven.. as the bible says, anybody who is in Heaven is alive. There is nowhere in the Bible that states that Physically alive people are only capable of practicing christianity/praying for each other. The christians in heaven are just as capable of doing that. Death does not disconnect us from the body of Christ.

 

[Dig4truth]

Are those who died in Christ alive or dead?

If they are dead, then that is a pretty poor salvation that you have that leaves them dead. If they are alive, they are in Christ, and as such, are partakers of the divine nature, according to Peter.

You quote the Old Covenant. It is passed away. That changes everything. In the Old Covenant, even the righteous like King David were separated from God by the gulf of mankind's sin. Until Christ came and removed this, they went to a place in the next life where they waited for the coming of the Savior. Scripture says that Christ descended into hades, preached to the dead, and led captivity captive (that is, He conquered death by death).

The saints are in heaven, they are partakers of the divine nature, therefore, they can hear us and respond to our prayers for their aid. He is the God of the living, not of the dead.

Then please provide Scripture that condones this practice. I have provided Scripture that condemns this practice. Is there an example of any follower of Yeshua that has prayed to a departed (physically dead) believer?

 

[Dig4truth]

No my authority is the Bible and I am using the Bible as a reference. Catholics canonized your main authority, and the high majority of what you reject are actual Christian beliefs that were practiced by the early christians who existed 200 years before the Bible was canonized.


No it doesn't. And Elizabeth said it in your main authority: But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? Lk 1:43. You just went on exaggerating based on your misunderstanding of it, which you likely got from listening to your pastors and not your bible. When you are saying "Mary is the mother of Jesus" you are actually saying "the Mother of God". The name of Jesus is just at the same level as the name of God. It holds the same power and the same authority. By your logic you shouldn't even say she was the mother of Jesus. Unless you think there is a difference between Jesus and God... i would understand your reasoning if you were non-trinitarian.



First of all: John 3:16 says that who so ever believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. Therefore Christians who have physically died are not dead, because their spirits are still alive. Ecclesiastes is in the Old testament, long before the knowledge of Christ redeemed the world. In short, life does not end past the physical world and you being a christian should know that. The Jews themselves during that time prayed and called to Elijah because they still practice it because who ever is in heaven, is not dead. That is why the jews mistakenly thought Jesus was calling on Elijah when he was crying on the cross "Look, He is calling for Elijah!, Leave Him alone; let us see if Elijah will come to him". It was common practice to believe that a high figure of God who was taken in heaven can be called to, regardless of not being physically alive". I can even show you discussions of Jewish people today who still practice praying to Elijah and Angels.

Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20–21).

Lastly, look at the Transfiguration of Christ when he was standing in between Moses and Elijah, they were spirits weren't they?

(emp. added)


How then were the Old Testiment people saved then?

 

[Dig4truth]

We are not allowed to contact the dead but aren't the ones who believe in Christ given "eternal life"? Look at the Jews, they attempted contact with Elijah, Enoch, and the Angels in heaven.. as the bible says, anybody who is in Heaven is alive. There is nowhere in the Bible that states that Physically alive people are only capable of practicing christianity/praying for each other. The christians in heaven are just as capable of doing that. Death does not disconnect us from the body of Christ.

If we are not allowed to contact the dead then I'm confused about your point here. Wouldn't praying to them be "contacting" them?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Then please provide Scripture that condones this practice. I have provided Scripture that condemns this practice. Is there an example of any follower of Yeshua that has prayed to a departed (physically dead) believer?

You mean an example of a Christian in the Bible? Because it's obvious that followers of Jesus have done this, as those who do this today are followers of the Lord.

There are two issues here:

1) The assumption of biblicism. Roughly the idea that anything not explicitly taught or commanded in Scripture is error or wrong; a position that is itself indefensible from Scripture.

2) The issue of petitioning the saints to pray for us.

It becomes abundantly clear that a pure biblicist doesn't exist, we all adhere to theological ideas and engage in practices which Scripture does not explicitly speak of. Here are a few: the Biblical Canon, wearing pants, discussing religion on the internet, the accompaniment of instruments (or using no instruments) in the singing of hymns and sacred songs. So more appropriate is not "where is this explicitly spoken of in Scripture" but whether it violates Scripture, is it out of harmony with Scripture, etc.

So the question of whether it is appropriate to ask the departed saints to pray for us largely ought to be rooted in other matters of theology. The Lutheran Confessions come against it because it is viewed as innovative in Church history, formal "prayers" to the saints not being found in the antiquity of the Church; because prayer is to be done in faith, since we have no way to know one way or the other that the saints can hear our requests we cannot in good faith do so; because there were many who at that time demanded that it was a necessary part of Christian spirituality and thus compounding it with the biggest concern: That the saints can provide us with their merits to aid us in our path to salvation, thus compromising the integrity of the Gospel. It is because of the abuses and potential of abuses, and the risk of compromising the integrity of the Gospel that it is ultimately put aside.

So:

1) Our ancient fore-bearers in the faith do not seem to know of the practice.

2) It is not revealed to us one way or the other what the saints know, or what capacity they have to hear. So we shouldn't presume one way or the other.

3) It was being treated as a spiritual requirement imposed apart from the commands of God.

4) Abuses which resulted in a confusion and compromise of the pure and unfettered Gospel.

The first two are not significant problems, but the latter two are serious problems. And in such cases it becomes necessary to be in statu confessionis, in a state of confession, in order to ensure a pure confession of both Law and Gospel.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

If we are not allowed to contact the dead then I'm confused about your point here. Wouldn't praying to them be "contacting" them?

If seances were conducted to commune with the departed saints, that would certainly be a significant problem. But I am unaware of any such things happening in either the Roman Catholic or Orthodox Churches.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Arcangl86]

Deut 18:10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer,11 or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.

I believe it is clear that we are not to contact the dead, or the "spirits" of the dead.
There is no example in the scriptures of saints praying to dead saints.
Any intercession is always seen as other believers (alive) interceding for other believers.


Here are a few other topics you may want to address;

Priests cannot marry.
Pope is called "Holy Father".
Idols, icons and images in the worship service.

Then please provide Scripture that condones this practice. I have provided Scripture that condemns this practice. Is there an example of any follower of Yeshua that has prayed to a departed (physically dead) believer?

Is there any Scripture that shows a follower of Jesus being forbidden from praying to a dead believer?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

1. Referring to Mary as the Mother of God.

I was a Roman Catholic, so I'll answer, and I'll answer for myself only, not for all Protestants.

What I am opposed to is making Mary a 4th member of the Trinity. Also, she is the mother of Christ's humanity only, not His divinity.

1. Praying to Mary, angels, and the Saints?

The way this works out in practice is that Mary is a mediator, and this is not only unnecessary, but blasphemous. People (in my experience) do it because their view of God is too transcendent. God is seen as distant and angry, so let me go to Mary. Maybe she can put the good word in for me.

 

[Arcangl86]

Also, she is the mother of Christ's humanity only, not His divinity.

This is why I personally prefer Theotokos. It has connotations that she physically bore the whole Christ, without the possible understanding that she was the source of God.

 

[Alithis]

Hello, i'm here because i'm interesting in understanding the Protestant point of view that contends with Catholic teachings. I myself was raised in a Protestant church and heard all the anti-catholic statements, I've always been one of those who wanted to refute the Catholic church however upon reading the Bible carefully, I'm beginning to think that most protestant beliefs against catholic practices are a bit wrong, which leads me here to see what your thoughts are in regards to some Biblical back up supporting Catholic practices and theology.

I'll start of with a few areas first

1. Referring to Mary as the Mother of God.
> Why are protestants so against this title, when it is actually true in away. If you don't deny that Mary is the actual mother of Jesus, likewise do not deny that Jesus was also fully God, then what is the problem? Isn't saying Mary is the mother of Jesus, saying "Mary is the mother of God"? I mean, Elizabeth said "the mother of my Lord" to her, and Revelations does talk about her in such a high fashion. Catholic's don't believe this statement means she is above or pre-exists God but just making sure that the divine nature of Jesus is not denied.

1. Praying to Mary, angels, and the Saints?
I strictly thought this to be unbiblical, idolatry, etc etc.. and this was the first immediate practice that I ventured in refuting. However, after reading the Bible I understand the side of Catholics on this.

For one, Catholics believe that asking Mary, angels, and Saints for prayers is nowhere different than asking someone in church to pray for them. I mean, if protestants cling to the "Jesus is the only mediator (which is true) between God and man" then wouldn't it be hypocritical on a protestant to ask for a fellow church mate for prayers? Does asking someone to intercede for us contradict the "Jesus is the only mediator to God" doctrine?

Now, some may say: "Well, one of the reasons why is because how can the Saints hear the prayers of millions of people around the world, in different languages that they never understood when they were alive"? Which is a logical answer.
However, all protestant churches teach how Satan goes around the world, tempting every single person around the world, through out time, and with different dialects to sin. If you believe that Satan -a fallen angel, the king of evil- has this near-omni present power, and this ability to speak in different languages to millions of people around the world then why can't you believe that a faithful servant of God (who is in heaven) can do petitioning/intercession for millions of people? Doesn't the Holy Spirit grant his servants the gift of tongues?

1. Referring to Mary as the Mother of God. this could not be more wrong and sinful it is outright blasphemy .nothing less .
and has led many people into error and idolatry and still does .

to save typing
Just read this article ,i feel it covers it well . https://carm.org/is-mary-the-mother-of-god

also when you do another study of the bible as you claim to have done
and you compare the mary written of in scripture to the mary of the rcc .. you find they are not the same person they are not even close to the same person. they are two diabolically opposed persons .
the Mary of the bible is
NOT the mother of God
NOT devine (born without sin)
NOT the queen of heaven
NOT a perpetual virgin
NOT a co mediator .

thus the mary of the rcc is NOT the same mary as in the bible ..the rcc mary is a false godess they renamed "mary"

and 2 1. Praying to Mary, angels, and the Saints?

-communicating with those who have passed from the mortal body into the non mortal spiritual realm is forbidden by God ..it is the realm of the sin committed by mediums ,it is necromancy and SIN . such methods used by those who practiced such sins is chant and incantation.. ..-and so many dont realise that chanting hail mary is but an incantation to evoke the spiritual realm .

and as for the ridiculous claim that you do not "pray" to mary .. you ask her to pray for you ... i must laugh at the dishonesty of it ..
first your attempting to talk to one who has passed from this world (forbidden by God and sinful ) and then you are earnestly asking her to do somthing for you ..

the word "pray " means - to ask earnestly .. so no mater which way you twist it .. your praying to a departed spirit and your double deep in sin by doing so and must repent of that sinful activity .

Add to that - when the lord Jesus taught us how to pray he does not include any other to pray TO... he said no one comes to the father but through ME and he tells us to pray "to the father" .. saying "our father who art In HEAVEN ..."

the sole reason for earnestly asking things of departed spirits is an absolutely FAITHLESS stance which does not believe that God is able to hear nor answer ..it is a denial of his omniscience and omnipresence.. it is a denial that he is GOD .


-perhaps you came to convince ones like me of somthing , but all you have done is remind me why i could never ,can never and will never submit to the teachings of Rome

 

[Cis.jd]

(emp. added)


How then were the Old Testiment people saved then?

OT people were saved after Jesus' death and resurrection.

If we are not allowed to contact the dead then I'm confused about your point here. Wouldn't praying to them be "contacting" them?

My point is that due to Christ, any person who believes in him will not die. They will physically die, but spiritually they will not. There for claiming they are "dead" is against the biblical teaching of John 3:16.

 

[Cis.jd]

I was a Roman Catholic, so I'll answer, and I'll answer for myself only, not for all Protestants.

What I am opposed to is making Mary a 4th member of the Trinity. Also, she is the mother of Christ's humanity only, not His divinity.

How is saying "she is the Mother of God make her a 4th member of the trinity? This was simply in the Bible with Elizabeth claiming she was the mother of the Lord. Calling her the mother of God does not imply she is the mother of his divinity, it implies that regardless of Jesus being man and had a humanity, he was still fully God. So any time you say Jesus you are saying God, when you make statements about Jesus getting hungry at the desert you are also saying God got hungry at the desert. When you say Jesus was tempted by satan, you also say God was tempted in the desert. There is no hierarchy in this title, it is simply making it clear that you can not separate Jesus' humanity from his divinity. Mary is the mother of Jesus-God.

The way this works out in practice is that Mary is a mediator, and this is not only unnecessary, but blasphemous. People (in my experience) do it because their view of God is too transcendent. God is seen as distant and angry, so let me go to Mary. Maybe she can put the good word in for me.

The earlier posts, we were talking about the difference between Mediator and intercessor. By your logic then we really should not ask any form of church member, family member, or friend to pray for us. Oh yeah wait, you protestants think that death disconnects us from each other, i guess John 3:16 has very weak meaning to you.