proving evolution as just a "theory"

[Bugeyedcreepy]

where is the limit of pushing a creature back in time? by pushing it 40my? 50?

What is it you have a problem with, do you think Evolutionary change is only ever a linear progression? ...because it isn't.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

where is the limit of pushing a creature back in time? by pushing it 40my? 50?

There is no absolute number. It is a matter of where a fossil fits in an evolutionary line. So the limit is where a fossil would pre-date an evolved feature.

 

[pitabread]

where is the limit of pushing a creature back in time? by pushing it 40my? 50?

I already answered this. There is no magic number.

Again, if there was something you didn't understand in my prior response, then ask and I'll explain it further. But don't just repeat the same question over and over expecting a different answer.

 

[Aman777]

God obviously allows chance to take place in this universe. The difference is God did not create by chance. Genesis shows he's was very deliberate in what he created. He did not create one thing (whatever that is supposed to be). And then sit back see what became of it. He created everything and many things. He created one man and one woman after everything else was created.

Amen....and God the Trinity is STILL creating Adam/mankind in His Image which is Spiritually in Christ. Gen 1:26 Gen 5:1-2 John 14:16 God the Trinity will NOT rest until Heaven is filled with "ALL" of it's host, which includes ALL Christians. Gen 2:1 God Bless you

 

[Aman777]

17 For forty days the floodwaters grew deeper, covering the ground and lifting the boat high above the earth. 18 As the waters rose higher and higher above the ground, the boat floated safely on the surface. 19 Finally, the water covered even the highest mountains on the earth, 20 rising more than twenty-two feet above the highest peaks (Gen 7:11-20 NLT).

False, altered version which adds to God's Truth. Here is the KJV,

Gen 7:17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

The "add to" in your version is in lifting the boat high above earth. The altered view preacher is getting ready to put his thoughts into God's words.

Gen 7:18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.

The water deepened and the Ark floated on the water. Your version agrees.

Gen 7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.

The "add to" here is claiming the highest mountains were covered instead of the high hills.

Gen 7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

The "add to" here is that the flood was 22.5 feet ABOVE the "mountain peaks" and the less altered version shows that Adam's FLAT Earth was covered when the flood reached a depth of 22.5 feet PERIOD. No wonder so many people are confused when they read what they THINK was written. That's religion/belief and not Scripture.

 

[Aman777]

once we find it, THEN it's evidence. Until then, it's just another unfounded assertion. Why don't you talk to someone about going in to get it?

I do daily. Do you know any scientists or wealthy preachers who would like to find the most valuable treasure on planet Earth? It's miles in diameter and worth its weight in Gold AND it's empirical proof of life before the Big Bang of our cosmos. It's Adam's firmament (made the 2nd Day Gen 1:8) which was brought into our Universe (made the 3rd Day Gen 2:4) 11k years ago in the mountains of Ararat. It sank in Lake Van, Turkey releasing the 450 ft Ark into our ecosystem.

 

[doubtingmerle]

The Flood?

Wait, now you are claiming that the flood placed down all those layers in the grand canyon? I thought you were saying those layers were there from creation.

Ok so you are not now saying that God made all those layers on day 1 to look old. You now claim they were placed down in a flood.

The grand canyon includes a layer with buried wind blown sand dunes. If this was all formed in a flood, how was there wind blowing sand below some of the flood waters?

 

[doubtingmerle]

I do daily. Do you know any scientists or wealthy preachers who would like to find the most valuable treasure on planet Earth? It's miles in diameter and worth its weight in Gold AND it's empirical proof of life before the Big Bang of our cosmos. It's Adam's firmament (made the 2nd Day Gen 1:8) which was brought into our Universe (made the 3rd Day Gen 2:4) 11k years ago in the mountains of Ararat. It sank in Lake Van, Turkey releasing the 450 ft Ark into our ecosystem.

Hah! Miles in diameter and worth its weight in gold? Why aren't you going after it? Were you holding off for a really big opportunity?

 

[Aman777]

What's a "kind"?

There are two kinds. One is "His" kind or common ancestors made by the hands of Jesus to be temporary and are subject to death. The other is "Their" kinds which are the kinds made to be FOREVER, immortal, made to never die.

Look at this verse:

Gen 1:25 And God (Trinity) made the beast of the earth after HIS kind, and cattle after THEIR kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after HIS kind: and God saw that it was good.

The temporary creatures made by Jesus must be "created" by the Trinity in order to be Eternal. It's the SAME with Humans and WHY we MUST be born again, born from above by God the Trinity, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Gen 1:26 Gen 5:1-2 and John 14:16 Are you one of Their kinds who will NEVER die?

 

[Aman777]

Hah! Miles in diameter and worth its weight in gold? Why aren't you going after it? Were you holding off for a really big opportunity?

It's Adam's entire small flat world with its 4 Rivers and mountains 22.5 feet in elevation. It was totally destroyed in Lake Van 11k years ago when the windows on top of the firmament were opened and it rained for 40 days and nights. As the solid firmament sank in the Lake, it released the 450 ft Ark and brought Human civilization to our planet of Apes. That's God's Truth Scripturally scientifically and historically.

 

[doubtingmerle]

There are two kinds. One is "His" kind or common ancestors made by the hands of Jesus to be temporary and are subject to death. The other is "Their" kinds which are the kinds made to be FOREVER, immortal, made to never die.

Look at this verse:

Gen 1:25 And God (Trinity) made the beast of the earth after HIS kind, and cattle after THEIR kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after HIS kind: and God saw that it was good.

The temporary creatures made by Jesus must be "created" by the Trinity in order to be Eternal. It's the SAME with Humans and WHY we MUST be born again, born from above by God the Trinity, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Gen 1:26 Gen 5:1-2 and John 14:16 Are you one of Their kinds who will NEVER die?

You might be better off arguing this in another forum. You seem to be interested in arguing your rather unusual theology and that really isn't going to get settled in a science forum.

 

[Aman777]

You might be better off arguing this in another forum. You seem to be interested in arguing your rather unusual theology and that really isn't going to get settled in a science forum.

WHY not? since it's the Truth Scientifically and Historically and it agrees with Genesis? Does the Truth scare scientists?

 

[doubtingmerle]

There was no death prior to Genesis 3, so why would there be fossils in Genesis 1?

You seemed to have been saying that all the rocks were created at creation with an appearance of age. Since the rocks have fossils, that would mean they were created with fossils. I see now that you have apparently abandoned the idea that the rocks were created with age, and have apparently switched to flood geology.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Does the Truth scare scientists?

No, but knowing that people believe some of the weird things I see here scares me.

 

[OzSpen]

False, altered version which adds to God's Truth. Here is the KJV,

Gen 7:17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

The "add to" in your version is in lifting the boat high above earth. The altered view preacher is getting ready to put his thoughts into God's words.

Gen 7:18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.

The water deepened and the Ark floated on the water. Your version agrees.

Gen 7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.

The "add to" here is claiming the highest mountains were covered instead of the high hills.

Gen 7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

The "add to" here is that the flood was 22.5 feet ABOVE the "mountain peaks" and the less altered version shows that Adam's FLAT Earth was covered when the flood reached a depth of 22.5 feet PERIOD. No wonder so many people are confused when they read what they THINK was written. That's religion/belief and not Scripture.

Aman,

Adam's FLAT Earth

Please prove that from Genesis 6-7. I'm waiting with baited breath!

You complain about the modern translation I used, New Living Translation, adding to the Bible with 'high'. By the way, the KJV you quoted is not the original KJV of 1611 (which I'll quote below) but probably a parallel to the 1769 revision.

Now let's look at various English translations of Gen 7:17,


Wycliffe's Bible appeared 2 centuries BEFORE the KJV of 1611: '17 And the great flood was made (for) forty days and forty nights on [the] earth, and the waters were multiplied, and raised (up) the ship on high from the earth'.

The Great Bible (BEFORE KJV): ' 17 And the floude came fortye dayes vpon the earth, & the waters were increaced, and bare vp the Arke, whiche was lyfte vp aboue the erth'.

Bishops' Bible (BEFORE KJV): 'And the fludde came fourtie dayes vpon the earth, and the waters were increased, and bare vp the arke, whiche was lyft vp aboue the earth'.


Douay-Rheims Bible was BEFORE the KJV: 'And the flood was forty days upon the earth: and the waters increased, and lifted up the ark on high from the earth.

The Geneva Bible (BEFORE KJV) with modern spelling, 'Then the flood was forty days upon the earth, and the waters were increased,and bare up the Ark, which was lifted up above the earth'.

The Coverdale Bible (BEFORE KJV): 'Then came the water floude fourtie dayes vpon the earth, and the water increased, and bare vp the Arcke, and lift it vp ouer ye earth'.

KJV of 1611, 'And the Flood was fortie dayes vpon the earth, and the waters increased, and bare vp the Arke, and it was lift vp aboue the earth'.

NKJV: '17 Now the flood was on the earth forty days. The waters increased and lifted up the ark, and it rose high above the earth'.

ESV: '17 The flood continued forty days on the earth. The waters increased and bore up the ark, and it rose high above the earth'

NRSV: '17 The flood continued for forty days on the earth; and the waters increased, and bore up the ark, and it rose high above the earth'.

NLT: 'For forty days the floodwaters grew deeper, covering the ground and lifting the boat high above the earth'.

NIRV: 'For 40 days the flood kept coming on the earth. As the waters rose higher, they lifted the ark high above the earth'.

NET: 'The flood engulfed the earth for forty days. As the waters increased, they lifted the ark and raised it above the earth'.

Notice the difference between the KJV and the NKJV. Why has the KJV translated as 'lift vp aboue' and the NKJV, 'rose high above'? Because that's the meaning of the Hebrew. The modern versions convey it in a clearer way. It's really the formal equivalence translation of the KJV (1611) that has left out the 'high'. It is NOT that the modern translations have added 'high', but they have given us an accurate rendition into English of what the Hebrew language means for this verse.

Hebrew scholar, H C Leupold, explains what is the meaning of 'lift vp aboue' vs. 'rose high above'. He stated,

Naturally "the waters mounted" (rabbah＝"grew great"). It was not long before sufficient water was displaced to "lift up" (nasa’) the ark. So it "went high" (rûm＝"be high") above the earth (Leupold, 1942, Exposition of Genesis 7:17).​

Therefore, it is the KJV and earlier translatios - except the Douay-Rheims and your support for the KJV translation of Gen 7:17 - that demonstrates that it is the KJV and you that got it wrong when the Hebrew, rûm, in Gen 7:17, because it means 'be high' and 'high' must be in the English translation of the Hebrew OR some word that is a synonym to 'high'.

I do wish KJV-only supporters like yourself would get your facts straight about the exegesis of the biblical text. Your accusation against me regarding Gen 7:17, that I used an 'altered version which adds to God's Truth', is untrue. This was a false allegation.

Oz

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

I do daily. Do you know any scientists or wealthy preachers who would like to find the most valuable treasure on planet Earth? It's miles in diameter and worth its weight in Gold AND it's empirical proof of life before the Big Bang of our cosmos. It's Adam's firmament (made the 2nd Day Gen 1:8) which was brought into our Universe (made the 3rd Day Gen 2:4) 11k years ago in the mountains of Ararat. It sank in Lake Van, Turkey releasing the 450 ft Ark into our ecosystem.

Can't say I do - but again, once we find it, THEN it's evidence. Until then, it's just another unfounded assertion. Surely someone with some scuba gear could take a few pics or something?

You seem to know a tremendous amount about this theoretical firmament - would this be a falsification if it turns out to not be there?

 

[doubtingmerle]

Aman,



Please prove that from Genesis 6-7. I'm waiting with baited breath!

You complain about the modern translation I used, New Living Translation, adding to the Bible with 'high'. By the way, the KJV you quoted is not the original KJV of 1611 (which I'll quote below) but probably a parallel to the 1769 revision.

Now let's look at various English translations of Gen 7:17,


Wycliffe's Bible appeared 2 centuries BEFORE the KJV of 1611: '17 And the great flood was made (for) forty days and forty nights on [the] earth, and the waters were multiplied, and raised (up) the ship on high from the earth'.

The Great Bible (BEFORE KJV): ' 17 And the floude came fortye dayes vpon the earth, & the waters were increaced, and bare vp the Arke, whiche was lyfte vp aboue the erth'.

Bishops' Bible (BEFORE KJV): 'And the fludde came fourtie dayes vpon the earth, and the waters were increased, and bare vp the arke, whiche was lyft vp aboue the earth'.


Douay-Rheims Bible was BEFORE the KJV: 'And the flood was forty days upon the earth: and the waters increased, and lifted up the ark on high from the earth.

The Geneva Bible (BEFORE KJV) with modern spelling, 'Then the flood was forty days upon the earth, and the waters were increased,and bare up the Ark, which was lifted up above the earth'.

The Coverdale Bible (BEFORE KJV): 'Then came the water floude fourtie dayes vpon the earth, and the water increased, and bare vp the Arcke, and lift it vp ouer ye earth'.

KJV of 1611, 'And the Flood was fortie dayes vpon the earth, and the waters increased, and bare vp the Arke, and it was lift vp aboue the earth'.

NKJV: '17 Now the flood was on the earth forty days. The waters increased and lifted up the ark, and it rose high above the earth'.

ESV: '17 The flood continued forty days on the earth. The waters increased and bore up the ark, and it rose high above the earth'

NRSV: '17 The flood continued for forty days on the earth; and the waters increased, and bore up the ark, and it rose high above the earth'.

NLT: 'For forty days the floodwaters grew deeper, covering the ground and lifting the boat high above the earth'.

NIRV: 'For 40 days the flood kept coming on the earth. As the waters rose higher, they lifted the ark high above the earth'.

NET: 'The flood engulfed the earth for forty days. As the waters increased, they lifted the ark and raised it above the earth'.

Notice the difference between the KJV and the NKJV. Why has the KJV translated as 'lift vp aboue' and the NKJV, 'rose high above'? Because that's the meaning of the Hebrew. The modern versions convey it in a clearer way. It's really the formal equivalence translation of the KJV (1611) that has left out the 'high'. It is NOT that the modern translations have added 'high', but they have given us an accurate rendition into English of what the Hebrew language means for this verse.

Hebrew scholar, H C Leupold, explains what is the meaning of 'lift vp aboue' vs. 'rose high above'. He stated,

Naturally "the waters mounted" (rabbah＝"grew great"). It was not long before sufficient water was displaced to "lift up" (nasa’) the ark. So it "went high" (rûm＝"be high") above the earth (Leupold, 1942, Exposition of Genesis 7:17).​

Therefore, it is the KJV and earlier translatios - except the Douay-Rheims and your support for the KJV translation of Gen 7:17 - that demonstrates that it is the KJV and you that got it wrong when the Hebrew, rûm, in Gen 7:17, because it means 'be high' and 'high' must be in the English translation of the Hebrew OR some word that is a synonym to 'high'.

I do wish KJV-only supporters like yourself would get your facts straight about the exegesis of the biblical text. Your accusation against me regarding Gen 7:17, that I used an 'altered version which adds to God's Truth', is untrue. This was a false allegation.

Oz

So flood level was above Mt Everest? Where did all that water come from? Where did it go?

 

[OzSpen]

So flood level was above Mt Everest? Where did all that water come from? Where did it go?

This is an example of a humanist refusing to note the evidence that has already been provided in Scripture. Why don't you treat this subject seriously and go to the source in Genesis 6-7 (NIV) where you will find this information.

This is what the evidence states:

• Where did the rain come from? 'Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made' (Gen 7:4).
• But there's more evidence of how all that water was generated: 'all the springs of the great deep burst forth' (Gen 7:11).
  
• This was a supernatural judgment by God and he used supernatural means to bring all that water. 'The waters rose and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water. 19 They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. 20 The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than fifteen cubits (Gen 7:18-20). I don't expect you to accept the miraculous means God used, because of your humanistic presuppositions.
  
• Where did all that water go? Why are you so ignorant of knowing this important piece of information? Are you out to try to trick me?

Now let's read the evidence. Yes, the evidence!

But God remembered Noah and all the wild animals and the livestock that were with him in the ark, and he sent a wind over the earth, and the waters receded. 2 Now the springs of the deep and the floodgates of the heavens had been closed, and the rain had stopped falling from the sky. 3 The water receded steadily from the earth. At the end of the hundred and fifty days the water had gone down, 4 and on the seventeenth day of the seventh month the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat. 5 The waters continued to recede until the tenth month, and on the first day of the tenth month the tops of the mountains became visible.

6 After forty days Noah opened a window he had made in the ark 7 and sent out a raven, and it kept flying back and forth until the water had dried up from the earth. 8 Then he sent out a dove to see if the water had receded from the surface of the ground. 9 But the dove could find nowhere to perch because there was water over all the surface of the earth; so it returned to Noah in the ark. He reached out his hand and took the dove and brought it back to himself in the ark. 10 He waited seven more days and again sent out the dove from the ark. 11 When the dove returned to him in the evening, there in its beak was a freshly plucked olive leaf! Then Noah knew that the water had receded from the earth. 12 He waited seven more days and sent the dove out again, but this time it did not return to him.

13 By the first day of the first month of Noah’s six hundred and first year, the water had dried up from the earth. Noah then removed the covering from the ark and saw that the surface of the ground was dry. 14 By the twenty-seventh day of the second month the earth was completely dry (Genesis 8:1-14).​

The Scripture gives sound evidence of why the Great Flood happened - the wickedness of people on the earth, why God chose the righteous Noah to save certain people and other living things, and how He would do that. God told us how the water came and what caused it to subside, but you - a humanist - plead ignorant of this.

Please don't play games when the evidence is right before you in Genesis 6-8.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

No, but knowing that people believe some of the weird things I see here scares me.

What 'weird things'? A generic assertion is not helpful.

 

[Paidiske]

MOD HAT ON
This thread will remain closed.​

After repeated requests, flaming and goading posts have continued.
That is enough.​

MOD HAT OFF​