Question about Islamic Belief

[Buccaneer]

I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of MASHIYACH unto another gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of MASHIYACH.

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

10 For do I now persuade men, or ELOHIYM? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of MASHIYACH.

.

Tradition says Gabrielle recited Quaran to Mohammad. Im not saying either way, but it is possible that this angel could have been an imposter. maybe he was maybe he wasnt.

 

[markie4u2001]

Somebody said a lot of scholars don't even believe Jesus existed, i was looking for their post so i could quote it. No matter what else they think about Jesus I think most historians agree that he existed.Main articles: Hhttp://www.recipeland.com/encyclopaedia/index.php/Jesusistoricity of Jesus, Jesus and textual evidence

The written sources for knowledge about Jesus's life are Roman and Hebrew historical accounts like Josephus, the four canonical Gospels and several non-canonical gospels. Most historians, secular or otherwise, agree that the source documents on which the four canonical Gospels are based were written within living memory of Jesus's lifetime. They therefore accept that the accounts of the life of Jesus in those Gospels provide a reasonable basis of evidence, by the standards of ancient history, for the historical existence of Jesus and the basic facts of his life and death. A minority of historians argue that no such person as Jesus ever existed.

 

[Muslim]

If Jesus is a man then he is liar deserving no respect or a lunatic but NOT a prohphet to be honoured and respected. That option simply isn't open to you. His teachings are invalid.

What are you talking about. All prophets are men. Unless you believe that prophets are super human or something.

 

[Muslim]

Somebody said a lot of scholars don't even believe Jesus existed, i was looking for their post so i could quote it. No matter what else they think about Jesus I think most historians agree that he existed.Main articles: Hhttp://www.recipeland.com/encyclopaedia/index.php/Jesusistoricity of Jesus, Jesus and textual evidence

The written sources for knowledge about Jesus's life are Roman and Hebrew historical accounts like Josephus, the four canonical Gospels and several non-canonical gospels. Most historians, secular or otherwise, agree that the source documents on which the four canonical Gospels are based were written within living memory of Jesus's lifetime. They therefore accept that the accounts of the life of Jesus in those Gospels provide a reasonable basis of evidence, by the standards of ancient history, for the historical existence of Jesus and the basic facts of his life and death. A minority of historians argue that no such person as Jesus ever existed.

Well you can rest assured that he did indeed exist. Who cares what a few historians say. All they can go by are things which are in existance today. They have no way of knowing exactly what went on 2000 years ago.

 

[peaceful soul]

What are you talking about. All prophets are men. Unless you believe that prophets are super human or something.

Perhaps this will help you to understand:

Num 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

In other words, God has integrity.

 

[Muslim]

Perhaps this will help you to understand:

Num 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

In other words, God has integrity.

Yes, I understand the Christian viewpoint of Jesus. I was making a statement that the Jesus in Islam is a man. Muslims do not consider him to be God, or the son of God, but only a richeous prophet and messenger of God. Also, men have integrity. Prophets don't lie, but they are not above repenting to God. The prophet Muhammad used to ask God for forgiveness more than 100 times a day even though he was sinless.

 

[Eternal_Believer]

Anyway i dont wanna argue reasoning because you only answered back 1 or 2 points i made yet u never did answer the question u answered to the point.

You only addressed the adultery issue which doesnt justify anything ok.

If your God has 70 wives, clearly hes a fornicator and adulterer who has lusts of the flesh.

And Jacob had 2 wives before the law was given to have 1.





And my main point here is.
What did your god ever do for you?
How do you know him in any personal way.
You claim hes merciful? Whats mercy let me ask you first.
Why do you need mercy?
You have never experienced your god in a personal way or in any way.
Neither do you have proof that he exists.
When you are broken and hurt you dont turn to him.



Yet I can say My God came to me to touch me and let me know He is God.
Jesus Christ touched my Life and planted His Holy Seed of the New Adamic Nature in me.
My Life is totally different.
I dont lust or hate or do many things of my former evil conduct.
I can feel His presence.
And I just know That Jesus Christ is God. He is the Son of God and yet God himself. His Father is my Father who loves me so much and i know him to a degree and I know the Holy Spirit.



But your religion muslims is dead. You dont know the god whom you serve and dont know if he exists. And i want to make a point. Your Jihad is motivated by the works of the flesh. Lewdness, revelry, drunkeness, Easy way out of sins, uncleaness, fornicating.

And though you practice good works it does not save.
You say submission to God.
Why do you submit?
Because my dad's a muslim...

Can you say you LOVE your God? and i really mean deep LOVE equal or more than your most loved human being.
But then how can you love someone whom you dont know?

Finally How many of you can say you know your God.
Your Prayer is MECHANICAL.
Not dynamic.
Your talking to yourselves.
And you derive your arguments from Some1 elses experience.
If you arent blindly following the crowd then tell me what do you seek to find in Islam.
Wives? unlimited alchohol? LUSTS OF THE FLESH!
I can say i am a Christian not because i follow a crowd but because I experienced MY GOD. God the Father(In no way affiliated with your god), The Lord Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit. 3 in 1.

If i ask you why u are a muslim. Its because you were born into a muslim family.
Why would ANYBODY want to be a muslim? Give me a reason. You dont get to know your God. Prayer is pouring out your soul and communicating with the Creator God.

But you probably dont pour out your soul and you cant communicate with someone who doesnt exist. And you might want to dispute that but i say to you. DID YOU EVER COMMUNICATE WITH YOUR god?
nono dont lie to me i know u didnt.


To the moderators: If you wanna ban me for this go ahead.
No one said its easy being a Christian. Hey if you being a Christian arent getting persecuted then i doubt your statement.

 

[peaceful soul]

originally posted by Muslim

Yes, I understand the Christian viewpoint of Jesus. I was making a statement that the Jesus in Islam is a man.

That is your experience because your version of Jesus is an intellectual experience, whereas mine is a spiritual experience that manifests the truths of the Bible. I get to see the truthfulness of scriputre whereas you just get to read and speculate. Experience counts here.

Muslims do not consider him to be God, or the son of God, but only a richeous prophet and messenger of God.

Once again, you see it that way because of what your book tells you. If your book is missing the most important points about Jesus, you can not have the relationship that I share with Him. Fair enough?

Also, men have integrity.

I never said that they did not, but their integrity is subjected to circumstances in most cases. God teaches us to not put our faith in the works of man or follow them by emulation, because man will eventually lead our souls to destruction. Man has a corrupt nature and seeks to please himself rather than God.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Prophets don't lie, but they are not above repenting to God.

The prophet Muhammad used to ask God for forgiveness more than 100 times a day even though he was sinless.

That is so illogical to say. Evidently Mohammad does not understand the way that God works. Why does he have to ask so many times? Does not God hear him the 1st time?

If you are without sin, there is no need to ask for forgiveness. In that case, it would be a sin to ask for forgiveness.

Prophets sin and are just as capable of lying as you and me - except for one, Christ. He was supernatural because He was God incarnate. Prophets however, can not lie when they are carrying out God's missions. In those times, the Holy Spirit inspires them to do the will of God. As long as they do not resist the Spirit, they will not err. But, God is careful in whom He chooses for prophethood and considers this in their preparation.

It is a shame that you can not see that Mohammad was not sinless. Once a sin is committed, it can not be undone. It still stains the image of the person and still is an offense charged by God against that person. You do not understand what sin is and how offensive it is to God. Lying is a sin. A lie does not have to be verbal either.

 

[Muslim]

Thats a lot of questions. I will however answer the main ones, because I'm about to go to sleep soon.

Anyway i dont wanna argue reasoning because you only answered back 1 or 2 points i made yet u never did answer the question u answered to the point.

You only addressed the adultery issue which doesnt justify anything ok.

If your God has 70 wives, clearly hes a fornicator and adulterer who has lusts of the flesh.

Where have you heard that God in Islam has 70 wives? Don't make claims you cant back up.

And my main point here is.
What did your god ever do for you?
How do you know him in any personal way.
You claim hes merciful? Whats mercy let me ask you first.
Why do you need mercy?
You have never experienced your god in a personal way or in any way.
Neither do you have proof that he exists.
When you are broken and hurt you dont turn to him.

Allah has done countless things for me and for humanity. He sustains me physically and he is the one who gave me life. He answers when I call to him for aid. Even when I haven't been the best Muslim he has turned to me in mercy and has made my path to repentence easy on me. And, he has given me the most important thing of all which is the ability to know him and worship him correctly through the Quran and Sunnah of the prophet Muhammad. Allah is most merciful and he is indeed merciful to all of his creation. Even such as you who attempt to ridicule his religion, and those who set up partners with him. My lord is the most patient, and he is also the most just. He will never wrong anyone, but it is indeed mankind that wrongs itself. And what can we do when we wrong ourselves other than to turn to Allah and ask for his forgiveness and mercy.

Yet I can say My God came to me to touch me and let me know He is God.
Jesus Christ touched my Life and planted His Holy Seed of the New Adamic Nature in me.
My Life is totally different.
I dont lust or hate or do many things of my former evil conduct.
I can feel His presence.
And I just know That Jesus Christ is God. He is the Son of God and yet God himself. His Father is my Father who loves me so much and i know him to a degree and I know the Holy Spirit.

But your religion muslims is dead. You dont know the god whom you serve and dont know if he exists.

It may be that indeed you know less about God than I do. But I do not go as far as to tell someone that they do not know God or whether or not he exists. I can tell you personally that I know God exists through the many signs in his creation and through the truth which I found in the Quran and in the example of the prophet Muhammad.

And i want to make a point. Your Jihad is motivated by the works of the flesh. Lewdness, revelry, drunkeness, Easy way out of sins, uncleaness, fornicating.

You will not convince me that the noble practice of Jihad which Allah has permitted for Muslims and through which many evils have been wiped out and peace and justice have been established. I would also like to state that drunkeness, lewdness, fornication, and revelry are all forbidden in Islam. They are forbidden for those fighting in Jihad and those who die in Jihad. Maybe you should read about the Crusades. The Christian priests permitted soldiers who were carrying out the Crusades to do anything they want because their sins will be forgiven. Muslims fighting in Jihad have never made such claims nor have Muslims fighting in Jihad ever been permitted to disobey the commandments of Allah just because they are fighting for Islam.

And though you practice good works it does not save.
You say submission to God.
Why do you submit?
Because my dad's a muslim...

I submit to Allah because he is my creator and I owe obedience to him in anything which he commands me to do. If

Can you say you LOVE your God? and i really mean deep LOVE equal or more than your most loved human being.
But then how can you love someone whom you dont know?

I cannot speak for all Muslims but Islam has created inside of me a deep love for God. But I guess in your mind it is impossible for me to love God because I don't know him, and only Christians do right?

Finally How many of you can say you know your God.
Your Prayer is MECHANICAL.
Not dynamic.
Your talking to yourselves.

I doubt you really know the meanings of the words "dynamic", or "mechanical" otherwise you wouldn't have used them in that context. But I've derived the meaning of your statement and I'd like to ask you if you've ever actually heard what Muslims say during their prayers. During our prayers we are speaking directly to God, asking for his forgiveness, praising him and asking for his mercy and blessings on us and on the prophets. Muslims pray atleast 5 times a day so that we can be reminded of God and our duty to him. Prayer time is a time of peace among Muslims. I have prayed countless times in congregations with other Muslims in mosques and it is very spiritually uplifting and brings me both peace and gratitude.

And you derive your arguments from Some1 elses experience.
If you arent blindly following the crowd then tell me what do you seek to find in Islam.
Wives? unlimited alchohol? LUSTS OF THE FLESH!
I can say i am a Christian not because i follow a crowd but because I experienced MY GOD. God the Father(In no way affiliated with your god), The Lord Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit. 3 in 1.

You really don't know much about Islam do you? Because if you did, you'd know that alcohol and sexual promiscuity are forbidden. You've asked what I'm personally seeking from Islam? My only goal is to earn the forgiveness and mercy of Allah so that I can join the prophet Muhammad and other pious people in heaven for eternity.

If i ask you why u are a muslim. Its because you were born into a muslim family.
Why would ANYBODY want to be a muslim? Give me a reason. You dont get to know your God. Prayer is pouring out your soul and communicating with the Creator God.

I've already explained before several times on this forum that I have been born into a Muslim family but I do not just blindly follow Islam. I have studied Islam, Christianity, and Judaism, and have found Islam to be the only of the three to be the perfect and correct religion for me to follow as far as my personal beliefs. Through Islam, the universe, existance, and the nature of God all make sense.

But you probably dont pour out your soul and you cant communicate with someone who doesnt exist. And you might want to dispute that but i say to you. DID YOU EVER COMMUNICATE WITH YOUR god?
nono dont lie to me i know u didnt.

Wow, you sure are the expert on my experiences and the experiences of Muslims all around the world aren't you? Let me ask you, have you spoken to your God, and has he spoken back to you? Have you heard his voice? What did he tell you? Maybe you don't understand something but no one who is living on the Earth today has ever spoken to God in that context. But if you mean speaking to God through prayer and having him answer you in subtle ways then I can understand that. Many people have had such experiences, including many Muslims. I myself have had many such experiences, and they have brought me closer to God.

 

[Muslim]

That is so illogical to say. Evidently Mohammad does not understand the way that God works. Why does he have to ask so many times? Does not God hear him the 1st time?

The prophet Muhammad's wife and some of his companions asked him why he asked forgiveness from God and performed many acts of repentence even though he was sinless, and even though Allah had promised him that if he were to commit any sins in the future, he would forgive him. The prophet Muhammad's response was "Shouldn't I show gratitude to Allah?" The prophet Muhammad understood most of all that even if someone was sinless they were still dependent on Allah's mercy on the day of judgement. No one's actions can get them into heaven. Rather it is the mercy of Allah which will elevate them to such a status.

Prophets sin and are just as capable of lying as you and me - except for one, Christ. He was supernatural because He was God incarnate. Prophets however, can not lie when they are carrying out God's missions. In those times, the Holy Spirit inspires them to do the will of God. As long as they do not resist the Spirit, they will not err. But, God is careful in whom He chooses for prophethood and considers this in their preparation.

It is a shame that you can not see that Mohammad was not sinless. Once a sin is committed, it can not be undone. It still stains the image of the person and still is an offense charged by God against that person. You do not understand what sin is and how offensive it is to God. Lying is a sin. A lie does not have to be verbal either.

Muslims don't believe that prophets can knowingly sin. Sometimes they sin without realizing it and they instantly ask for forgiveness once they realize they have sinned. Allah strengthens each of his prophets by giving them the support of two angels and a good jinn who suggest them to do good deeds. Everyone else has two angels and an evil jinn.

 

[Eternal_Believer]

Ok let me make some points clear.

Crusades are the dark ages of Christianity where their doctrines are wrong.

If you read Matthew you can see how the leaven of false doctrines entered the church AFTER the Apostolic Age. Its quite subtle and i dont think i should let this piece of information lose yet. In the Gospels is a prophecy on the whole Church History. Even in the dark ages. The roman catholics and all.


muhammad was sinless? ARE YOU SURE?
You know what is Sin?
How i know that we are all sinners.
Its not when adultery is committed before we are sinners. Or your first act of sin.

ITS THE NATURE OF SIN which is PERVASIVE in us. The inclination to sin is why all men are SINNERS. Not one righteous in the eyes of MY GOD!

"You said It may be that indeed you know less about God than I do. But I do not go as far as to tell someone that they do not know God or whether or not he exists. I can tell you personally that I know God exists through the many signs in his creation and through the truth which I found in the Quran and in the example of the prophet Muhammad"

For the many signs in creation. Sorry they're MY GOD's creation that bring him glory. ONLY MAN AND MAN ALONE have failed to bring Him glory.

What in the Quran is truth? And what example of Muhammad?

That he killed tons of Jews out of hatred because they refused to accept his so called revelations?

And the motivation of Jihad yea yea to exterminate the non muslims and recover your so called holy grounds.

Dont lie its just a reasoning placed to Bluff yourselves that you just want a shortcut to your heaven and get your wives and unlimited alchohol.

If you are sincere then you probably dont know Islam well enough.

you also said
"through which many evils have been wiped out and peace and justice have been established."

Obviously the satanic revelation and human inclination to sin is to EXTERMINATE anything that doesnt comply with you.

And what peace? WHAT JUSTICE? World Trade Center is not a form of JUSTICE.

And while you may claim to differ from Osama Bin laden of your opinion of Jihad.
You are just either of these 2.
You dont know whats Islam and you dont know what it really is.
Mark A. Gabriel an original Muslim who got second place in the most prominent muslim university studied Islam and he knew its Either join Jihad or go leave Islam altogether.
Get second place in that university and i will debate with you on what you know on religion.


And I see no change in Muslim behaviour. They all are vulgar and full of the lusts of the flesh.


And precisely because you claim Islam forbids drunkeness and revelries that you dont know what it is.

WHY then is the reward for Islam so many Virgins and unlimited alchohol? IS IT NOT LUST OF THE FLESH?

Ok about the thing on your god having seventy wives, i read wrongly. my error.

But dont get legalistic on me. After Moses gave the law was there only to be ONE Wife. Jacob was before that.

And why do you need not 2 but 45 or 70 wives! Is that not lust of the flesh?
You might be really pious and religious but your fellow believers dont got the same opinions as you.


Also please tell me something.
WHY IN THE WORLD DOES A RIGHTEOUS SINLESS MAN NEED MERCY?

ITS THE UNRIGHTEOUS WHO NEED MERCY.
IF YOUR god CAN SEND PPL TO HELL WHILE SINLESS THEN HES UNJUST.

And Muhammad permits lying with the lips as long as in your head you know the truth.
But dont believe such nonsense.

Whats mercy then?

And Muhammad is NOT SINLESS i say again. Hes self delusional if he believes hes sinless.

As for my encounters with the Living God of Israel, His Holy Spirit is in me.
You receive subtle responses? What is your subtle response then? Tell me.

And i didnt hear his voice verbally but i know it was God.

But you never had an actual EXPERIENCE with God.
He answered your prayers? In what way?
In your religion its full of dead works and earning your way into heaven by works.

I see no different nature in muslims. They cuss and their mouth speaks things full of iniquity.

You talk as one with head knowledge. Not being able to define exactly what is your experience?

What is the Right form of worship i ask you?
45 degrees to the sun?

You claim to speak to God.
Well everyone will claim to speak to God.
I'm asking about the Speaking to WHOM? Yourselves most likely. You must talk to yourselves and pretend the answer is from God.

"Muslims don't believe that prophets can knowingly sin"
You know what this means? It means if i am a prophet I am going to commit a sin like muder and adultery THEN i know its sin and repent?

You know not half of what you talk. Asking for forgiveness even though i have not sinned and MERCY WHEN I AM RIGHTEOUS?
If muhammad was righteous i say again then why does he need mercy unless you understand not what mercy is...

Its easy to say God is merciful kind loving bla bla bla but HOW DO U KNOW?
Through the quran?????
Its one thing to believe something. But whether the thing applies is another thing.
Have you Felt his Love? How has he shown you mercy. How has he been kind?
Answer these 3 also if you want to or if you can as in if you got the time to. Specifically.

In the Bible it gives FACTS that connects with reality.


Ok if i have been harsh someparts. Please dont be offended. If you tell me which parts I have offended you not as in i emphasize my doctrines but if i have degraded with personal attacks on you the person, you tell me.
I'll apologize if i am in the wrong. But i might not come back here again.

 

[peaceful soul]

originally posted by Muslim

The prophet Muhammad's wife and some of his companions asked him why he asked forgiveness from God and performed many acts of repentence even though he was sinless, and even though Allah had promised him that if he were to commit any sins in the future, he would forgive him.

You or other Muslims often criticize Christians as having a free ticket to sin when we say that Christ paid the penality for our sins. This appears to be on the same level. How do you defend this? Also, why would not Allah grant this to everyone who believed in him? I see a double standard here. Is Mohammad's faith somehow greater than another?

The prophet Muhammad's response was "Shouldn't I show gratitude to Allah?"

That does not answer the question of why do something that you are not guilty of? God does not honor such a request. He can only forgive those who have sinned, and Mohammad would not qualify as a sinner according to you.

The prophet Muhammad understood most of all that even if someone was sinless they were still dependent on Allah's mercy on the day of judgement.

God's mercy has nothing to do with requesting to be forgiven for something that you claim he is not guilty of. That in itself, is a sin. God can not grant that type of request; for He would be committing sin Himself. Do you get the picture now? You have to have an offense before God in order for repentence to be considered. No sin, no repentence. It is very simple. That is why Christ could be a mediator for us. He was sinless in the real sense and had no need for repentence before God. Reason: He was God. Christ was able to plead our case in the counsels of Heaven concerning our sins.

No one's actions can get them into heaven. Rather it is the mercy of Allah which will elevate them to such a status.

Mercy is the beginning. There is much more to the equation than that. Mercy only allows us to exist in this world in spite our corrupted nature wihch is in emnity to God. Grace (unmerited favor) is another part of the equation. God puts up with us although He has no right to. Redemption is the other integral part. Although God can forgive us, He still has to rid us of the offenses. There has to be some type of covering so that justice can be done and that God does not become defiled. God can not fellowship with sinners. They have to become purified. Just asking for forgiveness does not purify us. It is only an acknoledgement from Allah that He recongizes that we know that we offended.

Muslims don't believe that prophets can knowingly sin.

The issue is not whether we know it or not. It is whether we sin or not. To God, a sin is a sin - knowingly or not. It still is an offense, period!

Sometimes they sin without realizing it and they instantly ask for forgiveness once they realize they have sinned.

You assume that we will realize our sin. Christ tells us that we do not know of all of the offenses that we commit. We commit sins throughout the day and most of them, we have not conscious of them and never will. Part of the spiritual deception that Islam has is that you have no real sense of sin and how the spiritual realm works.

Allah strengthens each of his prophets by giving them the support of two angels and a good jinn who suggest them to do good deeds.

I disagree. It is the function of the Holy Spirit to oversee a prophet. Angels may intevene, but it is the Spirit that motivates them just like it does every follower of Christ. Of course, you would not understand that.

Everyone else has two angels and an evil jinn.

That is your teaching, but to believe your statement would force me to conclude that Allah is a setting us up to fail. IMO, that is really silly. I can just picture two angels arguing with a jihn on what the person is going to do next. Sounds like a good cartoon clip.

 

[Green Man]

Are you trying to say that the prophet Muhammad was Satan? Leave it to a Christian to resort to insults when faced with an argument that they cannot win.

Bevlina did not say Muhammad wasSatan.I believe what she was saying is Muhammad,as a man was tricked into believing he was right.Isn't Satan the ultimate deceiver?Isn't it possible that Muhammad,as a mere human could be deceived in such a manner?If I'm wrong,I'm sure Bevlina will correct me on my analysis.

 

[Muslim]

Bevlina did not say Muhammad wasSatan.I believe what she was saying is Muhammad,as a man was tricked into believing he was right.Isn't Satan the ultimate deceiver?Isn't it possible that Muhammad,as a mere human could be deceived in such a manner?If I'm wrong,I'm sure Bevlina will correct me on my analysis.

Unless Satan can write or inspire a book like the Quran than it is impossible for the prophet Muhammad to have been influenced by him. You also have to ask yourself, what would the prophet Muhammad have to gain from forging the Quran? He was in the eyes of the Quraish the most noble of blood, because almost all of the Meccan rulers had been through his family line, the most resent being his grandfather. And through Islam his life became much more difficult. There were many restrictions placed on both the prophet Muhammad and his followers. Throughout his entire life the prophet Muhammad lived like a poor person. He barely had a few items in his house, and these were things like shoes, a comb, a cloak, and a leather pillow stuffed with hay. Even though the prophet Muhammad received a ton of money from his followers as charity, he never kept any of it. One time while he was preaching Islam in Mecca, the Pagan chiefs of Mecca gave a proposal to the prophet Muhammad that if he gave up Islam they would make him their ruler. But the prophet Muhammad refused. Why? Because he did not desire worldly power, but instead was fulled by his dedication to following the commandments of God and never faltering in spreading the message of Islam.

 

[Muslim]

You or other Muslims often criticize Christians as having a free ticket to sin when we say that Christ paid the penality for our sins. This appears to be on the same level. How do you defend this? Also, why would not Allah grant this to everyone who believed in him? I see a double standard here. Is Mohammad's faith somehow greater than another?

The prophet Muhammad had performed every duty required of him by Allah, and since every prophet goes to heaven, it would make sense also that Allah would let him know ahead of time that he was going to heaven. But prophets are not the only ones who are told that they are going to heaven while they are still alive. 10 of the prophet Muhammads companions were told while they were alive that they would be going straight to heaven. Why these 10? Because these companions were so great in their faith towards Allah, that Allah knew they wouldn't disobey him even if he told them they were going to heaven. And each of these companions lived strictly according to the laws of for all of their lives, even though they were told they were going to heaven.

That does not answer the question of why do something that you are not guilty of? God does not honor such a request. He can only forgive those who have sinned, and Mohammad would not qualify as a sinner according to you.

Ok I think I've somewhat confused you. It was impossible for the prophet Muhamamd to knowingly commit a sin. Because he unlike other men had 2 angels and 1 jinn who were urging him to always do good. But he has done things which can be considered sinful in Islam without knowning it. For instance one time the prophet Muhammad was over at one of his wives houses, (because he used to visit all of his wives during the afternoon and see how they were doing) , a little later than usual because she had some honey and he was eating it. Honey was among his favorite foods. One of his other wives got jealous and suggested to some of his wives that when he comes to visit them that they should all tell him that his breath stinks. So after the prophet Muhammad went to all of them and they told him that his breath stank, he vowed never to eat honey again. But then Allah reaveled to him a chapter of the Quran which told him that he could not forbid something to himself which Allah has permitted. Once Allah forbids something in the Quran then Muslims are required to follow it. If they did it before in the past then it is not counted as a sin because they did it out of ingnorance. So in a sense the prophet Muhammad was also praying for the sins he committed out of ignorance, which don't really count as sins. But in doing so the prophet Muhammad was setting an example for his companions that they should always seek forgiveness from Allah regardless of how pious they are.

 

[Green Man]

Unless Satan can write or inspire a book like the Quran than it is impossible for the prophet Muhammad to have been influenced by him. You also have to ask yourself, what would the prophet Muhammad have to gain from forging the Quran? He was in the eyes of the Quraish the most noble of blood, because almost all of the Meccan rulers had been through his family line, the most resent being his grandfather. And through Islam his life became much more difficult. There were many restrictions placed on both the prophet Muhammad and his followers. Throughout his entire life the prophet Muhammad lived like a poor person. He barely had a few items in his house, and these were things like shoes, a comb, a cloak, and a leather pillow stuffed with hay. Even though the prophet Muhammad received a ton of money from his followers as charity, he never kept any of it. One time while he was preaching Islam in Mecca, the Pagan chiefs of Mecca gave a proposal to the prophet Muhammad that if he gave up Islam they would make him their ruler. But the prophet Muhammad refused. Why? Because he did not desire worldly power, but instead was fulled by his dedication to following the commandments of God and never faltering in spreading the message of Islam.

Listen very carefully.You're twisting people's words around to give them meanings the writer never intended.No one said Satan wrote the Qur'an.I can't speak for anyone one else obviously,But the way I see it,Satan could have corrupted the Qur'an during translation in the process of writing it down.You say it's impossible for Muhammad to have been influenced by him.Why not?Was Muhammad God?Was he more than human?Is any mere human a match for the ultimate deceiver?BTW,no one in thread has accused Muhammad of forging anything.Be extremely careful about making baseless accusations.

 

[The Midge]

What are you talking about. All prophets are men. Unless you believe that prophets are super human or something.

Please read the posts again.

I'm saying that Jesus can not only be considred a prohets. He implicitly implied that he was God by

• Saying he could fogive sin
• Saying he was the Lord of the Sabbath
• Saying he was the temple to be torn down and rebuilt in three days
• Using the name I AM.

One who says this is either God or lying, or Mad. If it is the latter two then that pperson is not to be trusted or honoured as a prophet.

 

[Arthra]

Green man wrote:

Listen very carefully.You're twisting people's words around to give them meanings the writer never intended.No one said Satan wrote the Qur'an.I can't speak for anyone one else obviously,But the way I see it,Satan could have corrupted the Qur'an during translation in the process of writing it down.You say it's impossible for Muhammad to have been influenced by him.Why not?Was Muhammad God?Was he more than human?Is any mere human a match for the ultimate deceiver?BTW,no one in thread has accused Muhammad of forging anything.Be extremely careful about making baseless accusations.

My comment:

The problem with a statement like "Satan could have corrupted the Qur'an during translation in the process of writing it down..." is that the Qur'an was already being recited regularly by people during worship services and recited in it's entirety every Ramadan quite awhle before the standard order of Surihs was set down. Also scribes wrte portions of it as the Revelations were occuring. The Companions as well Ali had full knowledge of Qur'an and so there was no issue about any corruption of the Qur'an.

Prophet Muhammad was the vehicle God chose to use to reveal. No Moslem thinks of Muhammad as God. "Satan" had been busy enough corrupting the lives of the Arabian people during the age of ignorance so now God chose to allow that to go no further by using this corrupted people and transforming them into His Umma.


The Midge wrote:

I'm saying that Jesus can not only be considred a prohets. He implicitly implied that he was God by

* Saying he could fogive sin
* Saying he was the Lord of the Sabbath
* Saying he was the temple to be torn down and rebuilt in three days
* Using the name I AM.
One who says this is either God or lying, or Mad. If it is the latter two then that pperson is not to be trusted or honoured as a prophet.

Comment:

God spoke through Jesus as He did later through Prophet Muhammad... so both Jesus and Muhammad revealed God to humanity. Sometimes God spoke through Jesus AS GOD just as God directly speaks through the Qur'an.

The Lord Jesus Himself said:

"The words I say to you I do not speak as from myself:it is the Father, living in Me, Who is doing this work"

- John 14:10

For the people at the time of Jesus Christ there was no way closer to God, similarly at the time of Prophet Muhammad there was no one else who was closer to the Revelation.

 

[Muslim]

Listen very carefully.You're twisting people's words around to give them meanings the writer never intended.No one said Satan wrote the Qur'an.I can't speak for anyone one else obviously,But the way I see it,Satan could have corrupted the Qur'an during translation in the process of writing it down.You say it's impossible for Muhammad to have been influenced by him. Why not?Was Muhammad God?Was he more than human?Is any mere human a match for the ultimate deceiver?BTW,no one in thread has accused Muhammad of forging anything.Be extremely careful about making baseless accusations.

Unlike Christians, Muslims don't believe that Satan can oppose God. God allowed him to live until the day of judgement as a test for human beings. God gave Satan the power to only whisper suggestions into peoples minds but he can't force anyone to do something. Muslims believe that every human being has 2 angels and one devil accompanying them throughout their entire lives. The angels suggest them to do good while the devil gives them evil suggestions. It is up to the person to follow either the good or the evil suggestions. Prophets on the other hand are born with 2 angels and one devil who suggests them to do good. It is impossible for Satan to infiltrate the mind of a prophet, and influence his words. And when it comes to the Quran, there is no way Satan could have influenced it. The prophet Muhammad used to recite the verses of the Quran instantly as they were revealed and his companions would write them down and memorize them. Several times a day they would recite them during their prayers and during the month of Ramadan the entire Quran was recited during prayers by the Muslims. And atleast once a year the angel Gabriel would come to the prophet Muhammad and make sure that he was arranging the verses of the Quran in perfect order so that there were no mistakes. When the prophet Muhammad died, there were hundreds of his companions who had memorized the entire Quran and thousands who had memorized a few chapters. So as you can see, the process in which the Quran was revealed and preserved left no area for Satan to infiltrate. Muslims believe that Allah made it his personal duty to guard the Quran from corruption until the day of judgement.

 

[Green Man]

Green man wrote:

Listen very carefully.You're twisting people's words around to give them meanings the writer never intended.No one said Satan wrote the Qur'an.I can't speak for anyone one else obviously,But the way I see it,Satan could have corrupted the Qur'an during translation in the process of writing it down.You say it's impossible for Muhammad to have been influenced by him.Why not?Was Muhammad God?Was he more than human?Is any mere human a match for the ultimate deceiver?BTW,no one in thread has accused Muhammad of forging anything.Be extremely careful about making baseless accusations.

My comment:

The problem with a statement like "Satan could have corrupted the Qur'an during translation in the process of writing it down..." is that the Qur'an was already being recited regularly by people during worship services and recited in it's entirety every Ramadan quite awhle before the standard order of Surihs was set down. Also scribes wrte portions of it as the Revelations were occuring. The Companions as well Ali had full knowledge of Qur'an and so there was no issue about any corruption of the Qur'an.

Prophet Muhammad was the vehicle God chose to use to reveal. No Moslem thinks of Muhammad as God. "Satan" had been busy enough corrupting the lives of the Arabian people during the age of ignorance so now God chose to allow that to go no further by using this corrupted people and transforming them into His Umma.


You're saying it's not possible for the ultimate deceiver to influence the Qur'an in this way?Isn't that exactly what he would want people to think?

I never said Muhammad was God.My point in asking the question was to emphasize the fact he was a man,therefore subject to being deceived.