Preterism ends now ...but futurists are not right either

[Douggg]

That's immaterial to the point. We really do start numbering a child's years of life starting from that birthdate. It was the same for the Sea Beast when it first came into existence under the lion kingdom's Babylonian deportation of Daniel and those like him (the "good figs" deported from Jerusalem).

No, John sees the beast come out of the sea already in the composite makeup. The beast coming out of the sea is an end-times kingdom.
___________________________________________________________

Please clarify again your 666 years theory by filling in the blanks...

Begining year_(fill in the blank)____
Ending year __(flill in the blank)____

 

[3 Resurrections]

No, John sees the beast come out of the sea already in the composite makeup. The beast coming out of the sea is an end-times kingdom.

Yes, I agree the Sea Beast comes out of the sea in John's visions already with that composite makeup. And it most certainly was a Beast which was present in the "end times", since some of the last 10 crowned horns on that Sea Beast included the Caesars who waged war against the Zealots in those "latter days" of AD 66-70 before Jerusalem fell. That was what Peter was referring to when he wrote that "the end of all things is at hand".

Please clarify again your 666 years theory by filling in the blanks...

Begining year_(fill in the blank)____
Ending year __(flill in the blank)____

The ending year of the 666 years was the year John was writing Revelation somewhere between late AD 59 and early AD 60 - just before the cataclysmic AD 60 Laodicean earthquake which decimated that city. God had promised the Laodicean church that He was "about to spue thee out of my mouth" - the imminent judgment on the city of Laodicea by the AD 60 earthquake.

Calculating backward 666 years in time from that AD 59/60 point...

The beginning year of the 666 years was the 607 BC first deportation of Daniel and others like him from Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar. This began the continuous period of 666 years of pagan empires holding control of Israel as a nation up until the time John was writing Revelation.

In one way or another, each of those 4 pagan empires which made up the composite Sea Beast had demanded homage. We know all about Nebuchadnezzar's golden image which all were to bow down to, and Daniel's 3 friends who refused to do so. Under the Medo-Persian empire, Daniel faithfully refused to pray to another god than Jehovah, and the lion's den story was the result. Also under that Medo-Persian empire, Mordecai refused to bow to Haman, and we know the result of that story in the book of Esther. The Greek kingdom under Antiochus Epiphanes also demanded that all Israel stop their observance of the law and turn into idolaters on pain of death. Under Rome, Israel's leaders collaborated with them in requiring the abominable Tyrian shekel which gave homage to Rome and its pagan gods. Those who resisted all these demands over the centuries of the various empires were the faithful saints of Revelation 20:4 who had not worshipped the Sea Beast, neither his image, nor had received his mark upon their foreheads or in their hands.

 

[Douggg]

@ 3 Resurrections

Please take a look at this thread...

I think it would help....

in our discussions, if everyone would put in their forum member display information their eschatological view point - i.e. futurist, historicist, partial preterist, idealist. See my description of myself to the left - as being a futurist, for example. Jerryhuerta shows himself as a...

www.christianforums.com

 

[Douggg]

The ending year of the 666 years was the year John was writing Revelation somewhere between late AD 59 and early AD 60 - just before the cataclysmic AD 60 Laodicean earthquake which decimated that city. God had promised the Laodicean church that He was "about to spue thee out of my mouth" - the imminent judgment on the city of Laodicea by the AD 60 earthquake.

Calculating backward 666 years in time from that AD 59/60 point...

Okay, 607 bc to 59 ad.

Why would Satan use that basis to promote 666 ? Keep in mind that it is false prophet who enacts the 666, name of the beast, mark of the beast law. The 666 has to be something that the false prophet, the beast, and Satan - see as positive to their cause.

They are the ones coming up with those three things.

I don't know the solution to the 666 number of the name of the beast mystery yet, but I don't think it is the 666 years theory.

 

[Douggg]

Yes, I agree the Sea Beast comes out of the sea in John's visions already with that composite makeup. And it most certainly was a Beast which was present in the "end times", since some of the last 10 crowned horns on that Sea Beast included the Caesars who waged war against the Zealots in those "latter days" of AD 66-70 before Jerusalem fell. That was what Peter was referring to when he wrote that "the end of all things is at hand".

The end times is a real simple formula:

Gog/Magog, then the 7 years, ending with Jesus's return.

 

[3 Resurrections]

I don't know the solution to the 666 number of the name of the beast mystery yet, but I don't think it is the 666 years theory.

Luther also believed the 666 calculated number referred to 666 years. The problem I have read was that he believed it referred to the years since the Papacy was established. Wrong application of the period of time, but still, he was on the right track that it referred to a time period and not to a gematria method, which idea I have had to abandon some time ago.

The end times is a real simple formula:

Gog/Magog, then the 7 years, ending with Jesus's return.

There is more than one "end times" period.

The LXX for Numbers 24:5-9 says that the kingdom of Gog was ISRAEL which God had led out of Egypt and developed into a nation. Gog was going to be a CIVIL WAR, when "every man's hand sword shall be against his brother" (Ezekiel 38:21). This was true of the Zealot factions which brought civil strife to the country and to Jerusalem in its last days before its AD 70 destruction. This civil warfare with the Zealots battling their own fellow citizens in Jerusalem for 42 months was the main cause for a weakened Jerusalem to fall to Rome's armies in AD 70.

And yes, it took a literal 7 years to cleanse the land of Israel of all the dead remains scattered everywhere following the AD 70 fall of Jerusalem. These were all buried in the Jordan valley at the top of the Dead Sea, as Ezekiel prophesied.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Please take a look at this thread...

I think it would help....

in our discussions, if everyone would put in their forum member display information their eschatological view point - i.e. futurist, historicist, partial preterist, idealist. See my description of myself to the left - as being a futurist, for example. Jerryhuerta shows himself as a...

www.christianforums.com

Douggg, my Avatar name of "3 Resurrections" IS my eschatological stance.

 

[Douggg]

Douggg, my Avatar name of "3 Resurrections" IS my eschatological stance.

But your screen-name does not indicate whether you are a futurist, a historicist, a partial- preterist, an idealist.

 

[Twin_niwT]

Of course not - I rely on how Christ defined it by quoting Daniel. Luke by inspiration interpreted Daniel's "abomination of desolation" as being "Jerusalem surrounded by armies". That's not my choice of words, but Christ's and Luke's.

Scripture lists many things that were considered an "abomination" to God, but that particular phrase "abomination of desolation" as used by Daniel was for armies to come surround Jerusalem. That's it. No more and no less than that. This happened under Antiochus once, and it would happen again in AD 66 with Cestius Gallus's Roman army squared off against the Zealot armies.

You're implying that an already spiritually desolate Jerusalem can experience an abomination of desolation a second time? 70ad was not an abomination, it was Christ's judgment being fulfilled. It was not considered an abomination to destroy Jerusalem in 70 ad, it was considered righteous judgment by God. Abomination that causes desolation is strictly a spiritual matter. The first time it happened was when Jesus spoke these words: Matt 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

I'm leaving you (desolation)because you're wicked and unrepentant (abomination).

Mark 13:14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Mark 13:35 KJVWatch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: 36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

He was preparing them for His arrival in Spirit, when the New Jerusalem would come down from heaven and Christ's sheep would be residents of the Holy City, in Spirit. This is a mind/mental/Spiritual thing.

 

[Douggg]

You're implying that an already spiritually desolate Jerusalem can experience an abomination of desolation a second time? 70ad was not an abomination, it was Christ's judgment being fulfilled. It was not considered an abomination to destroy Jerusalem in 70 ad, it was considered righteous judgment by God. Abomination that causes desolation is strictly a spiritual matter. The first time it happened was when Jesus spoke these words: Matt 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

I'm leaving you (desolation)because you're wicked and unrepentant (abomination).

Mark 13:14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Mark 13:35 KJVWatch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: 36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

He was preparing them for His arrival in Spirit, when the New Jerusalem would come down from heaven and Christ's sheep would be residents of the Holy City, in Spirit. This is a mind/mental/Spiritual thing.

Are you an idealist ?

 

[Twin_niwT]

Luke 21:20 KJV
And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Mark 13:14
But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:

These are two different signs. Jerusalem compassed with armies (in the physical world) is not an abomination, it's judgment. “standing where it out not” can't describe the armies because the armies were put there by God for the purpose of judgment. We simply can't conclude that these two versus are the same thing.

They don't match unless we give Luke's version spiritual meaning, then they match perfectly...

Spiritually speaking, Luke's “compassed with armies” means this:

Revelation 20:9-11
9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Luke's Jerusalem being compassed with armies (in the physical world) is a demonstration of a spiritual emanation which took place in the garden of Eden. It is symbolic of “abomination that causes desolation” because no unclean thing can touch or enter the temple, or Holy city of God. The armies represent filthy evil doers (such as the pharisees and their spineless, brainwashed slaves)who try to enter the temple and be one in spirit with God. This is an abomination that will lead to a person's spiritual desolation and destruction. Jesus was giving them a head's up to prevent them from getting caught in the spiritual cross fire, which no sheep is immune from if he or she backslides, or returns to the field, or vomit, like a dog.

 

[3 Resurrections]

But your screen-name does not indicate whether you are a futurist, a historicist, a partial- preterist, an idealist.

Not everyone fits squarely inside one of those selected categories you have listed. There are bits of truth found within all those viewpoints, and hopefully my paradigm unites all those various bits of truth in one homogenous whole that agrees with scripture.

 

[3 Resurrections]

You're implying that an already spiritually desolate Jerusalem can experience an abomination of desolation a second time? 70ad was not an abomination, it was Christ's judgment being fulfilled. It was not considered an abomination to destroy Jerusalem in 70 ad, it was considered righteous judgment by God. Abomination that causes desolation is strictly a spiritual matter. The first time it happened was when Jesus spoke these words: Matt 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

I wholeheartedly agree with this underlined statement of yours above. It WAS a righteous judgment by God in AD 70 that accomplished His righteous vengeance. But there is a separation between the wicked individuals as the tool in God's hands and the righteous judgment which God accomplished by using those means. Just like Christ's crucifixion. It was "by WICKED HANDS" that the crucifixion of Christ was carried out, but undeniably, this was an act of "determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God" that the crucifixion would also accomplish His righteous purposes (Acts 2:23).

Just so with the AD 70 destruction in Jerusalem. God had decreed by the prophets long ago that He would besiege Judea and Jerusalem (such as Zechariah 12-14). This would bring it down to the ground in righteous judgment for the blood of the prophets and saints for which it was guilty. But the wicked individuals who would accomplish this in no way escaped guilt for the way in which they slew their own Israelite brethren in the process. They were still called "abominable armies" in Daniel 9:27. God can make even the wrath of demon-possessed men to praise Him and accomplish His own righteous purposes, as He has shown many, many times in scripture. Even Satan-possessed Judas carried out God's "determinate counsel".

This abomination causing desolation was something that was going to be visually SEEN STANDING in a particular physical location. That "abomination that causes desolation" was not ONLY a spiritual matter. The spiritual always has an effect on the physical realm as well. Jerusalem which was filled with demon-possessed individuals in the AD 66-70 era (as Christ predicted in Matthew 12:43-45) caused great physical destruction and desolation as well as spiritual destruction on the people. Those combined spiritual and physical effects turned those 3-1/2 years into the "Great Tribulation" that had never been before and would never again be duplicated in the future from that time.

Jesus was giving them a head's up to prevent them from getting caught in the spiritual cross fire, which no sheep is immune from if he or she backslides, or returns to the field, or vomit, like a dog.

If this "abomination of desolation" was ONLY going to create "spiritual cross fire", then why in the world would it have been necessary for Christ to warn the disciples to physically and bodily flee from Judea and Jerusalem to avoid the plagues descending by God's vengeance upon them? One physical location would have been just as vulnerable as another if this was only a "spiritual cross fire".

 

[Douggg]

Not everyone fits squarely inside one of those selected categories you have listed. There are bits of truth found within all those viewpoints, and hopefully my paradigm unites all those various bits of truth in one homogenous whole that agrees with scripture.

Your views seems to me to be partial preterist.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Your views seems to me to be partial preterist.

Some of my views are. Some are not. A main Partial-Preterist that many would know by name told me my views are simply "bizarre". To him, that must seem true, since I expressed disagreement with him on quite a few points. He has since blocked all further comments of mine on his website. On one of the threads in this forum, somebody else put up a poll as to how people defined their eschatological position. When I responded, they suggested that I put a vote in the partial-preterist column, which I did, because some of my views are partial preterist. But not all.

Another person in the Post-millennial forum suggested that my views fit that forum pretty well. Some of my views do agree with the post-millennial optimism for our future. But that isn't a perfect fit for me either, since my millennial dates of a literal millennium ending in AD 33 isn't right by their position.

Full Preterists have told me I am a Futurist. To some extent, I am.
Futurists have told me I am a Full Preterist. Some of those FP views I have found to be correct, but not all, especially when it comes to the truth of our bodily resurrection promised by God for His saints, and a future bodily return of Christ when another resurrection event will take place.

Sorry I can't put up a category label for you, Douggg. Not really possible.

 

[Reborn-Adopted]

You're implying that an already spiritually desolate Jerusalem can experience an abomination of desolation a second time? 70ad was not an abomination, it was Christ's judgment being fulfilled. It was not considered an abomination to destroy Jerusalem in 70 ad, it was considered righteous judgment by God. Abomination that causes desolation is strictly a spiritual matter. The first time it happened was when Jesus spoke these words: Matt 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

I'm leaving you (desolation)because you're wicked and unrepentant (abomination).

Mark 13:14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Mark 13:35 KJVWatch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: 36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

He was preparing them for His arrival in Spirit, when the New Jerusalem would come down from heaven and Christ's sheep would be residents of the Holy City, in Spirit. This is a mind/mental/Spiritual thing.

Knowing GOD Is The Kingdom. That's why Scripture Says to not be ashamed of His Coming. The Root and Branch to The Relationship ended for Jews. It wasn't about a physical Temple falling ...It was about their Relationship falling.

Jews had a Covenant Relationship with GOD ...but their Sacrifices of animals was not good enough for them to Know GOD ...which is Eternal LIFE without needing animals to Sacrifice ...because you have The Door Closed to future sin. That's What JESUS' SACRIFICE Made Possible. not a license to sin ...but The Way to become Sanctified and Glorified.

The Living Relationship is The Kingdom.

Hebrews 10:1 KJV — For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually [make G5048] the comers thereunto [perfect G5048].

 

[Reborn-Adopted]

Luke 21:20 KJV
And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Mark 13:14
But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:

These are two different signs. Jerusalem compassed with armies (in the physical world) is not an abomination, it's judgment. “standing where it out not” can't describe the armies because the armies were put there by God for the purpose of judgment. We simply can't conclude that these two versus are the same thing.

They don't match unless we give Luke's version spiritual meaning, then they match perfectly...

Spiritually speaking, Luke's “compassed with armies” means this:

Revelation 20:9-11
9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Luke's Jerusalem being compassed with armies (in the physical world) is a demonstration of a spiritual emanation which took place in the garden of Eden. It is symbolic of “abomination that causes desolation” because no unclean thing can touch or enter the temple, or Holy city of God. The armies represent filthy evil doers (such as the pharisees and their spineless, brainwashed slaves)who try to enter the temple and be one in spirit with God. This is an abomination that will lead to a person's spiritual desolation and destruction. Jesus was giving them a head's up to prevent them from getting caught in the spiritual cross fire, which no sheep is immune from if he or she backslides, or returns to the field, or vomit, like a dog.

the abomination of desolation is putting JESUS on The Cross Instead of you Joining Him. many turned Him into an idol of death to worship, so you can keep the option to choose death in the future. many will do literally anything to keep satan's free will.

2 Thessalonians 2:2 KJV — That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 KJV — ... and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

their death worship is the abomination of desolation:
2 Thessalonians 2:4 KJV — Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 KJV — And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

many have a Relationship to GOD via a Dead Corpse that they put puppet strings on.

 

[Reborn-Adopted]

You can't choose death if you are already on a Cross:
John 21:19 KJV — This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

John 12:26 KJV — If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

John 17:24-25 KJV — Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

The Kingdom Relationship:
John 14:3 KJV — And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

 

[Reborn-Adopted]

Paul sure doesn't seem to care about a physically Resurrected body here ...he didn't even mention it ...cause it isn't going to happen:

Philippians 1:21-24 KJV — For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

1 Corinthians 15:34-36 KJV — Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

JESUS Physically Rose from the dead... you don't ...you die and Raise with Him Spiritually Because He Made It Possible to Do.

 

[Twin_niwT]

I wholeheartedly agree with this underlined statement of yours above. It WAS a righteous judgment by God in AD 70 that accomplished His righteous vengeance. But there is a separation between the wicked individuals as the tool in God's hands and the righteous judgment which God accomplished by using those means. Just like Christ's crucifixion. It was "by WICKED HANDS" that the crucifixion of Christ was carried out, but undeniably, this was an act of "determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God" that the crucifixion would also accomplish His righteous purposes (Acts 2:23).

Just so with the AD 70 destruction in Jerusalem. God had decreed by the prophets long ago that He would besiege Judea and Jerusalem (such as Zechariah 12-14). This would bring it down to the ground in righteous judgment for the blood of the prophets and saints for which it was guilty. But the wicked individuals who would accomplish this in no way escaped guilt for the way in which they slew their own Israelite brethren in the process. They were still called "abominable armies" in Daniel 9:27. God can make even the wrath of demon-possessed men to praise Him and accomplish His own righteous purposes, as He has shown many, many times in scripture. Even Satan-possessed Judas carried out God's "determinate counsel".

This abomination causing desolation was something that was going to be visually SEEN STANDING in a particular physical location. That "abomination that causes desolation" was not ONLY a spiritual matter. The spiritual always has an effect on the physical realm as well. Jerusalem which was filled with demon-possessed individuals in the AD 66-70 era (as Christ predicted in Matthew 12:43-45) caused great physical destruction and desolation as well as spiritual destruction on the people. Those combined spiritual and physical effects turned those 3-1/2 years into the "Great Tribulation" that had never been before and would never again be duplicated in the future from that time.


If this "abomination of desolation" was ONLY going to create "spiritual cross fire", then why in the world would it have been necessary for Christ to warn the disciples to physically and bodily flee from Judea and Jerusalem to avoid the plagues descending by God's vengeance upon them? One physical location would have been just as vulnerable as another if this was only a "spiritual cross fire".

I wholeheartedly agree with this underlined statement of yours above. It WAS a righteous judgment by God in AD 70 that accomplished His righteous vengeance. But there is a separation between the wicked individuals as the tool in God's hands and the righteous judgment which God accomplished by using those means. Just like Christ's crucifixion. It was "by WICKED HANDS" that the crucifixion of Christ was carried out, but undeniably, this was an act of "determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God" that the crucifixion would also accomplish His righteous purposes (Acts 2:23).

Just so with the AD 70 destruction in Jerusalem. God had decreed by the prophets long ago that He would besiege Judea and Jerusalem (such as Zechariah 12-14). This would bring it down to the ground in righteous judgment for the blood of the prophets and saints for which it was guilty. But the wicked individuals who would accomplish this in no way escaped guilt for the way in which they slew their own Israelite brethren in the process. They were still called "abominable armies" in Daniel 9:27. God can make even the wrath of demon-possessed men to praise Him and accomplish His own righteous purposes, as He has shown many, many times in scripture. Even Satan-possessed Judas carried out God's "determinate counsel".

This abomination causing desolation was something that was going to be visually SEEN STANDING in a particular physical location. That "abomination that causes desolation" was not ONLY a spiritual matter. The spiritual always has an effect on the physical realm as well. Jerusalem which was filled with demon-possessed individuals in the AD 66-70 era (as Christ predicted in Matthew 12:43-45) caused great physical destruction and desolation as well as spiritual destruction on the people. Those combined spiritual and physical effects turned those 3-1/2 years into the "Great Tribulation" that had never been before and would never again be duplicated in the future from that time.


If this "abomination of desolation" was ONLY going to create "spiritual cross fire", then why in the world would it have been necessary for Christ to warn the disciples to physically and bodily flee from Judea and Jerusalem to avoid the plagues descending by God's vengeance upon them? One physical location would have been just as vulnerable as another if this was only a "spiritual cross fire".

When I said it was strictly spiritual, I meant at the point Jesus spoke those words, nothing had yet happened in the physical world, therefor making them strictly spiritual. I believe the destruction of Jerusalem was a physical demonstration of spiritual desolation, not spiritual. I never said Jesus's words did not play out in the real world during the destruction of Jerusalem, or as you stated “If this "abomination of desolation" was ONLY going to create "spiritual cross fire", just that he was referring to spiritual truths, which I am much more interested in than worldly happenstances, which come and go.