Question - Salvation in some Traditions

[patience7]

Repeat:

When we are born again - we are born again of incorruptible seed - and it is a gift from God - does He remove His "seed" (spirit) each time we fall out of fellowship/communion (sin) with him and then put it back in each time we receive forgiveness and are cleansed from all unrighteousness?

It seems to me that being born again makes God my Father. I am now a partaker of his divine nature (DNA so to speak). As a parent myself - my children get on "my wrong side" at times; some parents even disown their children; BUT it doesn't change the fact that that "DNA" is still there and that can't be changed. That "DNA" is not taken away - put back in - taken away, etc.

 

[Habakk]

Repeat:

It seems to me that being born again makes God my Father. I am now a partaker of his divine nature (DNA so to speak). As a parent myself - my children get on "my wrong side" at times; some parents even disown their children; BUT it doesn't change the fact that that "DNA" is still there and that can't be changed. That "DNA" is not taken away - put back in - taken away, etc.

Except that God doesn’t have deoxyribonucleic acid he is spirit. Yes I know that you were only stating an analogy but our son ship with God is not a genetic one. In Genesis we read God created man in his own image in the NT we find that God is making us conform to the image of his son. God’s plan never changed we partake in that plan by free will choice and after that choice we enter into God’s predestined plan by the foreknowledge of God. The problem is that some Calvinistic doctrine gets the predestined bit the wrong way round from God’s foreknowledge and the result is that free will is an untenable logic paradox. All this results in the doctrine of “once saved always saved.” This is clearly not the same as the bible portrayal of salvation.

We can know of a surety we are saved and none can snatch us from the fathers hand but we can neglect our salvation by our own doing.

"1Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. 2For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; 3How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; 4God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?”

 

[patience7]

Except that God doesn’t have deoxyribonucleic acid he is spirit. Yes I know that you were only stating an analogy but our son ship with God is not a genetic one. In Genesis we read God created man in his own image in the NT we find that God is making us conform to the image of his son.

Yes, God created man in his own image - and that spirit was given on a condition. Gen. 2:16,17 When man did not fulfill God's conditions man sinned and was then dead in trespassess and sin without God. That is why we must be born again. So on the day of Pentecose every believer for the first time could have the spirit from God born within. So being born again, I have received "the spirit of adoption whereby we cry, Abba, Father". . . which makes me a child of God and if a child - then heir of God and joint heir with Christ - partaker of the divine nature - I guess that makes me part of a family and as much a part of one that Jesus calles me his brother/sister.

God’s plan never changed we partake in that plan by free will choice and after that choice we enter into God’s predestined plan by the foreknowledge of God. The problem is that some Calvinistic doctrine gets the predestined bit the wrong way round from God’s foreknowledge and the result is that free will is an untenable logic paradox. All this results in the doctrine of “once saved always saved.” This is clearly not the same as the bible portrayal of salvation.

We can know of a surety we are saved and none can snatch us from the fathers hand but we can neglect our salvation by our own doing.

"1Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. 2For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; 3How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; 4God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?”

I'm not a Calvinist. I do believe that once I am a child of God that I am always a child of God that's why I used the analogy of an earthly family. When we are born again - we are born again of incorruptible seed - and it is a gift from God - does He remove His "seed" (spirit) each time we fall out of fellowship/communion (sin) with him and then put it back in each time we receive forgiveness and are cleansed from all unrighteousness?

 

[Habakk]

I'm not a Calvinist. I do believe that once I am a child of God that I am always a child of God that's why I used the analogy of an earthly family. When we are born again - we are born again of incorruptible seed - and it is a gift from God - does He remove His "seed" (spirit) each time we fall out of fellowship/communion (sin) with him and then put it back in each time we receive forgiveness and are cleansed from all unrighteousness?

We are born again of incorruptible seed and that seed is the word of God. We need to remain and be kept by that incorruptible word. No, God does not remove his seed but we can by free will depart from those things.

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

The Aramaic Bible puts it this way:
As persons who have been born again, not from fallible seed, but that which is infallible, by the living word of God which stands for eternity.

The scripture also says of the church:
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word. That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

The word keeps us as our saviour washes us in the word providing thats where we are abiding.

 

[patience7]

We are born again of incorruptible seed and that seed is the word of God. We need to remain and be kept by that incorruptible word. No, God does not remove his seed but we can by free will depart from those things.

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

The Aramaic Bible puts it this way:
As persons who have been born again, not from fallible seed, but that which is infallible, by the living word of God which stands for eternity.

The scripture also says of the church:
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word. That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

The word keeps us as our saviour washes us in the word providing thats where we are abiding.

Actually, the word of God is not the incorruptible seed - 1) Being born again 2) not of corruptible seed (flesh) 3) but of incorruptible (seed [spirit]) 4) BY (through or by means of) the word of God (faith comes by hearing) which liveth and abideth forever.

John 3:3. . .Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. . .5)Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God 6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealved in the last time. (1 Peter 3-5)

It seems we have a place reserved in heaven!!!!

 

[Habakk]

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealved in the last time. (1 Peter 3-5)

It seems we have a place reserved in heaven!!!!

Yes I agree we have a place in heaven. I'm glad that you believe that.

I don’t for one moment doubt that, the scripture in 1 Peter 1:3-5
Yes we have a hope of that inheritance and yes we are kept by the power of God by faith.

Ok I can see this is just becoming “Bible wars” again.

The doctrines that I hold to I have also experienced. I come from a church that has seen many powerful conversions. I have seen some of the most unlikely people cry out to God in repentance and commit their lives to him after hearing the preaching of the word. Really they were miracles of God’s redeeming grace. After many years a lot of those people still continue having kept the faith. But sadly some after many years genuine service fell away and departed from the faith. I have also seen the damage done by those preaching a legalistic “saved by Grace through faith alone” or “once saved always saved” doctrine and sadly they showed none of the love and compassion of the gospel. They were aggressive and adamant and that turned many away. I personally know one man who never goes to church shows none of the love and is aggressive to the point of arrogance. He spends his life perusing worldly events and he simply can’t make friends because of his attitude. He still preaches the Calvinistic “once saved always saved.”

 

[Yarddog]

How awful. I remember laying down in bed when I was RC and sweating hell.

That is what happens to those weak in faith.

I always had to ask myself if I was good enough to get to heaven.

No, you were not but Jesus took care of that. He did the work which none of us could do. It is up to us to trust in that work.

I realized that I was not and consequently needed a savior that would always keeps His promises. Jesus Christ is that savior.

That is correct. Jesus is that savior and keeps his promise but that doesn't mean that we keep our faith in his promise.

John 6
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

As Jesus says, and as I underlined, will have eternal life. That is future tense not present. Jesus confirms this future tense when he says "I am coming quickly. Hold fast to what you have, so that no one may take your crown. “The victor I will make into a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will never leave it again. On him I will inscribe the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, as well as my new name." (Rev. 2:11-12)

I no longer live in fear of being cast out simply because I am not good enough. I might let go of Jesus hand at times but He will never let go of mine.

I do not live in fear either. Faith is not about fear but it is about trusting even when all else tells you that something cannot be. I trust Jesus and do not question why or what what might be. I trust.

I am ecstatic that you are living in faith in our Lord but I am one who needed to have my self pride removed by going through the trials of Job. I pray that God humbles my spirit on a daily basis so that I never believe that I cannot fall.

Jesus is my Lord and my salvation. He has saved me from the raging storm and through walking in God's Holy Spirit, I put my faith in Jesus to help me follow the path laid out before me so that I may remain faithful and find my salvation.

Praise God,
YD

 

[Yarddog]

Because the journey of faith is an adventure.

And more importantly, because Jesus can be trusted.

-CryptoLutheran

Praise God and his Son who makes this a most wonderful adventure.

 

[Lindas Place]

John 5:24
“I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

 

[Whisper of Hope]

John 5:24
“I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

1 John 5:9-13: "If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God."

Linda, I know you will share my sentiments here when I say that I would much rather believe and trust God and take Him at His Word when He said that nothing can separate us from Him nor scratch us from His hand.

 

[Yarddog]

John 5:24
“I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

Continue in faith and don't slip back across into death. Remember the words of Revelation.

 

[Lindas Place]

Continue in faith and don't slip back across into death. Remember the words of Revelation.

Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. 2 Corinthians 1:21-22

 

[Lindas Place]

1 John 5:9-13: "If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God."

Linda, I know you will share my sentiments here when I say that I would much rather believe and trust God and take Him at His Word when He said that nothing can separate us from Him nor scratch us from His hand.

Absolutely…

 

[Whisper of Hope]

Absolutely…

John 6:35-40: "And Jesus said to them, 'I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.'”

 

[Fireinfolding]

John says we know we have passed from death here....

1John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

Dont start hating your brother

1John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Ever notice death and darkness are used interchangeable alone the lines of death/darkness/ hate and life/light/ love?

 

[Lindas Place]

John says we know we have passed from death here....

1John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

Dont start hating your brother

1John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Ever notice death and darkness are used interchangeable alone the lines of death/darkness/ hate and life/light/ love?

And don't kill them like King David, the man after God's own heart did, when he committed adultery with the wife of a deeply loyal lieutenant and then had the man killed to hide his dark deed and then ignored God for almost a year. Though God's Spirit never once left him... He did lose the JOY of his salvation... and that not good.

 

[Whisper of Hope]

Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. 2 Corinthians 1:21-22

Amen! God promised us that if we believe and have faith in Jesus, He would forgive us, justify us, and redeem us through the blood of Jesus shed for us on the cross (Isaiah 1:18; Matthew 26:28; Romans 3:21-26; 5:1-11; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Ephesians 1:7-14; 2:13; Colossians 2:11-15; Hebrews 9:11-15; 10:1-22; Titus 3:4-7;1 Peter 1:18-21; 1 John 1:5-10; 2:1-2). Jesus bore our sins and nailed them to the cross, once and for all (Colossians 2:14; 1 Peter 2:24; 1 Peter 3:18). His sacrifice on the cross was sufficient enough to atone for our sins (Romans 3:25; Romans 5:8-9; Hebrews 7:27; 1 Peter 1:18-19; 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:10), because His suffering and death appeased God's wrath against sin (Isaiah 53:4-6; Romans 3:24-26; Romans 11:6; Hebrews 2:17; Hebrews 9:26; Hebrews 10:10-18; 1 Peter 2:24). We are not saved by our works, but by the grace of God through our faith in Jesus Christ (John 1:12-13; 3:16-18; 3:36; 4:14; 5:24; 6:26-27; 6:35-40; 6:47-51; 6:54; 10:27-29; 11:25-26; 12:44-46; 17:1-5; Romans 3:16-18; 21-26; 4:2-6; 5:1-11; 6:22-23; 8:1; 9:31-33; 10:9-10; 1 Corinthians 1:4-9; 2 Corinthians 5:17-19; Ephesians 1:13-14; 2:4-10; Colossians 1:13-14; 2:10; Galatians 2:16; 2:21; 3:4; Titus 1:2; Titus 3:4-7; 1 John 5:9-13; 1 John 5:20), in accordance with the riches of His grace (Ephesians 1:7-8). There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Romans 8:1).

John 3:15-21: "15 that WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM should not perish but have ETERNAL LIFE. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM should not perish but have EVERLASTING LIFE. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 He WHO BELIEVES IN HIM is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."

 

[Habakk]

John 5:24
“I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

To "hear," in this instance, means not the outward act of hearing, but to receive in a proper manner; to act upon it and be obedient to the words of our lord and saviour. This action results in the conclusion of being transformed from death into life. It’s not instant salvation like instant coffee. We are saved against that day if we continue.

Has or Hath everlasting life is refering to the state of man and not what is in his posetion at the time because the text is instructing us to believe not on him, but on the one who sent him, the Father. Why? because everlasting life; is in the hands of Christ and our continued walk with him by and in faith and hope.

 

[Lindas Place]

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory Ephesians 1:13-14

 

[Whisper of Hope]

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory Ephesians 1:13-14

Amen! Praise God!

Romans 1:16: "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile."