Question for Preterists

[coraline]

Jesus gives each believer his or her own spiritual work to do (Mark 13:34, Romans 12:6-8; 1 Corinthians 12:28-30; 1 Corinthians 12:8-10). And Jesus gives different believers different amounts of spiritual talents (Matthew 25:15). So it's not possible for all believers to do the same spiritual work for Jesus, or to accomplish the same amount for him. And so any one believer shouldn't judge any other believer for not doing the same spiritual work that he or she's doing, or for not accomplishing as much as he or she's accomplishing (Romans 14:4). Nor should any believer think that the spiritual work that Jesus has given him or her is unnecessary and not a real part of the operation of the church (1 Corinthians 12:14-30). But there's still no room for complacency, because for those believers who have been given much spiritual talent by God, much will be required of them by God (Luke 12:48b). And for those believers who haven't been given as much spiritual talent by God, they're still expected to accomplish something for him, and not sit back and do nothing at all for him (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).

The talents parable (Matthew 25:14-30) is about the judgment of the individuals in the church by their individual works, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 25:19-30, Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31). So Matthew 25:21,23 refers to obedient individuals in the church entering the joy of ruling on the earth with the Lord Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), which won't begin until after the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21). Matthew 25:30 refers to disobedient believers losing their salvation at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:48-51, Luke 12:45-46) and entering "the blackness of darkness for ever" (Jude 1:13), "to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever" (2 Peter 2:17).

Jesus isn't a hard taskmaster. He will never give believers more work to do for him than they can easily bear (Matthew 11:28-30). So if believers ever get stressed out that Jesus is asking them to do too much, it's not Jesus asking them to do whatever is stressing them out (Luke 10:40-42). They need to take a step back and ask Jesus what particular spiritual work he's actually asking them as individuals to do (Mark 13:34, Romans 12:6-8).

*******



Note that Revelation 21:12 refers to Israel's 12 tribes in its description of the bride of Christ in Revelation 21:9. And the bride of Christ is the church (Ephesians 5:30-32; 2 Corinthians 11:2).

Revelation 21:2,9,10 means that the physical structure of the literal city of New Jerusalem is a picture of the church. Something can be literal and at the same time symbolically picture something else, like how in Matthew 21:19 the fig tree was literal and at the same time its being without fruit symbolically pictured unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel being without fruit (Matthew 21:43).

Just as New Jerusalem's literal wall foundations have the names of the 12 apostles on them (Revelation 21:14), so the church's foundation is the apostles (Ephesians 2:20). And just as New Jerusalem's literal pearly gates have the names of Israel's 12 tribes on them (Revelation 21:12,21), so the church consists of Israel's 12 tribes.

For all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

New Jerusalem is a literal city 1,500 miles cubed (Revelation 21:16), with literal pearly gates and literal streets of gold (Revelation 21:21). It's God the Father's house in the 3rd heaven (Revelation 21:2-3, cf. 2 Corinthians 12:2b,4, Revelation 2:7b, Revelation 22:2,14), in which house Jesus left to prepare a place for the church (John 14:2). All those in the church, both Jews and Gentiles, have figuratively come to New Jerusalem by coming under the New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34), and which only the church comes under by believing in Jesus' New Covenant death on the Cross for our sins (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), the very heart of the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

The church looks for Jesus' return from heaven (Philippians 3:20) and his setting up of his physical kingdom on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). New Jerusalem won't descend from the 3rd heaven to the earth until after a new earth (a new surface of the earth) has been created (Revelation 21:1-4), sometime after the 1,000 years and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-15). The church will physically live and reign in New Jerusalem with God the Father and Jesus on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5).



That's right.

There's no such thing as the church age, for the church will continue in the world throughout all ages (Ephesians 3:21, John 17:15). The church will continue in the world throughout the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and then throughout the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), and then forever on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5).



Amen.

Presently, the kingdom of God is in heaven (2 Timothy 4:18, Hebrews 12:22-24), and is on the earth spiritually within Christians (Romans 14:17, Luke 17:21). In the future, the kingdom will come fully upon the earth as it is in heaven (Matthew 6:10). It will be physically (Luke 22:30, Matthew 19:28) on the earth (Revelation 5:10), first during the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21) and then on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-8).

Jesus' kingdom is Israel (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). That's why at his 2nd coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7) and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11), to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all the unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, for there are now no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

After Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which, Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the bodily resurrected church will reign on the earth with the returned Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).

Good grief. I can't even recognize the Bible in all that mumbo jumbo!

 

[Bible2]

shturt678 said in post 197:

btw please replace the fallacious "free-will" with the valid "enslaved-will."

What's meant by free will is that God lets people choose what they're going to do (Joshua 24:15, Deuteronomy 30:19, Isaiah 1:19-20; 1 Chronicles 28:9; 1 Peter 5:2, Philemon 1:14, Genesis 24:8).

Also, free will isn't (as is sometimes claimed) contradictory to God's omniscience. For God is definitely omniscient, because in him is found all knowledge (Colossians 2:2b-3). He's able to declare the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10), and his foreknowledge is determinate (Acts 2:23, Revelation 1:1). But his omniscience coexists with his giving people free will. He still lets people choose for themselves what they're going to do (e.g. Joshua 24:15, Deuteronomy 30:19, Isaiah 1:19-20).

An analogy for how people can have free will and yet God can already know what they're going to choose to do, would be a symphony conductor who wanted to make a film of a "Free Will Symphony" that sounded good enough to show off to the world. So he told his symphony musicians his plan, set up a movie camera in front of them, and said that each of them could start playing whatever he or she wanted for an hour. But when they all started playing, it sounded awful for the entire hour. It was utter cacophony. So the conductor sent them home and told them to come back the next day and try again. The next day sounded worse than the first. And the day after that was also bad. This went on day after day for months, until one day the most amazing sound arose from the symphony, a congeries of all the different melodies and rhythms that was unlike anything that had been heard before. So the conductor kept the movie of that day and showed it off to the world.

But when the symphony musicians began watching the movie at its world premiere, with all of the most famous musicians of the world seated all around them in the theater, some of the symphony musicians began to squirm in their seats. For example, one of the bass players had happened to choose that day (the day that the movie was made) just to stand there and not play anything. The movie showed him eating Twix, and just staring off into space for the whole hour. And one of the violin players had just happened to choose that day not to play anything either, but to file her nails and flip through a magazine.

After the movie was over, those two musicians, as well as some others who had been publicly mortified, filed a civil suit against the conductor for defamation of character. At the trial, they testified before the judge: "Before the movie was shown, we all had good reputations as fine musicians. Now we are the laughingstock of the musical world. Our careers might never recover from this. The conductor knew before he showed the movie to the world that it would result in our ruin, and yet he showed it anyway. Clearly, his intent was malicious, and we seek damages".

But then the conductor testified: "Your honor, I honestly had no malice toward these musicians. The procedure of making the film was quite random. We made scores of different films, and in many of them, these musicians played brilliantly. But the sound of the symphony as a whole on those days was unbearable to listen to, so those films had to be rejected. It was just by chance that the one day that sounded wonderful, they happened to have made fools of themselves by their own free will. They themselves chose to act that way that day. I didn't make them do anything".

The judge agreed and dismissed the case. He told the musicians: "I'm sorry, but you don't really have a leg to stand on. For you knew that the conductor was making a film of that day, and that the plan was to show it to the world if it sounded good. It's your own fault that you chose to act the way that you did that day" (cf. James 1:13-15).

Similar to this analogy, before God created the world, he could have reviewed an infinite number of different threads (as it were) of all the possible free-willed sequences of events that could occur in the world, based on all the possible choices each individual could make during his or her lifetime. For example, in one thread, right after God created Adam, Adam could have chosen first to walk around the south side of the Garden of Eden, whereas in another thread Adam chose first to walk around the north side, and in another he chose first just to sit on the grass and look at the trees, and so on, through all the different possibilities for his first choice, and then through all the different possibilities for all his subsequent choices, and then through all the possible choices made by everyone else from the beginning of the world to the end of it. After reviewing the infinite number of threads of all the possible sequences of free-willed choices, God could have chosen to create, to bring into actual existence, that one thread that would give him the best opportunity to eternally show both his wrath and his mercy (Romans 9:22-23).

Also similar to the movie analogy is the scientific idea of the "block universe", meaning that time, from the viewpoint of physics in itself (i.e. outside of how humans happen to experience time) there's no arrow of time: The past, present, and future of all space in the universe exist as one block of a four-dimensional space-time. So the past still exists, and the future already exists. This is similar to how all the frames of a film, all its moments of time, exist at the same time in one reel of film, yet we humans happen to experience a film only one frame at a time, and in one direction. Also, with regard to the "block universe", quantum-level experiments have shown that the future determines the past as much as the past determines the future. So from a Christian viewpoint, this means that we can pray for God's will to be done in the past, just as we can pray for it to be done in the future. For example, if we remember a close call in our past where we just barely escaped a car accident, we can presently pray that God would keep us from having that accident, and this could help us to avoid it. That is, we could have avoided it because years later we prayed to avoid it.

 

[Bible2]

ebedmelech said in post 198:

God NEVER speaks of "initial salvation"...

Note that the ideas of initial salvation and ultimate salvation don't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "initial salvation" and "ultimate salvation" in order for them to be true and supported by scripture, just as, for example, the ideas of the unity of God and the Trinity don't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "the unity" and "the Trinity" in order for them to be true and supported by scripture (e.g. John 10:30, John 1:1,14, Isaiah 45:5, Matthew 28:19, Acts 5:3-4).

In the Bible itself, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is by grace through faith without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5). But other passages show that initially saved people must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they're to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a). For believers must actually continue to do righteous deeds if they're to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there's no assurance that believers will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Also, in the Bible itself, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is the salvation that Christians have now (Ephesians 2:5) in their mortal bodies, whereas ultimate salvation is that salvation which is ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5) and is always drawing nearer (Romans 13:11), that salvation which Christians are still hoping for (1 Thessalonians 5:8, Romans 8:23-25, Mark 10:30), and which Jesus will bring to obedient Christians at his 2nd coming (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 5:9), when he will resurrect (if dead) or change (if alive) their mortal bodies into immortal, physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:16), just like the immortal, physical body that he obtained at his resurrection (Philippians 3:20-21, Luke 24:39; 1 John 3:2, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:11-14).

~

Initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 1 Peter 2:2), is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation, just as the birth of an infant is both present life and a contract for life as an adult. Just as children can know that they're actually alive, so initially saved people can know that they're actually saved. And just as an infant can't "give back" his being born, so a born-again person can't "give back" his being born again, his being initially saved. But just as there's no assurance that children will reach adulthood, so there's no assurance that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation. Just as there are conditions placed on children, like not running into traffic and not drinking the Drano under the sink, if they're to reach adulthood, so there are conditions placed on the born-again, the initially saved, if they're to obtain ultimate salvation:

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only "if" they continue in the faith to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to depart from the faith, to no longer believe, to commit apostasy (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4; 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Hebrews 3:12, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, even if they do continue in the faith, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also patiently continue to the end in obedience and good works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9; 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14; 1 John 2:17b), as in works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Also, even if they do continue in faith and good works of faith, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also continue to repent from every sin that they might commit, to the end (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 7:22-23, Galatians 5:19-21). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to commit unrepentant sin, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Luke 12:45-46; 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13; 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus' death for our sins (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (cf. Acts 22:16a).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they partake of the divine flesh and blood of communion (John 6:53, Matthew 26:26-28; 1 Corinthians 10:16; 1 Corinthians 11:27-30). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (cf. John 6:60,66).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they forgive everyone for every wrong (Matthew 6:14-15). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 18:21-35).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do all that they can (Romans 12:18) to make reparations to and peace with everyone whom they've ever wronged (Matthew 5:23-26, cf. Acts 24:16). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that.

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they help Christians in need (Matthew 25:34-46). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (3 John 1:10b).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they provide for their families (1 Timothy 5:8). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that.

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't commit the unforgivable sin, which is blaspheming the Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29). An example of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is saying that an act performed by the power of the Holy Spirit (e.g. Matthew 12:28) is performed by Satan (Mark 3:22-30). There's no assurance that initially saved people will never choose to say that (cf. 1 Corinthians 14:39b; 1 Thessalonians 5:19).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't remove words from the book of Revelation, and then publish the altered text as if it were the original, without repentance (Revelation 22:19). There's no assurance that they will never choose to do that (cf. 2 Corinthians 4:2).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't worship the future Antichrist and his image, and willingly receive his mark on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 14:9-12, Revelation 13:16-18). There's no assurance that they won't choose to do that (1 Timothy 4:1).

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they continue in God's goodness to the end (Romans 11:20-22). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Luke 12:45-46).

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Revelation 21:7-8).

All this is said not to engender any unhealthy fear in believers, but the healthy fear which all believers are supposed to have (e.g. Romans 11:20-22).

And all this is said not to engender any despair in believers, but the healthy, close-clinging to the person of Jesus himself, which all believers must continue in (John 15:4-6). For while God makes it possible for initially saved people to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13) toward their ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Philippians 2:12b, Matthew 7:21), this is possible only so long as they continue to abide in Jesus. For on their own, apart from Jesus, they can't do anything good (John 15:4-5).

ebedmelech said in post 198:

You cant use Matthew 24:12, because Matthew 24:13 makes my point:
13 But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

Future tense, referring to ultimate salvation.

ebedmelech said in post 198:

Hebrews 10:26 is making the point believers don't go on willfully sinning.

Hebrews 10:26-29 shows that truly saved people, people who have truly been sanctified by Jesus' sacrificial blood (Hebrews 10:29), which sanctification requires faith (Acts 26:18b, cf. Romans 3:25-26), can, after they get saved, wrongly employ their free will to commit sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26). By doing this, these saved people are unwittingly trampling on Jesus and his sacrificial blood and doing despite to the Spirit of grace (Hebrews 10:29), turning the grace of God into lasciviousness (Jude 1:4), so that their ultimate fate will be worse than if they had never been saved at all (2 Peter 2:20-22). Even though Jesus' sacrificial blood is sufficient to forgive all sins (1 John 2:2), it actually forgives only the sins of believers that are past (Romans 3:25-26), as in sins which have been repented from and confessed to God (1 John 1:9,7). Jesus' sacrificial blood doesn't remit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29). So a saved person can in the end lose his salvation if he wrongly employs his free will to commit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46).

Some Christians think that Hebrews 10:26-29 isn't for Christians. But the immediate context of Hebrews 10:26-29 is Hebrews 10:25, which is addressing "we" saved people. Hebrews 10:25-29 is the same idea as Hebrews 3:13: Saved people need to gather together and exhort each other so that no saved person will fall into any unrepentant sin. For any unrepentant sin will ultimately result in the loss of salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 7:22-23, Galatians 5:19-21; 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13; 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

One way that a saved person could come to desire to commit sin without repentance would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable, and so fulfilling (in the short term), that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he becomes so infatuated with his sin that he can no longer endure the sound doctrine of the Bible (such as the doctrine of Hebrews 10:26-29), but instead latches onto a mistaken, man-made teaching which contradicts the Bible (2 Timothy 4:3-4), such as the mistaken teaching which assures believers that there's no way that they can ever lose their salvation, even if they sin without repentance.

ebedmelech said in post 198:

Hebrews 6:4-9...we've been through...it's hypothetical.

Note that Hebrews 6:4-9 isn't hypothetical, but shows that even saved people, who have repented and become partakers of the Holy Spirit, can ultimately lose their salvation because of subsequently wrongly employing their free will to "fall away", to commit apostasy, to stop believing (like in Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and 2 Thessalonians 2:3), just as other scriptures show the same thing (John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

Hebrews 6:9 simply means that the writer of the book of Hebrews was persuaded that the first century AD believers he was originally addressing in his letter weren't apostate.

 

[coraline]

This thread shouldn't be hijacked way off topic.

The original poster wasn't asking about salvation issues in general. (soteriology)

Don't confound this thread by going off topic with endless salvation issues.

The O.P. asked preterists regarding eschatology issues .

That's how i read it.

Bible2, you are way off topic here!

 

[shturt678]

This thread shouldn't be hijacked way off topic.

The original poster wasn't asking about salvation issues in general. (soteriology)

Don't confound this thread by going off topic with endless salvation issues.

The O.P. asked preterists regarding eschatology issues .

That's how i read it.

Bible2, you are way off topic here!

.......just trying to hijack you from non-denominational to Lutheran. Just ol' old Lutheran Jack.

 

[ebedmelech]

Note that the ideas of initial salvation and ultimate salvation don't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "initial salvation" and "ultimate salvation" in order for them to be true and supported by scripture, just as, for example, the ideas of the unity of God and the Trinity don't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "the unity" and "the Trinity" in order for them to be true and supported by scripture (e.g. John 10:30, John 1:1,14, Isaiah 45:5, Matthew 28:19, Acts 5:3-4).

In the Bible itself, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is by grace through faith without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5). But other passages show that initially saved people must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they're to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a). For believers must actually continue to do righteous deeds if they're to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there's no assurance that believers will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Also, in the Bible itself, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is the salvation that Christians have now (Ephesians 2:5) in their mortal bodies, whereas ultimate salvation is that salvation which is ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5) and is always drawing nearer (Romans 13:11), that salvation which Christians are still hoping for (1 Thessalonians 5:8, Romans 8:23-25, Mark 10:30), and which Jesus will bring to obedient Christians at his 2nd coming (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 5:9), when he will resurrect (if dead) or change (if alive) their mortal bodies into immortal, physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:16), just like the immortal, physical body that he obtained at his resurrection (Philippians 3:20-21, Luke 24:39; 1 John 3:2, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:11-14).

~

Initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 1 Peter 2:2), is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation, just as the birth of an infant is both present life and a contract for life as an adult. Just as children can know that they're actually alive, so initially saved people can know that they're actually saved. And just as an infant can't "give back" his being born, so a born-again person can't "give back" his being born again, his being initially saved. But just as there's no assurance that children will reach adulthood, so there's no assurance that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation. Just as there are conditions placed on children, like not running into traffic and not drinking the Drano under the sink, if they're to reach adulthood, so there are conditions placed on the born-again, the initially saved, if they're to obtain ultimate salvation:

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only "if" they continue in the faith to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to depart from the faith, to no longer believe, to commit apostasy (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4; 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Hebrews 3:12, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, even if they do continue in the faith, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also patiently continue to the end in obedience and good works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9; 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14; 1 John 2:17b), as in works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Also, even if they do continue in faith and good works of faith, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also continue to repent from every sin that they might commit, to the end (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 7:22-23, Galatians 5:19-21). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to commit unrepentant sin, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Luke 12:45-46; 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13; 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus' death for our sins (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (cf. Acts 22:16a).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they partake of the divine flesh and blood of communion (John 6:53, Matthew 26:26-28; 1 Corinthians 10:16; 1 Corinthians 11:27-30). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (cf. John 6:60,66).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they forgive everyone for every wrong (Matthew 6:14-15). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 18:21-35).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do all that they can (Romans 12:18) to make reparations to and peace with everyone whom they've ever wronged (Matthew 5:23-26, cf. Acts 24:16). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that.

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they help Christians in need (Matthew 25:34-46). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (3 John 1:10b).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they provide for their families (1 Timothy 5:8). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that.

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't commit the unforgivable sin, which is blaspheming the Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29). An example of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is saying that an act performed by the power of the Holy Spirit (e.g. Matthew 12:28) is performed by Satan (Mark 3:22-30). There's no assurance that initially saved people will never choose to say that (cf. 1 Corinthians 14:39b; 1 Thessalonians 5:19).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't remove words from the book of Revelation, and then publish the altered text as if it were the original, without repentance (Revelation 22:19). There's no assurance that they will never choose to do that (cf. 2 Corinthians 4:2).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't worship the future Antichrist and his image, and willingly receive his mark on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 14:9-12, Revelation 13:16-18). There's no assurance that they won't choose to do that (1 Timothy 4:1).

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they continue in God's goodness to the end (Romans 11:20-22). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Luke 12:45-46).

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Revelation 21:7-8).

All this is said not to engender any unhealthy fear in believers, but the healthy fear which all believers are supposed to have (e.g. Romans 11:20-22).

And all this is said not to engender any despair in believers, but the healthy, close-clinging to the person of Jesus himself, which all believers must continue in (John 15:4-6). For while God makes it possible for initially saved people to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13) toward their ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Philippians 2:12b, Matthew 7:21), this is possible only so long as they continue to abide in Jesus. For on their own, apart from Jesus, they can't do anything good (John 15:4-5).



Future tense, referring to ultimate salvation.



Hebrews 10:26-29 shows that truly saved people, people who have truly been sanctified by Jesus' sacrificial blood (Hebrews 10:29), which sanctification requires faith (Acts 26:18b, cf. Romans 3:25-26), can, after they get saved, wrongly employ their free will to commit sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26). By doing this, these saved people are unwittingly trampling on Jesus and his sacrificial blood and doing despite to the Spirit of grace (Hebrews 10:29), turning the grace of God into lasciviousness (Jude 1:4), so that their ultimate fate will be worse than if they had never been saved at all (2 Peter 2:20-22). Even though Jesus' sacrificial blood is sufficient to forgive all sins (1 John 2:2), it actually forgives only the sins of believers that are past (Romans 3:25-26), as in sins which have been repented from and confessed to God (1 John 1:9,7). Jesus' sacrificial blood doesn't remit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29). So a saved person can in the end lose his salvation if he wrongly employs his free will to commit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46).

Some Christians think that Hebrews 10:26-29 isn't for Christians. But the immediate context of Hebrews 10:26-29 is Hebrews 10:25, which is addressing "we" saved people. Hebrews 10:25-29 is the same idea as Hebrews 3:13: Saved people need to gather together and exhort each other so that no saved person will fall into any unrepentant sin. For any unrepentant sin will ultimately result in the loss of salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 7:22-23, Galatians 5:19-21; 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13; 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

One way that a saved person could come to desire to commit sin without repentance would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable, and so fulfilling (in the short term), that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he becomes so infatuated with his sin that he can no longer endure the sound doctrine of the Bible (such as the doctrine of Hebrews 10:26-29), but instead latches onto a mistaken, man-made teaching which contradicts the Bible (2 Timothy 4:3-4), such as the mistaken teaching which assures believers that there's no way that they can ever lose their salvation, even if they sin without repentance.



Note that Hebrews 6:4-9 isn't hypothetical, but shows that even saved people, who have repented and become partakers of the Holy Spirit, can ultimately lose their salvation because of subsequently wrongly employing their free will to "fall away", to commit apostasy, to stop believing (like in Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and 2 Thessalonians 2:3), just as other scriptures show the same thing (John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

Hebrews 6:9 simply means that the writer of the book of Hebrews was persuaded that the first century AD believers he was originally addressing in his letter weren't apostate.

Not gonna keep doing this with you Bible2. Run with what you think...and I will do the same...but it's clear this has gone as far as it can. We won't agree.

 

[shturt678]

What's meant by free will is that God lets people choose what they're going to do (Joshua 24:15, Deuteronomy 30:19, Isaiah 1:19-20; 1 Chronicles 28:9; 1 Peter 5:2, Philemon 1:14, Genesis 24:8).

Also, free will isn't (as is sometimes claimed) contradictory to God's omniscience. For God is definitely omniscient, because in him is found all knowledge (Colossians 2:2b-3). He's able to declare the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10), and his foreknowledge is determinate (Acts 2:23, Revelation 1:1). But his omniscience coexists with his giving people free will. He still lets people choose for themselves what they're going to do (e.g. Joshua 24:15, Deuteronomy 30:19, Isaiah 1:19-20).

An analogy for how people can have free will and yet God can already know what they're going to choose to do, would be a symphony conductor who wanted to make a film of a "Free Will Symphony" that sounded good enough to show off to the world. So he told his symphony musicians his plan, set up a movie camera in front of them, and said that each of them could start playing whatever he or she wanted for an hour. But when they all started playing, it sounded awful for the entire hour. It was utter cacophony. So the conductor sent them home and told them to come back the next day and try again. The next day sounded worse than the first. And the day after that was also bad. This went on day after day for months, until one day the most amazing sound arose from the symphony, a congeries of all the different melodies and rhythms that was unlike anything that had been heard before. So the conductor kept the movie of that day and showed it off to the world.

Deleted rest for clarity only, ie, have a high respect for you and your words Bible2

More narrowly dealing with salvation, all have an "enslaved-will." All salvation issues happens by God's necessity. We have absolutely no power to apply ourselves to the things that make for salvation. Eg, God knew, even before creation, who would reject his Truth, even on these threads, when He places it right in front of their noses. My heart goes out to you as any Truth from God today would absolutely appear as insane to utterly fallacious lies. Just ol' old Lutheran Jack trying to hijack you over to Lutheranism.

 

[shturt678]

What's meant by free will is that God lets people choose what they're going to do (Joshua 24:15, Deuteronomy 30:19, Isaiah 1:19-20; 1 Chronicles 28:9; 1 Peter 5:2, Philemon 1:14, Genesis 24:8).

Also, free will isn't (as is sometimes claimed) contradictory to God's omniscience. For God is definitely omniscient, because in him is found all knowledge (Colossians 2:2b-3). He's able to declare the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10), and his foreknowledge is determinate (Acts 2:23, Revelation 1:1). But his omniscience coexists with his giving people free will. He still lets people choose for themselves what they're going to do (e.g. Joshua 24:15, Deuteronomy 30:19, Isaiah 1:19-20).

An analogy for how people can have free will and yet God can already know what they're going to choose to do, would be a symphony conductor who wanted to make a film of a "Free Will Symphony" that sounded good enough to show off to the world. So he told his symphony musicians his plan, set up a movie camera in front of them, and said that each of them could start playing whatever he or she wanted for an hour. But when they all started playing, it sounded awful for the entire hour. It was utter cacophony. So the conductor sent them home and told them to come back the next day and try again. The next day sounded worse than the first. And the day after that was also bad. This went on day after day for months, until one day the most amazing sound arose from the symphony, a congeries of all the different melodies and rhythms that was unlike anything that had been heard before. So the conductor kept the movie of that day and showed it off to the world.

Deleted rest for clarity only, ie, have a high respect for you and your words Bible2

More narrowly - dealing with salvation, all have an "enslaved-will." All salvation issues happens by God's necessity. We have absolutely no power to apply ourselves to the things that make for salvation. Eg, God knew, even before creation, who would reject his Truth, even on these threads, when He places it right in front of their noses. My heart goes out to you as any Truth from God today would absolutely appear as insane to utterly fallacious lies. Just ol' old Lutheran Jack trying to hijack you over to Lutheranism.

 

[coraline]

.......just trying to hijack you from non-denominational to Lutheran. Just ol' old Lutheran Jack.

Why do you keep on posting in this thread?

Are you a preterist? Even partially?

Read the O.P. question.

This thread got hijacked to a salvation issue bc of certain posters judging other Christians salvation bc they have a different opinion!

And now you want to hijack this thread bc you want to proselytize other Christians to being Lutherans!

Why can you not reply to the O.P. question or not at all?

Abide by some rules & stop trolling here!

 

[shturt678]

Why do you keep on posting in this thread?

Are you a preterist? Even partially?

Read the O.P. question.

This thread got hijacked to a salvation issue bc of certain posters judging other Christians salvation bc they have a different opinion!

And now you want to hijack this thread bc you want to proselytize other Christians to being Lutherans!

Why can you not reply to the O.P. question or not at all?

Abide by some rules & stop trolling here!

I'll apologize and opt out

 

[coraline]

Originally Posted by Houly

If it's figurative though, why go through and explain all the dimensions and materials as if it's a literal city? This is the same reason I think Ezekiel's Temple will be a literal building; why get into detail about all the measurements if it's figurative?​

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I will begin with the study from the apostolic preterist site. We can go through the interpretation verse by verse too. It's too long to read at once. .

The New Jerusalem​

We read about the New Jerusalem in Revelation 21and 22. As we go through the description given of the New Jerusalem we must remember that no scripture is of a private interpretation. The Bible will clearly tell us what or who the New Jerusalem represents. We don’t have to guess we just need to pray with an honest and sincere heart that the Lord open our spiritual eyes to the truth of His Word.
Many people take this passage literally. Some believe that we will dwell in a literal place approximately 1500 miles square by 1500 miles high. Some believe we will literally walk on streets of pure gold and the gates will be of actual pearls. We must use the Bible to understand and interpret it’s own symbols. We must, in some cases, disregard our preconceived ideas and let the Bible explain itself. God’s ways are not our ways. We see the true meaning of these symbols as we study the Word of God. Symbolic language is used in describing Jesus. For example we can read how Jesus was referred to as the Lamb, the Branch, the Root, or the Lion. We know that Christ did not come as a literal branch or lamb. He was God in the flesh of a human being. Other passages of the Bible and especially Revelation use symbols to describe things for us. In Revelation 13 we see a seven-head ten-horned beast arise out of the sea. No one believes that this dreadful beast will literally rise out of the sea, at least I hope not. The New Jerusalem is no different. God is using language that we can relate to in describing something to us. God is not interested in literal gold, pearls, etc. The things important to God are spiritual in essence and not material. For our finite minds, to have something to relate to, God gives us the symbolic description of the New Jerusalem. We will now begin to look into what the Bible has to say about the New Jerusalem by comparing scripture to scripture. Not what we think, but what the Bible says.
----------------------------------------------------------------
I haven't receive any comment by you on this.

I was wondering if you are reevaluating, since it was in your thread on Ezekiel's temple that I showed the brick & mortar was fulfilled by Herod the great, & then in the New Covenant, the temple ultimately fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

Would you like me to proceed with my New Jerusalem interpretation?

 

[Interplanner]

To Houly,
I find the exceptions more compelling than the details. Like the Spirit of God being poured out. But in those decimated times in which Ezek wrote, what better way to show how grand the new age would be in Christ.

 

[Bible2]

shturt678 said in post 207:

All salvation issues happens by God's necessity. We have absolutely no power to apply ourselves to the things that make for salvation.

That's right, with regard to initial salvation. For the elect are those individuals who were chosen (elected) and predestinated by God before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13), before they were born (Romans 9:11-24), to become initially saved at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b). This initial salvation is possible only because of Jesus' sacrifice (Romans 3:25-26), which was also foreordained by God before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8; 1 Peter 1:19-20).

Everyone on his own is wholly corrupt (Romans 3:9-12), and so it's impossible for people on their own to ever believe in Jesus and the gospel and be initially saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31; 1 John 5:13) through their own will (Romans 9:16, John 1:13, John 6:65) or their own intellect (1 Corinthians 1:18 to 2:16). Unsaved people can't understand the gospel (1 Corinthians 2:14; 1 Corinthians 1:18) because only initially saved people, who have received the miraculous gift of some measure of God's own Spirit, can understand it (1 Corinthians 2:11-16).

The nonelect can't ever believe in Jesus and the gospel and be initially saved, even when they're shown the truth (John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42), because the ability to believe in Jesus and the gospel comes only to the elect (Acts 13:48b) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2) as the elect read (or hear) God's Word the Bible (Romans 10:17, Acts 13:48, Acts 26:22-23), just as the ability to repent comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18). Satan blinds the minds of unbelievers so that on their own they can't repent and acknowledge the truth of God's Word (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Timothy 2:25-26).

 

[coraline]

That's right, with regard to initial salvation. For the elect are those individuals who were chosen (elected) and predestinated by God before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13), before they were born (Romans 9:11-24), to become initially saved at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b). This initial salvation is possible only because of Jesus' sacrifice (Romans 3:25-26), which was also foreordained by God before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8; 1 Peter 1:19-20).

Everyone on his own is wholly corrupt (Romans 3:9-12), and so it's impossible for people on their own to ever believe in Jesus and the gospel and be initially saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31; 1 John 5:13) through their own will (Romans 9:16, John 1:13, John 6:65) or their own intellect (1 Corinthians 1:18 to 2:16). Unsaved people can't understand the gospel (1 Corinthians 2:14; 1 Corinthians 1:18) because only initially saved people, who have received the miraculous gift of some measure of God's own Spirit, can understand it (1 Corinthians 2:11-16).

The nonelect can't ever believe in Jesus and the gospel and be initially saved, even when they're shown the truth (John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42), because the ability to believe in Jesus and the gospel comes only to the elect (Acts 13:48b) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2) as the elect read (or hear) God's Word the Bible (Romans 10:17, Acts 13:48, Acts 26:22-23), just as the ability to repent comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18). Satan blinds the minds of unbelievers so that on their own they can't repent and acknowledge the truth of God's Word (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Timothy 2:25-26).

Way off topic.

Try responding to the O.P.'s question if you are at least a partial preterist.

 

[interpreter]

You consider Revelation (or most of it) fulfilled, but do you still expect a future appointed Day of the Lord? If so, what do you expect it to bring: an actual return of Jesus and the establishment of a physical kingdom, or the immediate re-creation of the heavens and the earth, or neither, or something else?

24 thrones will rule with Jesus for a thousand years. They exist now. Soon, in the Battle of Ar Mageddon now unfolding, the Satanic beast of the Revelation will be so soundly defeated that it won't be heard from for a thousand years, allowing 24 Christian thrones to rule the earth in peace for a thousand years.

 

[Houly]

.

 

[coraline]

24 thrones will rule with Jesus for a thousand years. They exist now. Soon, in the Battle of Ar Mageddon now unfolding, the Satanic beast of the Revelation will be so soundly defeated that it won't be heard from for a thousand years, allowing 24 Christian thrones to rule the earth in peace for a thousand years.

I thought Christ already left us His peace?

Praise God!

 

[interpreter]

I thought Christ already left us His peace?

Praise God!

I'm just telling you what the Revelation says.

 

[coraline]

I'm just telling you what the Revelation says.

Hmm. I have 3 Bible versions, and none of them say what your post says.

I saw also before a mistake in your signature, which is inaccurate & doesn't really make any sense as you have it read. Now I have the opportunity to "tell" you about it......
What makes sense is how it is exactly written: (Rev.19:10)
For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

Adding words or inaccurate reading of of the Text contributes to wrong Biblical hermeneutics (theories & principles for interpreting scripture)

Just sayin' brother!